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Old December 6, 2006, 05:11 PM   #1
Trapp
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Off the wall hunting rifles

So, I was thinking of what I am going to rifle hunt with this year. I will be going out with mainly, either the Sig SHR970 in 30'06, or my Win Model 88 in .358 win.

I got to thinking what other rifle I Could hunt with. This was brought on by me pulling out the ol Tommy Gun for an inspection (and cuz I haven't handled her in a while!!!). 45 ACP would definatly be suffice for deer around here (large Lab sized).

I think my 9mm sub 2k would be underkill unless I went for a head shot at a relatively close range (within 50yds)

One of my AK's or SKS's would do the job. Would my AK pistol do it though!? If not, it would scare the deer to death with it's muzzle blast!

Anyone else going to bring a "non hunting rifle" out to hunt with?
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Old December 6, 2006, 05:36 PM   #2
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Why would you want to bring a "non hunting rifle" out to hunt with when you have 2 hunting rifles that would work great? The others are assault weapons and are not made to hunt with. Not saying that wouldn't kill a deer with it if hit right, but why take the chance when you have a 30-06 that will work great. No sense in taking the chance of wounding an animal just because you want to use a different weapon when you have 2 that are made for hunting.
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Old December 6, 2006, 05:49 PM   #3
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maybe because he might need to know what the various other guns are capable of in an environment which might require a weapon more suitable for multiple tasks.

can't know that unless you have tried it...although, you of course want to stay within legal limits as far as magazine capacity.

The question was "what rifle COULD I hunt with" not "what rifle am I GOING to hunt with" as in tomorrow.
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Old December 6, 2006, 05:55 PM   #4
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You could hunt with an EBR if it's big enough caliber. I would never hunt with my AR because it's a .223 and that just isn't big enough, IMO. My .243 is the minimum, I think. So if you have a .308 you could go for it. A longer rifle barrel instead of a carbine would be better too.

I would leave the potato guns and marshmallow guns at home, though.

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Old December 6, 2006, 06:15 PM   #5
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I think that the SKS and AK will work but i say this cautiously because i saw my brother hit a smal mule deer buck a solid five times (five bullets recovered) with his SKS and it still took a while before that little sucker fell over.

Know the limitations and capability of any weapon you take out into the field.
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Old December 6, 2006, 07:00 PM   #6
Trapp
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I guess the
Quote:
Anyone else going to bring a "non hunting rifle" out to hunt with?
Was kinda misleading. I didn't even realize I phrased it that way. No I don't plan on it, just thinking.....

How about pistols though? I think my Sig229 in 40s&w would work. Especially at my bowhunting area (20 yds furthest shot). Heck! in that case, the AR or the AK pistol would most likely work. I am going to hunt with my Ruger SBH 44mag (7.5" bbl)
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Old December 6, 2006, 07:12 PM   #7
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I think if you go non-traditional, it's better for the game and our reputation if you use plenty o' gun. Milsurps in 8mm mauser, etc. will do the job fine, if your rifle and you are accurate enough with irons. I plan to hunt with an AR10 in .308, but haven't yet. The main reason I want to hunt with it is because the "tac" sling (3 point sling), with "african carry" lends itself *very* well to stalk/still hunting, for having the rifle at the ready without exhausting your arms carrying it at the ready. Also, I have in my head that for elk or other tough critters, a quick second shot (intentional double tap) from the semi-auto would increase your likelihood of recovery, with a good blood trail.
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Old December 6, 2006, 08:44 PM   #8
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I agree with FF that Non-Traditional might have been a better term. The biggest problem with hunting with an AK, SKS, or your Tommy would be finding 5 round Mags to make them legal in my State. Talk about a funny looking Tommy Gun can you imagine a 5 round mag, probably wouldn't even stick out of the well.
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Old December 9, 2006, 02:40 PM   #9
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how 'bout a 32-40...It worked for Buffalo Bill...
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Old January 1, 2007, 09:07 PM   #10
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Think about the DEER one shot Humane kill, you have a moral obligation to what you hunt, and the ones that hunt with you,
Good luck and GOD BLESS
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Old January 2, 2007, 03:15 AM   #11
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"...a solid five times..." What bullet? Hit where? And please don't tell us he sprayed and prayed. You know about http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/?
Neither a 9mm or .45ACP is enough for deer of any size. In most cases, an AK isn't accurate enough. The 7.62 x 39 with proper bullets will do though, but the rifle, be it an AK, SKS or Mini-30 MUST be accurate enough to hit a 9" pie plate every time at 100 yards.
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Old January 2, 2007, 10:47 AM   #12
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Yeah, I'm not sure that the 9mm/.45 are good choices. I've seen pictures of other members who've taken deer with very precise shots, but I'd prefer more power for a deer round.

