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Old November 17, 2006, 02:03 PM   #26
skipjack
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I wonder if the firearm has a magazine safety. If so, it is possible that the mag release was activated, rendering the pistol unable to fire. Just a thought!
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Old November 25, 2006, 05:06 AM   #27
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I like all these "he shoulda, I would have....." comments. The Officer did a hell of a job in high stress situation against a formidable opponent. Officer is still alive = one for the good guys.
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Old November 25, 2006, 06:59 AM   #28
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I can say from personal experience, not being a cop but security in an extremely ghetto place where 90% of the arrests I make end up in a battle, that it is easy to criticize when you are not in the situation yourself. When you get into a fight, the perp possibly having some kind of weapon, you don't know his fighting skills, if he has friends nearby, your mind goes blank. Most of the time you do not have time to think, you just have to DO. After every single incident I always go over what happened in the situation and what I could have done differently or what I need to work on. The tricky thing about pepper spray is that there are many factors which contribute to whether it working or not. First of all the suspect's tolerance to it has a big role. I have sprayed people that immediatly hit the ground and give up, where others keep fighting even though they can not see. Another factor is the brand of pepper spray. There are a lot of BS brands and in my opinion the only two that should be carried is Fox Labs and Sabre red. Here is AZ the phx pd that I am always dealing with carry the sabre. Also there are different types of spray including stream, foam, cone, mist etc. Each one will absorb differently on the suspect's face. Last but not least there is the officer's aim. If using stream aim has to be pretty good pretty fast before the suspect can turn his head away. I personaly use cone so my aim can pretty much be non-existant.

Now after that long explanation from the fuzzy video it looked as if the Officer was counting on the pepper spray to work. I can't blame him as most of the time it will bring a fight to an end quickly. He should of also had his baton ready, but judging from the video he probably would have gotten that taken away from him also by the perp. Batons can be used in various ways including hits to the head and other areas which is the same as lethal force and can be very effective.

I would like to know how long the officer had been out of the acadamy before this happened. It seemed he just lacked overall experience in situations of that magnitude. He also should have called for backup before getting the suspect out of the vehicle. I don't know how big of a town this took place in so backup might not have been an immediate option. Here in PHX in the area I work usually a car with two cops shows up or at least two cars depending on the situation. I can see how he didn't think to clear the weapon once he got it back, just because someone is a police officer does not mean they are a weapons expert. Also like a previous poster said it is hard to actually think in the middle of an intense situation.

In that situation, I am about the same size as that guy 5-08 and 175 pounds, I would have immediatly called for another unit because I knew if the situation got hairy I wouldn't be able to take someone of that size. He is one lucky SOB thats for sure. I also would have probably tried to gain more distance from the subject before attempting anything, first things first I would want to get on that radio and let them know whats going on and that I needed help asap. I couldn't tell from the video but it didn't look like he got on his radio while he had the chance. Also this is a perfect example of why every police officer should carry a taser. I have heard countless stories and seen countless videos of a taser stopping even the most crazed subject. very rarely is someone able to withstand the shock, not fall to the ground unable to move, or even remove the barbs. Most of the stories about those are usually made up or exaggerated.

Sorry for such a long post but not too many people realize the amount of factors which officers have to think about in every situation. You can't be prepared for everything and like in this video you should never plan what you are going to do in advance and then act surprised when it doesn't work, like what happened to this guy.

Also most likely the gun was a glock varient usually a 9mm like a 19 but I have seen some officers carrying .40's more and more. Another thing is that some places use FMJ rather then hallowpoints for some reason.

