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Old October 18, 2006, 02:11 AM   #1
gvf
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Want to see what emergency self-defense situations are REALLY like?

I watched Court TV very late the other night, when "Police Shootouts" was shown, I think a regular show. Others may be aware of it, but it really was eye-opening for me who is applying for CCW in NY State. Hence, I have a LOT of waiting time to do various kinds of "research", since I can't fire any weapon until/if the permit is given. I was fascinated to see how true all the statements on the forum were about TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING until your use of your weapon is body memory in a dire situation. This show certainly proves that. And if I get the CCW, this show has convinced me to devote MUCH more time at a range and in instruction than I had planned. It's that or die, I learned from the show. And why even bother with CCW if you're going to die because you're undertrained?

Of course, some situations are shown where officers have time to deploy and plan tactics (e.g. a hostage situation). But in many others you see a cop in a routine car stop, going up to the driver's window and WHAM, he's shot, but with armor vest, still on his feet, running backwards towards his car while drawing and firing in an instant. No time to prepare, no time to think, to fiddle with a safety you never bothered to get really used to, to aim carefully - just a split second reaction. And these are COPS, with training - or at least some of it - we have what we allow ourselves. No more than that.
Anyway, it's a very good show to see the absolute instantaneous nature of self-defense situations. Look for the time it's aired in your area. I was in New York, and it was late: Wed 2:00 am I think.

Not to start a political argument, but I also want to share a reaction I had to watching numerous officers hit in the chest but saved by their armor-vests:
it was that armor-piercing ammo sold to civilians is not a good idea at all. All the cops who were shown shot in this way, from 3 feet away usually, would have died had they been shot with that.

Best

Last edited by gvf; October 18, 2006 at 02:37 AM. Reason: addition
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Old October 18, 2006, 02:24 AM   #2
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Since most shootouts with cop involve bad guys with handguns, where do you buy this armor piercing ammo for handguns? I’ve never seen it. If it does exist, it’s not readily available.
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Old October 18, 2006, 02:51 AM   #3
gvf
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Armor-Piercing

There's an FN pistol shoots 5.7x28mm, and the type of that ammo that will pierce armor-vests was outlawed for non-police use, leaving a secondary round that some feel seems to takes away the value of the pistol in terms of general stopping power. Don't know anything much beyond that.

However, my posting is primarily about the value of this show to really bring home some points about training one can read but never understand completely without seeing it actually take place. Leastways, it enlightened me...
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Old October 18, 2006, 05:52 AM   #4
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gvf, one of the things you should really start to think about concerning "training" has a LOT more to do with avoiding encounters than dealing with them once they've begun.

Face the simple fact that if you arrive at the moment where you must engage with lethal force, you have very likely already made a mistake that put you there in the first place.

Before you over-react to that statement, first buy the book "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin DeBecker and read it cover to cover.
If you apply what he offers in that one book, it is very unlikely that you will arrive at a gunfight at all. And if you can't avoid a lethal situation, you will be much better prepared going in.

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Old October 18, 2006, 06:15 AM   #5
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I agree. I took a course by one of the best and I was amased that I knew so little .A good course is worth every penny, it may save your life. Even Elmer Keith said 'the best way to win a gunfight is to avoid it'.
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Old October 18, 2006, 07:29 AM   #6
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criminals on those shows are always idiots....

that's the first rule, 2nd is they are most probably not going to show a cop getting killed... to much legal stuff to deal with.
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Old October 18, 2006, 07:42 AM   #7
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CDH touchs on a very good point. Police officers are expected to initiate contact except for the occasional ambush. On duty I go looking for trouble (criminals). Off duty I'm like any other citizen with a CCW. Armed and prepared but not looking to mix it up. I will take police action if neccessary but I don't go places that may be dangerous to me or my family. I do my best to avoid being surprised. If I see a potential problem I avoid it if possible and call the on-duty guys if I think it's appropriate.
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Old October 18, 2006, 09:34 AM   #8
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...and don't get your training off a TV show. It's a TV SHOW!!! You want training, go to a TRAINING. Don't turn on the idiot box.

