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Old November 28, 2006, 07:16 PM   #51
Edward429451
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I agree. Qualifying on a course even with a perfect score does not make one a rifleman. Maybe a certified apprentice! Kind of like being a journeyman plumber doesn't make one a master.
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Old November 28, 2006, 07:45 PM   #52
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Just to keep this going in the right direction, refer to pages #1 and #2, before posting in #3.

Edward429451, very well said indeed.
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Old November 28, 2006, 08:50 PM   #53
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I'd almost forgotten about Jeff Cooper's (RIP) quote on rifles, subjects and citizens...

To me, that is very important - Hunting is fun, shooting cans in the gravel pit is a blast, but keeping up your rifle skills in case you need them is the goal.

I'm lucky enough to be as close to the woods as the nearest gun club. I haven't joined yet, but the social aspects are compelling.



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Old November 28, 2006, 10:56 PM   #54
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I wouldn't even know where to begin in finding you as answer...

As to why the true rifleman has appeared to have become an endangered Speices Brother. I'll take it one step further and and go as far as to say that no ONE problem exists as the main cause either. Some of it has to do with the Attitudes of allot of the next generation coming up; one side being a bunch of tree hugging fairies and the other being video game addicts with no realistic perception of life (especially guns). Both ways of thinking being flawed for their poor attitudes towards firearms.

Just like a lot of you mentioned I grew up arounds guns. My Dad made sure that I had nothing but respect for a weapon. Handling a gun on my own was a sense of accomplishment and pride for me. It was through this that guns became a part of life.
Ambition tends to bring out the best in some people, and spending so much time with me trusty steel over long Summers working on my dad's land and watchin out for his cattle gave me the time to hone my Marksmanship skills in the Rainforrests of Glenwood. When time permitted I would go stalking for Pheasents, Bull Frogs (for their legs) and once in a great while Hogs as the herds migrated down from higher elevations during the cooler winter months.

It's the 'bonding' with guns as kids that gives us our somtimes misunderstood admiration and appreciation for firearms later in life. It's what drives us to excell in our skills with that weapon and what nourtures our understanding and appreciation as well. Riflemen aren't born, they are created.
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Old February 27, 2007, 01:19 PM   #55
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I spent about a hour reading this post.

I was not aware that there was such a post until one person invited me to read it.

I'm not here to beat a dead horse and I did not make my name up because of this post.

Out of all the guns that I have ever owned, my rifle is my best friend.

I would take it to church with me if I could.

My goal in life was to find a gun that did it all.
That instilled so much confidence in my shooting ability that I knew that all I had to do was point and shoot.
No need to think about where I had the sling, where my body was pointed, no worries that I might not be good enough to get the job done.

I went through the Model 70's and the best ones I had was a Pre 64' 220 Swift and a Pre 64' 308.
With all the calibers of guns out there and all the new gimic calibers that they come out with that are supposted to be the next great thing.
The 220 Swift is a real screamer.
But it is not a deer caliber of gun and a person that hunts to eat would never carry it on a deer hunt.

The 308 is just fine for deer, just that after you shoot a couple you get bored with one shot one kill deer.

There has to be more of a challenge.

I have a Savage Model 110 or it's likeness that was made about 1936.

It had a 4x Weaver scope and a Williams mount that you could flip over to get access to the open sights.

What you would want to do that for I would never know.

I made my reputation with that old gun.

I could put 4 hand loaded 06' bullets in a 1 inch circle at 200 yards just as easy as you could do it with a .17 HRM.

It wasn't a pretty gun, it didn't have any high power optics or even a good scope mount.

It was just something that Savage should never stop making.

A real nice trigger from the factory that isn't creapy and breaks at the same point everytime.

A real rifleman does not remember the shots he made.
He remembers the ones that he missed.
Because the ones that you miss are the ones that you learn from. What did I do wrong? What happened to the rifle / scope when I missed? Did the sound of the shot sound any different than all the rest?

Was it my fault or was it the gun / scope? Or was it my fault?

When you get to the point where you can shoot 100 yards and you can tell the person beside you where you hit on the target as soon as you pulled the trigger without looking at the target in your scope = that is a Rifleman!

But shooting targets does not make you a rifleman.

When the targets are running through the woods with trees and brush and you are running after them with your chest heaving and can still make your shots count. That is a rifleman.

Last edited by The Gamemaster; February 27, 2007 at 04:39 PM.
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Old February 27, 2007, 02:21 PM   #56
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A veritable one-man crusade, as it were...