SOrry one last point( i am bored and can't sleep) is that like a previous post said police often times worry about the possibel court cases in the aftermath then their own lives. Sorry but the damn liberals have ruined policing, even sometimes turning good cops into criminals because of use of force situations. Its said when people would rather protect a life-long criminal then a cop that either did or did not screw up once.
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Old November 26, 2006, 12:19 AM   #29
Makarov The Lucky
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Do you know what happened to the boxer? Charges? Did he die?
I cant say much about the officer...but the boxer was a tough guy.
The criminal is in the same position though and it seemed as though he had no problem fighting.
And so we criticise the officer. Sux for him that he got the bad end of the bargain but thats life.
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Old November 26, 2006, 05:20 AM   #30
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what most people dont realize is that many many people are bigger and stronger then most cops, hence the use of less-lethal tools. even if a person is smaller it still can be incredibly hard to get them in cuffs without extra help.
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Old November 26, 2006, 04:54 PM   #31
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The police need a better training academy or something.
Police need to be in better shape, and have more experience ect.
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Old December 23, 2006, 11:05 AM   #32
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There's a lot of great answers here. Here's mine. The force continuum was definitely in motion here. When it reached the point when the suspect started swinging at the officer's face, it was reason enough to use deadly physical force. In a close combat situation, it is not that unusual for a gun to jam. Make and model is usually not an issue. Whether the suspect grabbed the gun or the officer was holding the gun too close to his body is up to speculation. But something like that was the likely scenerio to make the gun jam - not allowing the gun to fully cycle thus making the gun out of battery. At that point, its nothing more than a hammer. Luckily, for the officer, the suspect wasn't thinking clearly or had no idea how to use a gun or he could have made the gun functional again. Nothing against the officer but when he got the gun back, it should have been instinct to tap, tilt, rack. He would have been back in business. Complacency was probably a factor too. Someone said that the suspect should have been handcuffed prior to a search. Absolutely! There are techniques taught that a 150 lb. man can take down a 250 lb. man with little problem. Again - training.

In this instance, the bottom line was the officer went home that night and the bad guy ended up in jail. Realize though how differently this could have ended up with only a slightly different scenario occuring.
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Old December 23, 2006, 09:50 PM   #33
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.40 from close range and only 2" penetration??? That i would have to see to believe. I have heard of a guy taking 8 .45 shots to the chest 2 to the abdomen and living. we hear these stories all the time i just dont believe them
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Old December 24, 2006, 03:31 PM   #34
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Did the officer have a back up weapon? He should have pulled it out and emptyed it into the suspect, if he had one!
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Old December 24, 2006, 04:24 PM   #35
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The cop simple did not have much H2H skills. As a result he defaulted to his training (i.e. no training.) Never tried to take his legs out, never tried to ground fight him after they both fell to the ground, never really tried to efficivly punch, and I guess his gun either failed, or he failed to get it to work.

He is lucky the other guy, while strong, was not a very skilled fighter himself.
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Old December 24, 2006, 04:47 PM   #36
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blah blah blah, more continuous comments of what he should have done. Guys if you don't work the field, you really have no idea of how you would react.

As for the "most guys are bigger than cops" comment, huh? No matter what line of work you do world wide, there is always going to be someone bigger, someone stronger.
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Old December 24, 2006, 07:34 PM   #37
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Lesson Learned???

Always keep your distance, especially if you dont have back-up to cover you up. Only attempt to put handcuffs if the guy (especially that big) is face and belly flat on the ground.
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Old December 24, 2006, 08:48 PM   #38
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Moral of the story: when you hear the orchestral music start to really pick up, it's time to get serious in the fight.

It's like those swimmers in the Jaws movie. Didn't they hear the ominous music? I tell you what, I hear that music, I'm getting out of the water.
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Old December 24, 2006, 10:08 PM   #39
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Years ago, near Marshal Texas, a female cop tried to cuff a LARGE guy who gave off indicators he was going to fight. She ignored him, even turned away to answer a radio call to her, and as a result got the **** beaten out of her (I saw the video from her own police cruiser cam.) Several facial bones broken. Later she quit the force largly cause she could not handle the stress (I'm sure everytime she stopped big men she worried that would happen again.)

I've been in a few fights, held a burgler at gunpoint, chased one purse snacher down (there were two of us) and held him for police (in the Virgin Islands on my honey moon.) Not to mention I've been in quite a few martial arts tournaments. So I have a bit of an idea how I'd react.