Deer are tougher than humans.

Edited to add: if your deer are on the small side, I would think that a good 125 grain soft-point 7.62 round would work fine; just limit your range and choose your shot carefully.
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Old January 2, 2007, 11:13 AM   #13
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I imagine all of us come up with off-the-wall ideas from time to time. That's half the fun of talking about all manner of things.

Still, the overarching deal with hunting is ethics. Quick, clean, ethical kill, with respect for the animal. For me, that includes pests as well as game animals.

"Use enough gun," as Ruark said. Okay; but a a little extra never isn't a bad idea.

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Old January 2, 2007, 12:22 PM   #14
CU74
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Don't forget to check your hunting laws.

Your local hunting regulations may eliminate one or more of your options. As an example, the 45ACP is illegal for deer hunting here in Kansas.
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Old January 2, 2007, 12:56 PM   #15
Trapp
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Quote:
but the rifle, be it an AK, SKS or Mini-30 MUST be accurate enough to hit a 9" pie plate every time at 100 yards.
No, not really. If I hunt in my bow hunting spot and the furthest I would shoot is 20-25 yds. Why demand 100yd accuracy? Why not 40 yd accuracy?
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Old January 2, 2007, 03:36 PM   #16
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Using a pistol??? Using off the wall ammo???

Many of those that train defesnive pistol shooting say that a pistol should only be used in a gunfight as a distraction while your'e getting to your rifle. As addressed repeatedly already, defensive pistols (not the single-shot scoped pistols that fire rifle bullets) and pistol calibre ammo are not ideal for taking game of any size.

The milsurp ammo used with AK and SKS rifles is almost always FMJ. If you decide to try it, I do hope you use rounds that are optimized for hunting such as soft point.
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Old January 2, 2007, 04:12 PM   #17
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Quote:
"Use enough gun," as Ruark said. Okay; but a a little extra never isn't a bad idea.
I suppose that it is better to have a little more power than you need, instead of needing it and not having it.

Much like beer.
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Old January 2, 2007, 05:23 PM   #18
Trapp
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Quote:
pistol calibre ammo are not ideal for taking game of any size.
I am going to wave the BS flag on this. Deer can be taken with .357 out of a pistol, 44 mag, Rabbits and squirrel with a .22 and the list can go on. 45ACP can and has taken deer.

*Disclaimer*
People must have gotten the idea that I like to maim animals. I have only ever lost one mammal (and a few birds), a feral hog. I searched for over six hours with 4 other people. Lost him in a swamp. I still beat myself up over that one. Maiming animals is against my ethics. Killing them humanly is what I strive to do. I won't take a shot past 100yds. Why? Not because I am a bad shot, but because I don't practice further than that. I don't shoot at running deer, I count lost animals as part of my bag limit (only birds and one hog so far)....anyway i seem to be rambling. You get my point (I hope).

This is a discussion about "Non Traditional" hunting rifles, or pistols for that matter. The key word there is Discussion. I am not endorsing or planning on going out and "just seeing" if my Bersa .380 could kill a deer, or if my SKS's battle sights really can reach out to 600 yards and still kill.
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Old January 2, 2007, 05:28 PM   #19
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Quote:
Neither a 9mm or .45ACP is enough for deer of any size.
So a 120 pound deer at 30 yds would definatly not drop with a 45ACP to the vitals?