Initiated by "Fred" of Fred's M14 stocks, some time ago. Others have since glommed onto the concept, witness Kim duToit's creed of "Nation of Riflemen", etc. Makes for good lip service, and should play out nicely once the U.N. blue helmets come marching up one's street, tinfoil hattery notwithstanding.

Fred lost all sorts of credibility with me (and others) when he drew the defining line of "rifleman" as being somebody who owned something better than an AK or SKS, the latter group of which he felt should be relegated to cook status for the benefit of the rest of his "real riflemen".

Personally, I own many, many military-pattern guns that can be perceived as "better" than an AK, and did the Camp Perry thing for a few years with my M14NM. But Fred pulled a Zumbo out of his own posterior with his comments, because I'd be a hell of a lot more afraid of somebody who owned a sad-looking AK and knew how to use it to full effect vs. somebody with a brand new M4gery, saddled with lasers, phasers, and wind speed indicators who couldn't even clear a stoppage let alone change the batteries in his new "tactical" toy.

I go hunting every year. I've got all sorts of tools to do the trick. Last year, I used an AK, and my freezer's full of venison. Granted, the deer wasn't charging my position with blue helmet affixed and guns blazing, but to have the skill and confidence to drop your moving quarry with one well-placed shot speaks does much to ingrain the proper mindset.

In other words, one needn't cast aspersion at the tools of your fellow rifleman. As stated by others in this thread, it ain't the tools that makes the rifleman, Fred!

Case in point: I won't call myself one of Fred's Illustrious Riflemen, but I can grab my (now ubiquitous) SLR-95 or even my icky-poo sidefolder SAR-1 and snap engage a 100-meter lifesize steel owl target while standing offhand, making it swing with a solid hit every round. I've been doing it for about 12 years now, often to entertain others who don't like Mikhail Kalashnikov's invention, more to keep myself sharp at taking accurate snap shots starting at 100 meters. I've also just retired from a 20+ year military career, where I qualified and carried variants of the M16 each year. I'm under no illusions that I cannot engage man-sized targets if need be, I can hold my own and make an aggressor's life pure living hell, assuming they don't bring along crew served weapons or artillery. Otherwise I'll revert to escape and evasion, thankyouverymuch.

Does that make me one of Fred's vaunted Riflemen? Dunno, and don't really care. If Fred would just come out and say "Take a kid shooting", I believe it would be a lot more productive with respect to producing a new crop of "riflemen", vs. this whole "Appleseed" thing.

I believe it was the late Jeff Cooper who said,"It's not what you can do, it's what you can do on demand". Good words to remember.
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Old February 27, 2007, 05:01 PM   #57
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I'm still working on becoming a rifleman, not there as yet but I'm working on it!

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Old February 27, 2007, 06:41 PM   #58
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a rifle man is a person who is skilled with arifle and who lives buy it e.g. a soldier
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Old February 27, 2007, 11:03 PM   #59
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Well, now, Lane, I dunno 'bout that. I went to shooting a .22 rifle when I was seven and that was 65 years ago. Been pretty much useless ever since. I shot a Garand more before I went into the Army than while I was in. Killed a lot of tin cans, rabbits, coyotes and deer. Danged few second shots ever needed, except on tin cans. My general attitude is that if it's inside of 500 yards, I own it.

But I ain't a soldier no more, not since 1958.

Art
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Old February 28, 2007, 02:38 PM   #60
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I don't think that Lane understands the idea of a Militia.

That's what I always think about when I hear "Rifleman"....

That and a trick Win '92.



-tINY

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Old May 29, 2007, 07:48 AM   #61
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Not sure if I'm breaking any rules of thread necromancy, but I was invited to come read and post, so I will.

By any of the definitions here, I'm no R/rifleman. I've come from a country that since my age of majority, rifles are to be admired from afar, but not owned by honest men. I've plinked with pellet guns and airsoft guns and crossbows and all the other toys that my former goverment would allow me to have. Many years ago, I earned pocket money doing pest control on farms with nothing more than a .22 air rifle and ten yards of clear space..... But it's been many a year since I could shoot anywhere at all.

Then, I met a wonderful woman who brought me to this odd and wonderful land, where all of a sudden I was afforded more rights as a guest than I was as a citizen back "home". It's taken me a while, but I'm learning to embrace these freedoms, especially those that allow me to keep and bear arms in defence of those I care about.

I'm self taught, with all the horrors of form and posture and drill that implies. I learned the safety lessons thirty years ago from my father with my first pellet gun, but the discipline of the rifle is not so easy to acquire, especially on 50yd indoor ranges in the dark....