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Old October 18, 2006, 10:14 AM   #9
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quote... " that's the first rule, 2nd is they are most probably not going to show a cop getting killed... to much legal stuff to deal with. "

I know of several that I've seen on these shows, several times. Trooper Coates. Constable Lunsford in east Texas.

If you just want to see some (usually non-lethal for either side) for entertainment value, they have some of these posted on courttv.com. The new episodes come on Wednesday night at 7pm central.
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Old October 18, 2006, 10:14 AM   #10
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Though I agree that police and ccw situations are different, once the bullets start flying a gun fight is a gun fight. I like those shows for the purpose of seeing how people react both under fire and after being shot.
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Old October 18, 2006, 04:12 PM   #11
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Anyway, it's a very good show to see the absolute instantaneous nature of self-defense situations.
That is the problem with so many of these things, they tend to give false impressions. The LE role is quite different from the non-LE regarding interaction with others, so it is very questionable how much of the scenario-type material is comparable. For instance, most non-LE situtions are not instantaneous, but instead play out over a time period defined in seconds, not fractions of seconds.
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Old October 18, 2006, 05:53 PM   #12
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If you get jumped/mugged/robbed/carjacked, it's going to be just as fast as the typical LE encounter.
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Old October 19, 2006, 12:08 AM   #13
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Gvf

First, thanks to all who posted, and that reference to the book on avoiding these situations to begin with sounds like a must-read. It would have likely helped me in a dangerous situation I got myself into: attempting to help a woman being pursued by her drugged up boyfriend at midnight , looking like he was going to beat her. I let myself move away from others who were awakened by the screams and watching and towards the area he had chased her to while I was calling 911. He suddenly turned around and walked towards me; when I looked where I was I was near no one else; luckily a good 911 operator heard the guy threatening me and got the cops there in a minute or so. All was OK, but it could have played out differently. I was lucky.

Second, right, CCW is different than a cop's intentions, but the incidents which I was refering to in the show were those of the cop being shot or shot at in a routine situation, surprised, where the first intent of the cops looked defensive: to stay alive by firing back.

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Last edited by gvf; October 19, 2006 at 12:10 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old October 19, 2006, 07:12 AM   #14
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Quote:
Not to start a political argument, but I also want to share a reaction I had to watching numerous officers hit in the chest but saved by their armor-vests:
it was that armor-piercing ammo sold to civilians is not a good idea at all. All the cops who were shown shot in this way, from 3 feet away usually, would have died had they been shot with that.
Not all cops shot in the chest from 3 feet away by handguns and not wearing body armor die, so why would wearing body armor and being shot by AP ammo be more lethal? AP ammo is NOT know for expanding and the FN FivenseveN AP round is like a thick ice pick.

The notion of AP ammo is a little flaky. At least for rifles, it does NOT refer to soft armor. Your typical street officer wears soft armor. Just because a round might penetrate soft armor does NOT necessary make it AP ammo. Pistol AP rounds do seem to have enough punch to actually get through hard armor plates, certainly not like rifle rounds. The FiveseveN certainly doesn't. It has less of a punch than your typical 62 grain penetrator round fired from an AR15 and the penetrator rounds don't do much to hard armor.
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Old October 20, 2006, 01:19 PM   #15
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http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm

