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Old December 6, 2006, 08:48 AM   #1
Red Grant
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Jeff Cooper and double action.............

In December/2006 issue of SWAT, Briefing room section:

Rich Lucibella talks about late Col. Cooper.


An excerpt from Page 6, Paragraph 5:

Quote:
Cooper demanded critical thinking from his students and regularly exposed new technology and training methods for what they were: solutions in search of non-existent problems.



I believed that famous term, "Solutions in search of non-existent problems" was first coined by Cooper in regard to Double action semi-autos.


However, I also believe either in late 80's or sometime in 90's, in his "Cooper's corner" section in Guns and Ammo, Cooper stated:

Quote:
"For those who are satisfied with minor calibers, they will find Walther P-5 to be a very interesting little pistol."
or something like that.

P-5 is obviously a 9mm Para, and has no manual safety features (except a few limited runs with cross bolt safety), and has bottom mag release (except P5C), besides both its DA/SA was quite bad, certainly quite a bit worse than Sig Sauer P226.

.
So why did Cooper "endorse" P-5?



Has he "mellowed" out in his views on DA semi-autos later in his life?





As for me, I started with DA/SA, and still believe that those who don't train seriously on regular basis, it's the best, meaning "safest" set-up both for them and those around them. (I know a lot gunsmiths specializing in 1911 hate my guts for saying it. I guess they feel that I'm threatening their livelihood.)

For those who do train seriously on regular basis, I agree with Cooper.


But, after all, how many gun owners train seriously on regular basis?
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Old December 6, 2006, 09:40 AM   #2
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About 5 years ago I wrote a letter to Uncle Jeff, describing my positive experiences with this SIG P220. In order to shoot my best and fully appreciate the 220 though, I had to shoot it to the exclusion of everything else- including the 1911.

Uncle Jeff was polite, professional, and concise; and he appreciated the effort to excel at any endeavor. But he was not amused. As recently as five years ago, he still saw the DA as a solution in search of a question.

I think the best plan is to look forward instead of back. Cooper contributed greatly to defensive pistolcraft, and one should study and benefit from his work. IF the DA is what works for you however- learn it until it is second nature; commit yourself to mastering it; and push yourself to shoot it better than anything you have ever shot before.

Cooper would appreciate that, regardless of whether he approved of your particular choice of weapons.
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Old December 6, 2006, 11:55 AM   #3
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If I remember correctly, the good Col. was also very enthusiastic about the CZ75 as well as the Bren 10, both of which were DA mode.

So, as he got older, he must have found something of a solution.
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Old December 6, 2006, 01:24 PM   #4
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This is more appropriate in General Handguns forum.
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Old December 6, 2006, 02:15 PM   #5
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The school of thought as to why Cooper liked the CZ 75 was that you could pretend it wasn't a DA/SA by carrying it C&L. I almost never fire my 75 in DA mode. When I rack the slide, the hammer is back. There is no manual decock on the B model. I see no point in doing something less safe to get me where I don't want to be.

My next gun will be a more traditional DA/SA and I'll just have to see how I like that.
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Old December 6, 2006, 03:31 PM   #6
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Copper contradicted himself of many occasions in his writings. Read one thing then a few years latter read they exact opposite.
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Old December 6, 2006, 04:20 PM   #7
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DA revolver?

As I believe I once read, he also found that under certain circumstances, it was acceptable to carry a J frame snubbie concealed, in cases where the full sized 45 could not be carried or concealed, so that he was not totally unarmed. So he must have mastered the DA revolver action for those situations? Anyone else recall that?
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Old December 6, 2006, 05:24 PM   #8
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Tom2: He also supported DA revolvers in .44SPL for police agencies that didn't want to switch to the 1911. Col. Cooper was a believer in major-caliber revolvers, too. (Why G&A never had him and Elmer Keith compete in a friendly shoot-off is the greatest of disappointments... )

