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Old November 22, 2006, 10:17 PM   #26
STLRN
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Riflemen is technically an MOS. For the Marines Corps it is 0311, the army it is 11B.

I am a bit of an iconoclast, I believe allot of the talk of what a riflemen is and isn't focus too much on what can be accomplished on a know distance range and less on those other skill sets necessary to kill others.
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Old November 22, 2006, 10:52 PM   #27
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Before I fade into the fence. A rifle shooter that can shoot tiny little groups out to long range distances on demand in competition or civilian range is a "Rifleman" in my book. Now if someone is referring to a soldier that can apply these skills with great tactical know how and field craft is a professional soldier that belongs to the elite group of snipers or SOF. Same thing applies in the civilian world that can employ rifle abilities with hunting know how is a superb hunter. For another example, if someone can teach how to shoot, tactics, field craft and survival in a classroom, but does not have the ability and endurance to apply what he teaches is a "classroom instructor". josh
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Old November 23, 2006, 01:39 AM   #28
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270Win, you left out the
Quote:
American Heritage
dictionary definition of Riflery.
Can you post it for the others? Specifically #1..

In the OP and my second post, as well as a few others, I mention Riflery.. That's the starting point. But the word rifleman is a big part of this thread as well.
Quote:
I mean Rifleman.... Not to mention Riflery
Quote:
Get a real dictionary, look up the word RIFLERY... That's what I'm really talking about here, actually using the rifle...
Quote:
Just read it,,The OP says it all, my next two restate it.
Quote:
This is a big part of what I'm trying to encourage with this thread, a good honest discussion about the art of riflery.
Guys, I never asked anyone to look up the definition of the word rifleman.
Riflery,, yes.. But sure, we need the definitions of rifleman as well. Thanks for posting them 270, good call..
Josh, I understand what you mean. But consider this, if your grandfather did a few of those things, and your father, would you think of them as classroom instructors while they were trying to teach you the art of Riflery?
What about learning from a guy who may have walked down the same road your grandfather did, carrying an identical rifle?
Even if we have to use the internet.
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Old November 23, 2006, 02:49 AM   #29
Doug S
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Historically, at least in the more rural areas of our nation, I believe that we raised our boys to some degree to be riflemen. Unfortunately our culture is changing, and now often attempts to emasculate our male children, hence depriving them of this heritage. In the process we are losing many desirable qualities of manhood. Many American youth no longer experience the right of passage of owning their first firearm, and learning how to use it properly and effectively. We now have grown men more concerned with learning how to operate a joystick than a rifle. Scarey.
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Old November 23, 2006, 04:03 AM   #30
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Going back to your original post, I have to agree. Im 35 and I guess I was lucky to know my ww2 veteran grandfather. A rifle to him was simply a tool, what he really exuded was a certain competance in all things, I remember the gun handling specifically because of my own interest in Firearms.


Doug S also articulated some of my own concerns. No one is teaching "rifleman" skills just like they mostly tend to fail to teach "life" skills (thats why my wife and I homeschool our kids).

The idea, at least my interpretation, of the Appleseed Project is to change thinking through action. The late Jeff Cooper said that "when one picks up a rifle he instantly changes from a subject to a citizen" (had to paraphrase, I'm sure that isn't exactly the quote). Point is, a "Riflemens" thinking is divergent from your average man today. Riflemen means competance, respect, consideration, value, ability, ideals worth emulating, but certainly fading today. Appleseed seeks to change that and the first step is to the firing line with Rifle in hand.

BTW, I like the Appleseed description...A Rifleman can pick up any rack grade rifle, fire one zeroing shot, and be ready to engage targets at distance.......or some such

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Old November 23, 2006, 09:43 AM   #31
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A lot of what is being discussed is the difference in:

rifleman

versus

Rifleman

The dictionary definitions work for the small r version, but more is implied by the capitalized R version. The Rifleman in my book is not only competent with a rifle and practical use thereof, but is an individual who is responsible and competent in all aspects of his/her life - someone who can cope.

Thus the Rifleman would exclude specifically the "bench rest potato" types IMHO.

