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Old November 17, 2006, 09:11 PM   #1
dahermit
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Myth of women's/youth rifle.

Frequently I read about midsize calibers like the .257 Roberts, 7mm Mauser, .260 Rem., 7mm-08, etc., being a good choice for women and youth for elk and deer.

That statement strikes me as illogical. If a certain cartridge is deemed powerful enough for the game at reasonable ranges with careful bullet placement then why should it be restricted to women and youth? Is not reasonable ranges with careful bullet placement the definition of being a responsable sportsman? Is not the more-than-necessary recoil of some macho magnum more likely to result in poor shooting and poor bullet placement?

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Old November 17, 2006, 09:30 PM   #2
CobrayCommando
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Thats a great point.
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Old November 18, 2006, 12:03 AM   #3
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I like the 7mm-08 personally. Also have seen a few remington youth/women models in 30/06 which I think is a bit big for the average youth/women. I personally shot a fullstocked custom 98 mauser in .243 as my first deer rifle (of course I was 6ft 185 when I was 14) . My wife who is 5'8" and 120lbs loves the .243 even though the LOP is a little long for her. Maybe a good youth .243 or 7mm-08 is in order?

While .243 is good for deer and mulies it is not enough for elk. That is where I would recommend the 7mm-08 or .270 or .280. Even .35 remington would do the job nicely. if you are wanting to get something bigger like 308 or 30/06 for the wife or kiddies I would go with the reduced power loads for them.
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Old November 18, 2006, 06:03 AM   #4
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While everyone has their recoil limitations you have to learn to handle recoil. Some try to avoid that learning process and stick with the 243. And don't underestimate women ! After seeing a woman [5'2" ] handle a 44 mag revolver as well as the average guy ,it shows much of the women/recoil stuff is nonsense. However recoil will be accentuated it the stock does not fit properly .Also remember to use proper hearing protection.There was a commonly seen comment in early gun mags that a woman has a more delicate nervous system and should never attempt to shoot anything bigger than a 22 !!! I watched , last night , on tv a woman hunting cape buffalo. This after being seriously gored by one in a previous hunt !!
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Old November 18, 2006, 08:06 AM   #5
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My eight year old (all 75 pounds of him) loves to shoot my .303 Brit (and does it very well). His only complaint is I don't give him enough ammo.
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Old November 18, 2006, 09:51 AM   #6
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Very true. A hunting buddy of mine bought a 7mm-08 for his 13 year old daughter to use in Michigan's early youth season. After shooting it himself, he liked how it shot so much that he used last week during the rifle season opener instead of his .270 and shot a doe with it. I think now that there are a few manufactures making reduced recoil rounds a .30-06 or similar caliber isn't a bad choice for a youngster or a lady as long as the rifle size fits them. Gives you the option of growing up and using the same gun.
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Old November 18, 2006, 03:19 PM   #7
Art Eatman
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People vary all over the place with respect to dealing with recoil and muzzle blast. Doesn't matter if it's men, women, or younguns.

In general, people of smaller stature don't deal as well with recoil, so that's why lower-power or lower-recoil cartridges are so often recommended.

As for why not use the lesser cartridges all the time, that's more a function of size of game and common ranges at which one is profficient. The lesser cartridges are more range-limited. E.g., I'll take shots with my '06 that I wouldn't take with my .243.

IOW, don't try to wrap it all up into one package. There's no such thing as one size fits all. Which is why I try to avoid "advice" and simplistic answers to this often-asked question of a "beginner's gun".

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Old November 18, 2006, 04:03 PM   #8
juliet charley
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Of course, the ugly downside of that is I have a brother-in-law who takes shots that are considerably beyond his skill level because he has an 06 (and thinks it's magic)--and I get to help track his wounded deer. It really comes to the person pulling the trigger (and knowing when NOT to pull the trigger). FWIW, my deer rifle is a .243 (but took a spike today with .303 British I had along because I wasn't hunting).

Last edited by juliet charley; November 18, 2006 at 08:11 PM.
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Old November 18, 2006, 07:56 PM   #9
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I think they point they are trying to make is the caliber used is useless unless they are comfortable enough to place the bullet in the vitals. to do that they need to practice. As for deer, I had to drop back to 243 after shoulder surgery. the 95gr Nosler Ballistic tip 243 drops deer dead in their tracks just as fast as my 7remmag does with a 150gr Ballistic tip. Overall, i think we really do practice overkill on deer sized game. When I first started shooting after surgery it was 223 only. I did lots of testing, question asking, and found a very large number of people using 223. I hunted with 60gr Ballistic tips, and had the same humane kills. There is only one draw back to using such a violent expanding bullet. Shoulder shots result in loss of meat. A well placed shot in the middle of the vitals literally jellys the lung, heart & liver.