If you are going to mess with people and send them to jail, expect some will fight you. Cuase it is going to happen, sooner or later.
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Old January 1, 2007, 04:18 PM   #40
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This post in right inline with one I posted on another forum. It seems to me by the video that this officer was probably a rookie ( under 5 years street experience) and more than likely in rural area. This is the type of enviorment that I currently live. I grew up outside LA and my brother n law was a San Bernardino Deputy and my best friend was a LA deputy out of Firestone Park (Ghetto) it doesn't get much rougher than this area. My weekends were filled with ride a longs with both of them. There training was remarkable, with many training classes being taken throughout the year. Where I currently live, it is a down right joke the training these young officers receive. They are paid $10.00 per hour and thrown out in a car all by themselves. This is crazy in my personal opinion. Sure we live in Mayberry RFD (literally), but bad stuff happens everywhere and it is time that we learned that we need to invest in our officers, bith in training and salary if we expect them to stick around and do the job. Our local police and Sherrifs dept have a huge turnover rate because they literally quit and go to work at Lowes to support their families.
This young officer was darn lucky to go home that night. I see several things that showed his lack of training but won't go into them. I will say that all officers should carry a BUG for scenarios just like this one. This officer upon retreaving his weapon, never tried to clear the jamb, not one time, if the gun could not be cleared the BUG should have been drawn and dumped into the COM of the perp. Again I am thankful he went home that night and can only hope he seeks further training on his own and now carries a BUG.
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Old January 1, 2007, 05:11 PM   #41
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Quote from Rem (2nd or third post of the thread)
Quote:
I saw this the other day on the tube and wondered what caliber the cop used.
It wasn't enough apparently.
Maybe consider he shot the guy in the leg?

Shot in the leg= doesn't matter if it's a .45 or a 9mm


Maybe he didn't even hit him

No hit= doesn't matter if it's a 50 cal
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Old January 7, 2007, 06:16 PM   #42
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Re Cop video

That is tough to watch. Every cop is aware that every call is a potential "gun run" a firearm is always present, the officers. The fact that the person is "unarmed" who is beating the officer to the point of going unconscious is reason to shoot the bad guy in order to stop the attack. If he gets the officers gun he will shoot the officer.
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Old January 8, 2007, 12:08 AM   #43
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Do cops not carry pocket knives?

I'd have to agree with the other folks, he had time to rack the slide before the feller ran back up on him.

And what about his baton?
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Old January 9, 2007, 10:52 PM   #44
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Yes a Pocket knife and or baton certainly may have helped but a BUG in the form of a revolver would have been best.
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Old January 9, 2007, 11:29 PM   #45
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These type of videos make me laugh. Not that I hate cops or like senseless violence against productive members of society, but just the fact that a small cop up against a huge BG. Just the size comparison makes me laugh a bit. I was kind of small for my age growing up and know what it's like to be the little guy. Glad the cop is still alive.
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Old January 10, 2007, 12:47 AM   #46
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Just keep an eye out for the show on CourtTV called Most Shocking.It's on the Shootout episode.
I think the guy got like 6yrs.:barf:
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Old January 11, 2007, 05:21 PM   #47
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This video alone makes the case for FOF training,both with weapons and without.The perp was a skilled fighter.Probably much better training than the officer had,overall. This is just the way it happens in real life,and if you carry a firearm as a civilian it would behoove you realize that you also stand a chance of loosing your weapon.Train for it,have a mindset to never give up,and whether with guns,bare hands,or whatever,train to fight to kill. Not just to win. They certainly won't have any qualms about killing you.
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Old February 18, 2007, 08:01 AM   #48
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Thread necromancy...behold!

I only post here because my CCL instructor covered this specifically and did so in a manner which was quite new and unusual to me, but he picked up from other, more experienced sources - given that his background is nothing to shake a stick at, that's saying something. None of us thought it would work until he showed us himself then drilled us on it - once you've rocked and locked out of the holster, with your weapon at your side and canted slightly (to avoid snagging the slide on clothing), move your support hand from your belly to the weapon, grasp the slide palm down with your thumb behind the rear sight (or on the back of the slide for you striker-fired folks) and push the slide forward, keeping it in battery and allowing you to fire even with a guy right on top of you (literally in physical contact). Then forcefully cycle the action and repeat until the BG stops.

Basically turns your self-loader into an assisted loader, but it keeps your slide in battery.
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Old February 18, 2007, 01:49 PM   #49
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Seems like the main lesson here is have a BUG.
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Old February 18, 2007, 02:43 PM   #50
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No, the lesson here is to never try to search a perp on the hood of a car that hasd been running for a while. Don't know how many times I've heard about that one. The car's engine gets hot, and when you put a perp down on the hood, they get burned, and they get ****** off.
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