OK, I'll admit to being biased here, as I spent enough time with Jeff Cooper to pick up a few of his deeply felt views. The man was not wrong about much, and not very often.

So go out and strive to be a true Rifleman. The training at Project Appleseed will help, but it's what you bring to the line in the form of your trues desires, intent, and willingness to get the job done at whatever costs that will carry you through to Rifleman Status.

But again, that's just my view. I'm kinda strict on the use of the term.

Atlas Shrug
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Old November 23, 2006, 11:08 AM   #32
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Benn, If my grandfather is still alive today or if I was fortunate enough to have talked to him when I was at the right age to listen he would have probably told me stories about how he fought the Japanese and escaped the Bataan Death March. I'm sure he can teach me things that will mean dearly to me and will be very useful that I will cherish it for the rest of my life. I will see him as a great rifleman in his days, and in his golden years would be my great mentor. I did not grow up around guns. I was always intrigued about guns because of all the good and bad people that I have seen carrying guns when I was growing up. As I said I'll sit this one out, since my definition of a Rifleman is the same as what a dictionary will reveal. josh
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Old November 23, 2006, 12:47 PM   #33
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Great comparison Atlas Shrug, a welcome addition to this thread.
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Old November 23, 2006, 01:17 PM   #34
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A little time spent on the range will convince anyone that there are many more rifleshooters than rifleman. I've seen very few shoot from any position except the bench.

I work with quite a few "young 20's". I've hunted with some of them. I always take a trip to the range with them first. There is a major difference between the ones who had fathers and the ones that grew up in "broken" families. I've loaned out my copy of "The Art of the Rifle" many times. Surprisingly enough, after reading this book, some of them have bought smaller scopes for their rifles. I wonder why?
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Old November 23, 2006, 10:22 PM   #35
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Swampdog said "There is a major difference between the ones who had fathers and the ones that grew up in "broken" families"

Im not knocking guys without dads....but what you said there I believe to be the single greatest cancer on our society. Restore the family unit....with mom and dad and a lot of our problems vanish (as a society). Of course it will help a great deal if the man of the house is a RIFLEMAN as atlas defines the term.
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Old November 23, 2006, 10:43 PM   #36
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Read Fred's colum in Shotgun News for a while, and see if you don't start understanding the diference between a rifle shooter and a Rifleman. Log onto the RWVA website and read a bit. Check out the blogs, the forum, Fred's articles, and realy be sure to be open minded and willing to think.

I started out reading Fred's articles in SGN, and thought, "Wow, this guy is making alot of sense." Then I finally logged on to read about the program, and I must say, I was impressed. The folks are friendly, helpful, and belive strongly in what they do.

Any rifle can be used in the shoots (from .22 on up, auto, bolt, etc!), any sighting system, what ever. The important thing is to go to the shoots, get better, and enjoy the comraderie of other free thinking and beliving people. Then start helping others to the group and in the shoots.

Give them a try, I belive most will be happy that they did.

www.rwva.org
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Old November 24, 2006, 09:35 AM   #37
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To me, I guess a rifleman is one who's skilled in hitting what he wants to hit. He's not limited to benchrest or hasty rest or sling, but can hit offhand. Hunting, IMO, he's not afraid to take a shot on a running target. He shoots at a particular place on an animal, not just "in the brown".

To get there takes thoughtful practice--and quite a bit of it over a lengthy period of time such that much of the shooting is reflexive. A large part is becoming used to one particular rifle, although a good rifleman isn't strictly limited in that regard. It IS helpful to be "all married up" to one particular pet, however.

A rifle is a deadly weapon, regardless of type or cartridge. IMO, a true rifleman is always aware of this--but without dwelling on it. The intended use may vary, but the nature of the rifle does not. There must be a certain amount of pragmatism and an awareness of the realities of the world in which he lives.

As to a decline in the number of riflemen, that would occur even in the absence of any restrictive laws: Just the growth of cities and the decline of rural populations brings it about. It's more of an opportunity thing, than any other reason. IMO. Riflery must compete with TV and IPod for user interest. Far more effort is required to take a young person to a shooting range and teach, over and over, than to allow the TV to act as baby-sitter, or some computer toy to occupy the attention.