Good luck to all.
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Old November 18, 2006, 08:10 PM   #10
juliet charley
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I used a .222 for years and never lost (or even had to track) a deer. Hunting is more a matter of knowing where to shoot them (and knowing when not to shoot).

Last edited by juliet charley; November 18, 2006 at 09:18 PM.
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Old November 18, 2006, 08:25 PM   #11
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I personally use the 140 grain balistic tips in my 7mm rem mag. (federal used to load them, but instead stepped up to 150 grain) so I handload them now. As far as favorite .243 load for deer. I love the barnes x bullets.
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Old November 18, 2006, 09:32 PM   #12
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Number of years back the neighbors boy was over and told of a deer they had shot. "shot it 7 times" is a direct quote. I happen to know his father hunted with a 300 win. mag. Not sure if it was all the 300 or not. The point I am making here is it's where you shoot more than what with.
I don't recommend it but have seen deer killed almost outright with a 222 hit thru the chest.

Recoil as stated above is a individual thing. I think my recommendation would be to shoot what your comfortable with within the acceptable parameters of the game your hunting.
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Old November 18, 2006, 09:34 PM   #13
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An ethical hunter will always use enough rifle to do the job.

We associate women and children with a lower recoil tolerances, which probably shows more about inate chavinism than anything else. Plenty of elk have fallen to "light" cartriges over the years do to good shot placement.

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Old November 19, 2006, 05:09 PM   #14
dahermit
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A Bite!

Quote:
An ethical hunter will always use enough rifle to do the job.
AH HAH! A BITE!
Please be specific; what calibers would an ethical hunter use for the job, and what calibers would an ethical hunter not use for the job? Elk for instance?
I have no experiance hunting elk...I only know what others have written about it so, I would really like to know.

Regards,
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Old November 19, 2006, 05:24 PM   #15
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Many times, the term 'youth rifle' refers to the LOP. This is usually around 12 inches on youth rifles. Most men need 12.5 or longer LOP to properly shoulder the rifle.
As was mentioned though, less body weight almost always means less ability to deal with heavy recoil. I don't think that offering a lighter recoiling gun to a kid or woman implies anything negative.
I do agree that starting anyone out with a .338 Winny is not a recipe for success. Kids, women and men should all start learning to shoot with a gun that won't startle and abuse them, and then gradually build up to a more capable firearm, that might, or might not, have heavy recoil.
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Old November 19, 2006, 07:23 PM   #16
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Quote:
AH HAH! A BITE!
For elk, you want plenty of sectional density (a heavy for bore bullet), a well constructed bullet (Failsafe or X bullet for the faster offerings, bonded core bullets for the more modest velocities), and enough energy to make a good wound channel.

Anything in 6mm is NOT ENOUGH GUN FOR ELK, sure you could kill it eventually, and maybe get lucky with a head shot, but leave the 6mm bore for deer.

25 bore or larger, range limited by when the energy remaining drops below 1000 foot pounds of energy. This is what I consider minimally enough gun.

That being said I'm not going to trade in my 30-06 for a 260 Rem. I can handle the recoil so there is no point in going "lighter". Nor am I going to "upgrade" to a 338 Win mag, I can't handle that recoil.

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Old November 19, 2006, 07:51 PM   #17
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Quote:
Hunting is more a matter of knowing where to shoot them (and knowing when not to shoot).
Well said.

I'd add that if someone doesn't know these two things there is no such thing as "enough rifle" for that person.
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Old November 19, 2006, 08:24 PM   #18
geneinnc
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I would consider a .577 TRex to be ethical. It's a wonderful varmit load also.
The 600gr bullet normally dispatches ground hogs on the first shot. For small game, such as squirrels & rabbits, I drop down to my 50 BMG. For elk I would probably go to a 20mm round. I am mounting one on my Badboy ATV for this season. I can't afford a Hummer.
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Old November 19, 2006, 10:52 PM   #19
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Any of the calibers mentioned is adequate to cleanly kill big game. You don't need a Rompstomp 88 mm Magnum to kill a deer. Deer are actually very easy to kill, it's a matter of hitting them in the right place. Consider that 100 years ago, the 32-20 was considered a good deer cartridge, and the 30-30 was a very powerful round. Now, things change, and people want a bit more of an edge on game animals, but any of the rounds named will cleanly kill a game animal if hit right.