But, every time I load and aim and fire my rifle (and its soon to be siblings), I'm aiming for something other than the target. I'm aiming to better my control over myself, to calm myself body and mind and smooth away the tremblings of flesh and vacillations of spirit that make me shoot too soon or too late and spoil my aim.

I've yet to hit what I'm aiming at. I lack consistency, I second guess myself and wait too long to shoot. I still cling to the crutch of a rest other than my own self for assistance and would rather prop myself against some solid object to aim. If there's one ragged hole in the target it's a figment of my imperfect eyesight or some imperfection in the paper itself.

But..... I've met some goals and learned some things on the way.

I can put every round I aim and shoot into centre mass at 50yds, which while not the accuracy of a match shooter at least gives me some confidence in defending my home and those I love and in my community.

I'm no longer surprised and hesitant at the sound and fury and flying hot brass shooting a rifle entails. I've mastered my fear and come to accept and even enjoy them as a part of the discipline.

I can strip, clean and reassemble my chosen rifle without reference to anything but the rifle itself and my own two hands.

I've learned to love the sight and smell of its well-worn wood and metal, passed amongst soldiers in a far off and embattled land, then on to me, as functional as the day it was issued.

I've learned to appreciate the freedom implicit in owning my rifle, the trust my fellow man has placed in me, a guest in their midst. I am not only trusted but empowered to own an implement that in the wrong hands could cause so much harm, but in the right hands so much good with little more than my word of honour as to my intent.

I've learned that others view the exercise of this basic freedom askance, and that often familiarity with the discipline and the act of shooting itself is all they need to overcome this prejudice. I'm no marksman or instructor, but I know enough to allow others to experience the rifle safely and make an
informed decision as to its place among us.

Every time, I learn a little more and get a little better. I apply what I learn to the totality of my knowledge and become a little less ignorant with each day. I have a little more confidence in my ability to exist outside the structure of the city and packaged modern convenience. I'm adding one more skill to allow me to survive without the crutch of modernity, and such skills are never superfluous even if they may never need to be exercised in dire straits.

I may never become a R/rifleman by any standards. But I will certainly become a better man for the trying.
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Old May 29, 2007, 12:09 PM   #62
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Congratulations NCLivingBrit!

It's always nice to see a person who likes guns and shooting suddenly be allowed to do so.

A few tips on informal offhand shooting:

With a rifle, align the iron sights then concentrate your focus on the aiming point on the target and let the properly aligned sights drift over it. This is especially important when using a scope. If you concentrate on the crosshairs it seems that the target never wants to center. It would be like trying to focus on a spot on your auto windshield and trying to align the car with the road using that spot.

The next tip is to take a little deeper breath when mounting the rifle and let some out as you aim. Too little oxygen is detrimental to shooting. Sometimes I "shallow breathe" when plinking strings of shots.

The last tip is to relax. It's easy with a rimfire, but with a rifle that recoils more, hold it tightly enough to the shoulder and grip the forend enough to keep it from rising, but a death grip will cause you to be very shaky. Find that happy medium that lets you shoot the best, preferably practicing without live ammo in the rifle. Use snap caps or empty shells that you replace after a couple of dry firings. I know that many military rifles can be dry-fired without major problems, but I prefer not to.

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Old May 29, 2007, 12:51 PM   #63
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I've already invested in a set of snap caps and have spent a few evenings in front of the PC sighting in on my living room artwork. My eyes need time to adjust to iron sights again, or I need new glasses already. The Yugo is pretty muzzle heavy, which is making things a little more trying, but it has highlighted my desk-job decrepitude and prompted me to do some work on my arm strength which should help.

Recoil I'm still working my way around. I put 100rds through my SKS the other day in a little under an hour. The stock is a trifle short for comfort, but I avoided death grip only to get some interesting (but light) bruises for my trouble. I'll learn to accomodate rather than simply endure centrefire recoil, but it's probably going to take a few more trips to the range

Much obliged for the advice, shooting a military surplus rifle is nothing like potting rats with a .22 airgun, I can tell you that.

Of course, being a glutton for punishment I am picking up a Mosin Nagant 91/30 tomorrow. Because obviously longer and more recoil is -just- what I need!
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Old May 29, 2007, 08:00 PM   #64
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There are riflemen and there are bench shooters.
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Old May 29, 2007, 08:14 PM   #65
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It reminds me of the glory days of England when everyone no matter how poor had to know how to use a bow. It was considered so vital that King Edward Longshanks decreed that the only sport practicable on a Sunday was archery. This lead to some of the most skilled archers the world had ever seen and no one ever successfully invaded Britain ever again and many battles were won on that skill alone against far more numerical enemies.