Canadian deer are twice to five (yes 5) times as big as the deer down here. They are a different species (sub-species?). Rarely is a 200 lb deer even heard of (from a friends, brother's, uncles, sister's aunt....) around here.
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Old January 2, 2007, 06:09 PM   #20
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Quote:
So a 120 pound deer at 30 yds would definatly not drop with a 45ACP to the vitals?
It might, or it might not. Why take the chance? And if it doesn't drop, then you get to start trackin'.
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Old January 2, 2007, 07:04 PM   #21
Trapp
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Just for the sake of arguement....

No, I take that back: discussion....
caliber muzzle velocity ft lbs bullet
44mag 1100 806 300gr jsp
45ACP 1000 410 185gr jhp
357mag 1050 441 180gr fpj

.357 is an accepted hunting round down here up to 50 yds. I imagine the 44mag, an accepted hunting round up to 75yds (or more) would have similar ballistics (at 75yds) as the 45acp at 20-30 yds.

To be fair an optimal hunting load on the .44mag would have up to 1011 ft lbs of energy (max load 250gr bullet)

Another "fun fact": out of a rifle you can push up to 642 ft lbs of energy and a 1250 ft per sec muzzle velocity out of the same 185 gr bullet.
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Old January 2, 2007, 11:29 PM   #22
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Trapp, just have to comment:

.357 mag: 180gr hardcast. 6" GP100. 1350 FPS. 728 fpe.

I think that 440# from a .357 is pretty conservative compared to what can be had commercially (corbon) and personally handloaded.
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Old January 2, 2007, 11:53 PM   #23
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Trapp, the numbers for the handgun magnum rounds work fine if you limit your distance and pick your shot carefully. I still wouldn't use a .45 ACP on a deer, regardless of the distance involved.

Quote:
I imagine the 44mag, an accepted hunting round up to 75yds (or more) would have similar ballistics (at 75yds) as the 45acp at 20-30 yds.
I have to admit that you have a good imagination. According to Winchester: a .240 grain .44 Mag produces 741 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle, 623 pounds at 50 yards, and 543 pounds at 100 yards. The .45 ACP can't even come close to the power of a .44 Mag; the 230 grain round produces 396 foot pounds at the muzzle, 366 pounds at 50 yards, and 340 pounds at 100 yards. You can use a lighter round in the .45 ACP, but they only produce a little more energy, and they sacrifice weight and penetration, and they still can't compare to the .44 Mag.

Simply put, after traveling 100 yards, the .44 Mag round is significantly more powerful than a round immediately exiting the barrel of a .45 ACP pistol.
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Old January 3, 2007, 12:04 AM   #24
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I am buying a few Ak based firearms to hunt with. If they are legal why not hunt with them?

One day this will be my shotgun
http://www.360wd.com/images/goodies/S-12money-web.jpg

or
http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?...e=post&id=9776

(With shorter mags)
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Old January 3, 2007, 12:21 PM   #25
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Using "lesser" cartridges demands a higher level of skill and calls for common sense.

Sure, using a .45ACP on Bambi isn't anybody's first choice, generally. Way limited on range and power. but for those with the skill and patience, the .45ACP can be used successfully. Just because I wouldn't doesn't necessarily mean nobody should.

Anecdote example: My uncle "worked" his cattle via an old WW II Harley 45 motorcycle. He didn't like horses. The deer on his lttle ranch were used to the putt-chugga, and mostly just stood around when he was out checking around the pasture. Every now an then one would sorta volunteer, standing still at fifteen or so yards. Out with the trusty 1911 and a bullet between the eyes and so began the dirty work.

Sure, there's the "A man's gotta know his limitations," stuff, but a man's gotta know the limitations of his gear, as well.

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