Art
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Old November 24, 2006, 07:50 PM   #38
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I agree Art, the art of riflery is a lifelong process. Riflery includes a wide range of different skills, but the end result is hitting the target. From nearly any position or range depending on the rifle.. Every individual has different needs, but knowing the limits of a variety of rifles is just as important as being able to use your favorite.
mkh100 has some good points regarding the decline of riflery training that starts at home. He's talking about our culture, it's changing.

Another thing is that there are a lot of guys my age who were raised in that culture, but when our elders pass on, we tend to forget the things that were very important to them. If the last generation raised by WWII grunts doesn't pass down the art of riflery to the next, who will? Some of my generation were raised to take the use of rifles for granted, as a mans job in life, some were not.
If you feel any desire at all to learn to use a rifle and practice this art called riflery,, You should... No matter who your grandfather was.
It would be really great to get a group of willing vets together with a group of willing younger guys sometime. We're out here.
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Old November 24, 2006, 11:31 PM   #39
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Nothing beats a good rifle

Bennn--

I learned to shoot from my dad, a WWII vet. He had an expert marksman medal and could shoot rings around me. He was one tough old bird.

I enjoy shooting my revolvers, semi-autos, and shotguns, but nothing beats putting one in the X-ring at 100yds. with a good rifle. It can be a .22, .357 Mag, or .30-06.

There's nothing better than one (or more) good rifles.
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Old November 25, 2006, 10:42 AM   #40
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Old November 25, 2006, 11:07 PM   #41
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To me, a rifleman is one who understands his rifle is only as good as he is. Point being, whether it's a $100 milsurp, or $2000 benchrest rifle, he can get the 'job' done. And like others said, theres so set point/age/experiance level that makes you a rifleman (unless in the military), as it's an ongoing process.

Just my humble opinion..

-Max.
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Old November 27, 2006, 10:09 PM   #42
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I must put a few more thoughts into this thread.

And I welcome all those reading or involved to add yours as well.

I took a gamble starting this thread, and it paid off. I knew this subject would rub a few of you raw, in one way or another.... Some have agreed with my statements, some have not...
It was never my intention to turn anyone away.

I started this thread because I recognize the fact that many men my age feel the same way I do. We were raised to do certian things, think certian ways, and we don't question those things...

But, we do... I do.. So do you... We just can't help it..

I'm surprised by how many of the people here that I thought would chime in on this thread have not. As well as those who got on board and then backed off. If you look, there are a few in this thread who have hardly posted at all. And a few who joined just to hit this thread... That should tell you all something. If the topics of this thread bother you, ask yourself why. Better yet, tell us why...

We get together here to talk rifles, debate rifles, buy and sell rifles.....
And with the exception of a few lurkers, shoot rifles....(not here of course...)

But we can't deny the fact that not all of us are riflemen.
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Old November 27, 2006, 10:35 PM   #43
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Quote:
We can't deny the fact that not all of us are riflemen.
Then again (and not to argue), what do you think defines a rifleman? And, how can you tell by the internet? An example of what I'm saying is I work on cars and motorcycles for friends and friends of friends. I have a hard time telling someone what a problem could be about their motorcycle through the web, and a few would probably think I'm some squid using his daddies 50 peice tool set trying to think I'm the next Jesse James.. But bring me a bike that doesnt run and I guarantee it'll run just as good as it did off the showroom floor.

Then again, I guess I just kinda answered my own question. I myself don't consider myself a mechanic, and I certainly don't hold a legit mechanical title, but I have a few friends who call me their mechanic and such. I guess it is just aquired eh?

I still wouldn't use the internet to determine who's a rifleman and who's not. Just my opinion, however.

-Max.
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Old November 27, 2006, 10:43 PM   #44
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Thanks for the input Max, but for the rest, don't let this distract you from my last post.......


#42
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Old November 28, 2006, 12:41 AM   #45
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Bennn, perhaps I fail to see your intentions of this thread?



I think theres no real issue with the fact that not everyone is a rifleman. Why? Because you don't have to be. Kinda like you don't have to be a race car driver to enjoy a corvette.

And questioning what you were taught isn't a negative thing. Everything is always in question, it's what makes progress in the world. The only time questioning is wrong is when you have an answer and refuse to accept it.