Makes me miss that such things are not practiced nowadays with the modern equivilent.
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Old May 30, 2007, 10:32 AM   #66
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MythBuster: Contrary to popular belief, there are also a few of us who not only are "riflemen" and "bench shooters", but also pretty good handgun and shotgun shooters/hunters.

It's a matter of enjoying a lifetime sport and having the opportunities to participate.

Maine...the way shooting sports should be...well, maybe for 9 months out of the year.

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Old May 30, 2007, 02:48 PM   #67
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As long as one is addicted to the bench they will never learn to be a real world rifleman.
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Old May 30, 2007, 07:14 PM   #68
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Quote:
It's a matter of enjoying a lifetime sport and having the opportunities to participate
Well said,, and that's why I started this thread.........


I agree with you as well MythBuster,,, but the bench has it's place in the world. It's really the only way to remove most of the human factors and find out if the particular rifle in question is worth a damn..........

Different strokes for different folks guys... Please don't start flaming and get this killer thread locked,, it has lasted quite a while..

We're all on the same side,, and we've got to stick together these days.....
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Old May 30, 2007, 09:00 PM   #69
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If you complete your objective with a rifle, to me you fit the title.
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Old May 30, 2007, 10:05 PM   #70
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I started my grandsons shooting from the bench, but they were only 5 years old and couldn't hold a rifle. They now love to shoot offhand, being 10 and 11, but it took some coaxing. I feel sorry for those who never work at shooting offhand. They'll never know what they're missing.

Some folks never make the transition to offhand. I started shooting when I was 10 and never saw a bench until in my late teens. I wore out 3 BB guns and a .22 rifle before I was 18. I then hunted woodchucks with a .30/06 for about 7 years and did pretty well. We never shot one from a rest under 100 yards and my longest chuck kill offhand was a head-only visible shot at 200 yards. The best game shot was a head shot on a flying crow offhand at 100 yards with a .22-250. Lucky, certainly luck played a role, but that's the only time I've ever tried it. (It was in a very safe location/direction.)

However, I still love to shoot rimfire benchrest, perhaps the easiest shooting sport to attempt, but the hardest one to win.

Picher
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Old May 31, 2007, 08:33 AM   #71
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I never said the bench does not have a use. My point was many shooters never leave the bench. These people have problems when they are required to hit a target without a bench.
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Old May 31, 2007, 02:47 PM   #72
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It's not surprising that many shooters never leave the bench since so many rifle ranges don't permit any shooting that is not on the bench. That said, a good rifleman is never above eschewing a good field expedient rest to improve the shot. That's because the most stable position is prone and the least is standing offhand.
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Old May 31, 2007, 05:24 PM   #73
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As a child, with my fathers coaching, i was a fair shot, comparable to the average hunter.

I stopped shooting regularly when i was a teen, and now have taken it back up after probably 10 years of only ocasional shooting.

I'll probably never be a true rifleman, but i'd like to work on becoming one.
I want to know how to do it. I see so much discussed on building rifles, loading ammuntion, scopes, bipods, etc. Something i wish was discussed more is the most basic principle of all. The art of shooting.

Its been a long time since ive shot with iron sights, and thats my goal.. to become a good 200 yard shot using irons. I'll need a better rifle for the job (nothing i own at the moment is well suited to the task)

I want to learn about different sight types, and correct sight pictures. I want to learn about how to use a sling, and the correct body positions for prone, sitting, and kneeling. I want to know how to develop muscle control for steady, consistent shots. I want to get better. And as i get better, I'd like to try more challanging shots.

Most people would answer this question by simply saying "Pratice!" but thats not the answer. No more than you'd tell somone preparing to get their drivers license to simply "drive" I want to learn techniques i can pratice. I want to learn from others experiences, and I want to try the things that worked for them, to see if they will work for me also. I want to pratice with a purpose. I want to know when i'm praticing something wrong. I do not want to be a "spray and pray" shooter. I want to develop that one shot confidence that many of you have.
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Old May 31, 2007, 05:32 PM   #74
Edward429451
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Start by reading The Art of the Rifle by Jeff Cooper. Most of that is in there.

Fantastic book.
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Old May 31, 2007, 08:26 PM   #75
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RedneckFur,, hit the link in post #7 of this thread..........
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