While I disagreed with him on hardware (esp. the .38SPL & DA autos), I do wholeheartedly acknowledge and respect his experience. I also respect and agree with his philosophy on life, truth, and citizenship. Too bad we never elected that man (or someone like him) as President...
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Old December 6, 2006, 06:59 PM   #9
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I've always been a fan of the Colonel. I have most of his books, and have read most all of them more than once too. While I agree with a lot of what he said, I also know that its all just his opinion, and he, like the rest of us, are not always right. I think in order to be reasonably proficient with all firearms, you need to learn and constantly practice with all types. Not doing so is a major disservice to yourself. If all you learn to shoot well is a 1911, you have only learned one thing. Seems to me, this goes against a lot of the Colonels own teachings or philosophies.

Personally, I think Bruce Lee offered a better solution. Learn as much as you can, about everything you can, and take only what is useful to you from each. Works for me.
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Old December 6, 2006, 07:20 PM   #10
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Quote:
Copper contradicted himself of many occasions in his writings. Read one thing then a few years latter read they exact opposite.
This is not contradiction on the great Colonel's behalf. He was not afraid to change his mind on things. He was ever changing, constantly evolving.

The DA revolver is nothing like a DA/SA auto. Two completely different creatures. It amkes complete sense to endorse the DA wheelgun, but shun the DA autogun.
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Old December 6, 2006, 07:28 PM   #11
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Quote:
It amkes complete sense to endorse the DA wheelgun, but shun the DA autogun.
Can you maybe expand on this?
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Old December 6, 2006, 07:43 PM   #12
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I believe Cooper had an issue with the DA first shot and then the single action subsequent shots on a DA Auto. On a revolver, each shot is going to work in DA. The "Crunch and then tick tick tick" was what he did not like
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Old December 6, 2006, 07:49 PM   #13
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The DA wheelgun is DA by necessity, without getting into the intracacies of the Mateba and Fosberry desings. The design does not provide for the recocking of subsequent rounds, nor does it facilitate the carrying of the gun cocked and locked. Furthermore, the DA wheelgun offers the same trigger pull for each shot. IMO, the DAO auto is a much better choice than a DA/SA auto.

The auto design is at its pinnacle with the SAO design. It provides the maximum amount of safety combined with the most shootable trigger pull available.
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Old December 6, 2006, 09:48 PM   #14
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Having spoken to people who met him through his training courses:
Before he was a believer in 1911's, he thought the DA revolver was the be all and end all.
He was a man of very strong beliefs, though when he trained people he also made it clear that he was teaching what worked for him. Everybody needs a solution that works for them. So he did allow that his way was not the only way, but it was the way he believed was best.
He did change and evolve, but mostly in geological time frames.

True or not? Hard to say. As a magazine writer it is better to emphasize certain things and take stronger stands than you might absolutely do as a private person. Unless you were sly and manipulative like Askins and purposely contradict yourself to stir controversy and debate.
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Old December 7, 2006, 12:04 AM   #15
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Colonel Cooper was a man of his time. i.e., the late 19th and early 20th century.

I suppose the main thing that I will always remwember aqbout him was his blatant and strident sexism. I have worked side by side with some vgery competent and able female LEOs, and Colonel Cooper's sarcastic comments about "cop chicks" were way off base, and patently offensive to me.

His comments about the inability to "learn" trigger transition from DA to SA, in my opinion were intellectual laziness. Anyone can learn to shoot a DA, either revolver or semi-auto well, but it requires more effort than a straight SA. Apparently, the good Colonel wasn't willing to invest the effort to learn this skill.

I also find it interesting that nearly all of his writings made at least a passing reference to his service in the Marine Corps. While the good colonel advocated "cocked and locked," the marine corps, (as well as the army, air force, navy and coast guard) by regulation, demanded that the 1911 be carried with an empty chamber!

He had a strong, and lasting influence on gun magazine writing and competitive shooting, some good and some bad. But mainly, he was man of his time, and that time is long gone.
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Old December 7, 2006, 04:03 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liliysdad
IMO, DAO auto is a much better choice than a DA/SA.