On the other hand, the reasoning behind the women/youth rifles is a light recoiling round in a shorter, more portable rifle to make it easier for women/youths to carry and shoot the rifle, and to therefore get into hunting. That doesn't mean you have to go out and get neutered if you want to shoot them.
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Old November 22, 2006, 09:27 PM   #20
Jimro
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Quote:
I'd add that if someone doesn't know these two things there is no such thing as "enough rifle" for that person.
If someone doesn't know where to shoot and when not to shoot that has nothing to do with the rifle, bow, or muzzle loader.

If someone has the basic ethics to be a hunter they will choose equipment that is up to the task, and equipment that they can use well.

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Old November 24, 2006, 12:47 AM   #21
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Quote:
If someone doesn't know where to shoot and when not to shoot that has nothing to do with the rifle, bow, or muzzle loader.
Exactly.

Either you know when to shoot and where to aim or there is no such thing as enough gun for you.

And if you know those things, it's surprising exactly what can be "enough" gun--at least for that hunter.
Quote:
If someone has the basic ethics to be a hunter they will choose equipment that is up to the task, and equipment that they can use well.
Again, exactly correct. The problem comes when people think they can define what "equipment that is up to the task" means for everyone.

That's an enterprise doomed to failure. An experienced hunter who knows when not to shoot can use far less than the general definition of "enough" and NEVER have a problem while a newbie will almost certainly find that what everyone says is "enough" just doesn't seem to work at all.
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Old November 25, 2006, 07:21 PM   #22
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I purposefully set up the .257 Roberts for my wife's first deer hunt. We used under-loaded 100g Ballistic Tips moseying along at about all of 2500 fps. The S. Central Texas whitetail doe never knew the difference between it and a romp-em, stomp-em Magnum; she collapsed in her tracks from a 100 yard shot.

The next doe my wife took, she INSISTED that she use the same rifle. That doe she shot at 140 yards, and she was confused as to why the doe ran. We found it about 40 yards away, crumpled up dead.

My wife, you see, loves to practice with that .257. She has no concern for the recoil, even though I've since been having her shoot full power (120g @ 2800+) loads. The fact that she's thinking about trigger control and shot placement and not about recoil means that she's 2 for 2 shots for deer, and has the confidence to take more.

I'm a big believer in keeping shots within limits for a neophyte, but not developing unnecessary flinches, either.
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Old November 27, 2006, 12:11 AM   #23
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.. I really don't know that much about guns - grew up around them, but not really taught much about them - except when your a child that they are not to be touch because they are not toys!! --- so is a Winchester 270 considered a Women's gun??
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Old November 27, 2006, 09:31 AM   #24
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I'd call the .270 a full-power cartridge. The recoil is what I'd think of a moderate. A bit more thna a .243 or a .257, but no big deal.

IMO, the .308 and .30-'06 are the upper end of moderate recoil.

If the stock is of proper fit for a person's size and there is a good buttpad on it, even smaller and lighter-weight people can readily deal with full-power cartridges.

Example: My first center fire rifle was an Enfield Model 1917, .30-06. I was around 5'-10" and 125 pounds. Tall and skinny. That steel butt plate danged near beat me to death, that first summer. After finishing out a Bishop sporter stock and adding a Pachmyr pad, I was happy as could be with the package.

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Old November 27, 2006, 09:43 AM   #25
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Quote:
Frequently I read about midsize calibers like the .257 Roberts, 7mm Mauser, .260 Rem., 7mm-08, etc., being a good choice for women and youth for elk and deer.

That statement strikes me as illogical. If a certain cartridge is deemed powerful enough for the game at reasonable ranges with careful bullet placement then why should it be restricted to women and youth? Is not reasonable ranges with careful bullet placement the definition of being a responsable sportsman? Is not the more-than-necessary recoil of some macho magnum more likely to result in poor shooting and poor bullet placement?

Regards,
dahermit
It has nothing to do with the accuracy or the range, its recoil, plain and simple...

Those calibers recoil less than .270, 30-06, .300 and such...

They recoil less...Thats really all that should be said on the subject of why they are considered womens/youth guns...

You can use them and with great success, but if you were a young child or a smaller framed lady, what would you rather shoot, a mule kicked .300, or a arm friendly .260?
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