Or am I missing the point?
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Old November 28, 2006, 12:46 AM   #46
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I am new to the Rifle and at 23 I am relatively new to life, however I am able to form an understanding about what it means to be a Rifleman to ME. Having read this thread I find things that I agree with and that I disagree with. My defination is as follows

A Rifleman knows his Rifle and a Rifleman knows Himself. Both are kept to the highest standards possible. Both stand ready to be put into action without hesitation. Both have character and integrity that is beyond reproach. Accuracy dose not make one a Rifleman. These common themes are shared by both the Man and the Rifle: Understanding, Readiness, and Honor. This is what makes a Rifleman accurate. These shared traits are what makes a Man one with his Rifle.
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Old November 28, 2006, 05:47 AM   #47
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Good to hear from you gac009. Glad you got it...


Quote:
Thanks for the input Max, but for the rest, don't let this distract you from my last post.......


#42
..... Still a friendly thread, But max, you gotta read the op..
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Old November 28, 2006, 07:07 AM   #48
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I agree with Art about being able to hit offhand and shooting at running game with confidence. I'm in my early sixties and have shot turkey shoots of various configurations and won at least my share of turkey and running deer shoots offhand, with a bolt-action rifle. I've also won an offhand competition called the "Best Damned Shot in Maine", which combined shots at standing and running deer from 100 to 200 yards.

In my early shooting career, I wore out three BB guns and more than a couple .22 inexpensive rifles. I shot woodchucks and crows with a .30-06 as practice for deer hunting, shooting everything inside 150 yards offhand. It worked!

I also learned to glassbed rifles and have done many for myself, for friends, even commercially over the years. I also learned to tune rifles and was on the cutting edge of Ruger 10-22 "do-it-yourself" accurizing, writing instructions that are still posted on the web.

Yes, I'm a Rifleman, but just consider myself a Shooter instead of a "shooter", since I really like shotgun and handgun shooting a lot too. I handload rifle, pistol, and shotgun ammo, including cast bullets. I also shoot rimfire benchrest and have been a police firearms instructor.

My big thing is that shooting must be fun! I'm not into "black guns", full-auto, etc., but don't feel negatively towards those who do, unless we're sharing a firing line and their bullets spray my targets, or worse. BTW, IMHO, they're not Riflemen.

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Old November 28, 2006, 01:27 PM   #49
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I do not believe that anyone can become a rifleman without shooting at living targets under less than optimal conditions. I believe that is takes more than “deer hunting” to become a rifleman. Fire fights during war do not make a rifleman either. It is good experience if you live through it and that knowledge may be applied to becoming a rifleman, but that’s not all that is required.

You have to be good every shot, not just lucky. You have to know your weapon and where the bullet will strike every time you pull the trigger. You have to be able to hit what you are aiming for regardless of the position you or your target is in.

I have made some good shots. I have gone 40/40 on an Army qualification range on several occasions. I have made perfect shots on running game from off hand. However, I have made a lot of bad shot and I have missed game that was standing still. I once barely qualified on a range due to sever weather and poor range conditions. I am not a rifleman, but I strive to improve so that I can someday combine all of my experiences to improve myself.

I feel that it is hard to be a rifleman these days. Too little time is spent in the field. Too few men are in the woods everyday, shooting for food with limited ammunitions. We are not required to make great shots on a regular basis. Any skill not used often is often lost. I hope that someday my grandchildren think of me as a rifleman and more so as a woodsman. Being a rifleman is a worth goal, but to me I put forth more effort to be an accomplished woodsman. But this is another discussion altogether.
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Old November 28, 2006, 06:37 PM   #50
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whiskey, posts like that are a big part of the reason that I started this thread. I feel the same way about much of what you said.

I have been jumped on a few times for starting this thread, and I expected it.. But once we get that out of the way, we can all get together and build an invaluable resource for the young men who read this site, but have nowhere else to turn for this knowledge. I'm sure this thread has already had a positive impact on someone, somewhere...

Sure, I know it's only words on the internet. But we have a few hundred years of combined knowledge packed into this one thread.

And more to come, I hope...
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