If you were to limit to more recent variety of DAOs (the ones designed to be DAO from grounds up, striker fired ones, not just conversion of traditional DA/SA to DAO) then I would agree.


If you were to refer to DAO autos of the yore, you know , the DAO hammer fired ones, then I would have to disagree.



Quote:
Originally Posted by liliysdad
The auto design is at its pinnacle with SAO design.

I agree for those who train seriously and on regular basis.




Quote:
Originally Posted by croyance
Unless you were sly and manipulative like Askins and purposely contradict yourself to sirt up controversy and debate.


Can you provide me an ancedote or two about that?


I don't know that much about Askins, but would be eager to know.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cheygriz
Colonel Cooper was a man of his time. i.e., the late 19th and early 20th century.

He was. There's something very distinctively and deliciously authentic "American", both good and bad, about men like him from those era.


Not that I agree with or endorse everything about those eras.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cheygriz
I suppose the main thing that I always will remwember about him was his blatant and strident sexism.


I don't blame you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cheygriz
I have worked side by side with some vgery competent and able female LEOs, ..........


Me, too.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cheygriz
........and Colonel Cooper's sarcastic comments about "cop chicks" were way off base, ........


I agree, they were, but............



Quote:
Originally Posted by cheygriz
.......and patently offensive to me.


Sigh.........I know I am supposed to say I was offended, too, but I found it a "guilty pleasure".........something that I could never admit in public, but made me chuckle in private.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cheygriz
Anyone can learn to shoot DA, eithe revolver or semi-auto well, but it requires more effort than SA.

True enough.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cheygriz
His comments about the inability to "learn" trigger transition from DA to SA, in my opinion were intellectual laziness.

I think it was more or less his view that one can spend one's time more productively (if one is willing to devote serious amount of time and effort) by learning to shoot SAO semi-autos safely and accurately instead of learning the trigger transition from DA to SA for a DA/SA semi-autos.

After all, given everything else equal, on overall, one can always shoot more accurately from SAO, than any other kind of semi-auto trigger mechnaism.

Yes, safety is an issue, and that's why I had stated previously, it's for those who are willing to spend serious effort on regular basis. (One's proficiency in handguns atrophy pretty quickly without more or less frequent "work outs".)



Quote:
Originally Posted by cheygriz
Apparently, the good Colonel wasn't willing to invest the effort to learn this skill.

Why should he have been? Didn't he know already how to shoot SAO safely and accurately?


Quote:
Originally Posted by cheygriz
But mainly, he was a man of his time, and that time is long gone.


And I will miss him and that time, too. (Only the good parts, not the bad parts, or at least not really bad parts.).


Don't you enjoy "Retro" sometimes?
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Old December 7, 2006, 07:01 AM   #17
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Quote:
But mainly, he was man of his time, and that time is long gone.
The time for Colonelr Cooper is now, when we need him most. His kind, however, is fading fast, being replaced with blleding hearts and metrosexuals. Replaced by those who are "offended" by something they read in a magazine. I, for one, am tired of political correctness. If a man doesnt feel that a female cop can do the job, he should be able to say so without hurting someones feelings.

Colonel Cooper was a great Man, and a great American. He invented, evolved, and passed around the Modern Pistol Technique. He was the single most influential pistolero in the 20th century. His torch has been passed to a selct few, but it will not burn forever.
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Old December 7, 2006, 09:42 AM   #18
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Hold up a second...

Quote:
The DA wheelgun is DA by necessity. The design does not provide for the recocking of subsequent rounds, nor does it facilitate the carrying of the gun cocked and locked.
Precisely how is this an advantage over a DAO auto pistol?

Quote:
Furthermore, the DA wheelgun offers the same trigger pull for each shot. IMO,
And so does every DAO, and pre-sprung DAO autopistol on the market - there are many. No difference.


Quote:
the DAO auto is a much better choice than a DA/SA auto.
Yes, I tend to agree that it's superior to a crunchenticker because of trigger pull, but comparing it now to the most popular trigger type, the pre-sprung DAO, it's the same or possibly inferior.
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Old December 7, 2006, 06:20 PM   #19
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Once you take the short time necessary to learn to shoot a DA/SA pistol, there is no difference between it and a SA, or any other pistol. Most people who bitch about them never took the time to learn to shoot them. The 1911 is a great pistol, but then again, so are my DA/SA and DAO SIG's. They are all easy to shoot well with, and all are accurate enough. I see no difference in my double taps, or first round hits, between any of them.

Its all about practice and training. I still say your doing yourself a major disservice by not learning to shoot everything possibly available. Its not the weapons fault if you cant pick it up and make it work and shoot it well, regardless of what it is, and no matter what any guru says. I have a suspicion that the Colonel would have had little trouble shooting a DA/SA gun well, whether he liked it or not.
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Old December 7, 2006, 06:32 PM   #20
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I carried and trained with a Sig 220 for a long time. Fantastic gun, but the DA/SA mode of operation is an excuse for lack of training, not something to be trained for.
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Old December 7, 2006, 06:47 PM   #21
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How do you figure its an excuse for lack of training? Its no harder to sweep off the safety on a 1911 than it is to pull the trigger on a P220. Its just a difference in manual of arms, nothing more.
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Old December 7, 2006, 06:59 PM   #22
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In my opnion, it is a crutch for those who are unwilling, or unable by policy, to carry a firearm that operates in the SAO mode. It is more difficult to shoot well than a 1911 with a safety, as the first shot is not consistent with the rest.

By the way, I shot at least a 95% everytime I qualified with my 220. However, I feel the SA auto is much more shootable platform than any other option. LE departments are beginning to understand its a training issue, not an equipment one, as more and more agencies are allowing the 1911 as a duty weapon.

For those who refuse to train, or dont have the oppurtunity or ability to do so, the DA/SA is an acceptable wepon. However, I feel that one would be much better served with a DAo gun, or one of the newer amalgamations thereof, such as the LEM, DAK, or the Glock system. For me, the 1911 is where its at.
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Old December 7, 2006, 07:24 PM   #23
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I'm not aware of ANY major LE agencies that allow single actions cocked and locked. Perhaps a few backwater departments do, but tell me which major agency allows it? FBI? DEA? BATFE? The military? LAPD? NYPD? Houston PD? Any state police agencies??? Any European agencies??
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Old December 7, 2006, 07:31 PM   #24
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Quote:
How do you figure its an excuse for lack of training? Its no harder to sweep off the safety on a 1911 than it is to pull the trigger on a P220. Its just a difference in manual of arms, nothing more.
Exactly

Quote:
In my opnion, it is a crutch for those who are unwilling, or unable by policy, to carry a firearm that operates in the SAO mode. It is more difficult to shoot well than a 1911 with a safety, as the first shot is not consistent with the rest.
No offense but this is just a dumb argument. Why? Well first of all because while it may hold true for you it's not true for all. I do not find the DA/SA action transition to hurt my shooting. Secondly I'm not unwilling on unable to carry SAO, I just happened to really like a gun that doesn't come in DAO. And since I like DA/SA just fine it's not a problem or a "crutch" for me.
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Old December 7, 2006, 07:43 PM   #25
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Quote:
I'm not aware of ANY major LE agencies that allow single actions cocked and locked. Perhaps a few backwater departments do, but tell me which major agency allows it? FBI? DEA? BATFE? The military? LAPD? NYPD? Houston PD? Any state police agencies??? Any European agencies??
Las Vegas Metro PD
Denver PD
Tacoma PD
LAPD SWAT
FBI HRT
Maricopa County Sheriff's Dept
Texas Rangers, Texas DPS
Talahasse, FL PD
Alberquerque, NM PD
Austin, TX PD
Salt Lake City PD
Tarrant County, TX Sheriff’s Dept
Dallas County, TX Sheriffs Dept
Harris County, TX Sheriffs Dept
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