Note the CZ 52.
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Old October 20, 2006, 01:26 PM   #16
David Armstrong
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If you get jumped/mugged/robbed/carjacked, it's going to be just as fast as the typical LE encounter.
I'm not sure what you would consider the typical LE encounter and how it would relate to this thread, but your basic premise is wrong. If you get jumped/mugged/robbed/carjacked, it is usually not going to be a particularly fast event or occur in a short reaction time parameter.
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Old October 20, 2006, 02:01 PM   #17
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The notion of AP ammo is a little flaky. At least for rifles, it does NOT refer to soft armor. Your typical street officer wears soft armor. Just because a round might penetrate soft armor does NOT necessary make it AP ammo.
To extend on this, there was a discussion in another thread about 17HMR penetration. The 17HMR WILL penetrate soft body armor with high reliability so long as it doesn't hit a trama plate. But I hardly call it AP. My 6mm firing 55 gr. balistic tips will punch a hole so clean in 1/4 plate steel that it looks like it was done with a plasma cutter. I wouldn't call it AP either. AP is a designation to a bullet that is specifically designed to penetrate a specific type of armor, and it generally limits it's capabilities outside of that purpose. Most rifle bullets just by design have a very high success rate of being able to defeat soft body armor, regardless of the type (HP, FMJ, Balistic tip). They travel at much higher velocities, generate higher impact pressure at a more focused POI, and being pointed causes soft armor to spread around the bullet easier than a rounded or flat-point pistol bullet. But even actual AP ammo can be misleading if taken in the wrong context. There is a lot of urban legend/myth around AP pistol bullets. One in particular that comes to mind is the KTW Armor Piercing round---AKA the "cop killer bullet" of the 80's. Myth says it will go through a vest because of its teflon coating---blah, blah. Fact 1: It won't. Fact 2: The teflon coating does NOTHING for bullet performance or penetration. It's a hardened bullet that was intended to go through hardened surfaces without expanding. The teflon protects the riflings of the barrel from wear, nothing more. And so far as I know... Fact 3: There has never been a recorded instance of a cop being killed with one. My little tid-bit on the AP issue...
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Old October 25, 2006, 09:11 PM   #18
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Train, train, train until the entire sequence is automatic. Look for cover ALWAYS. Practice "what-ifs" all the time as you walk/drive around. Keep escape routes open.

Pray for luck. And then "DON'T GIVE UP" even if you are shot. In a close range gun fight you are probably gonna be shot..

For those of you who haven't, try shooting and moving. if live fire while moving is not an option at your range, buy an airsoft pistol and practice in your living room.

I can dump 2-3 rounds simply spinning a left turn from 12 o'clock to 2 o'clock. and keep them all on a 8.5 x 11 target at 7-8 yards. Just like any other shooting drill, it jsut takes practice. (sometimes lots of practice )

I just hope I have drilled the right drills if that time comes.
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Old October 26, 2006, 09:03 PM   #19
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"If you get jumped/mugged/robbed/carjacked, it is usually not going to be a particularly fast event or occur in a short reaction time parameter."

Huh? I respectfully submit that most of the time, it will be a fast event AND in a short reaction time parameter.

Thugs are going to use the element of surprise no matter who they're dealing with. I don't see a car jacker running the length of a football field while pulling his gun directly in front of you prior to a carjacking. You're going to be sitting at a light and the next thing you know, you're being yanked out and/or have a gun in your neck.

I just don't think most violent crimes happen with enough time to put together what is happening until it's already well into motion. Keeping out of condition white will help you take away some of the surprise, IMHO.
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Old October 26, 2006, 09:28 PM   #20
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Just a dumb question here, but what makes you think someone who disregards the law, and humanity enough to shoot an officer or anyone else without provocation is going to respect ANOTHER law about getting any type of ammo. Criminals will get what they want if they have enough time and or money.
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Old October 27, 2006, 01:32 PM   #21
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Huh? I respectfully submit that most of the time, it will be a fast event AND in a short reaction time parameter.
It's a common misconception. Yes, some events are very fast-developing and fast-moving, but they are the exception. A look at the NRA "Armed Citizen" reports, for example, shows that in 80% of those incidents the situation developed over enough time for the good guy to retrieve a firearm from some place of storage off of their body, such as another room, a glove box, a briefcase, etc.
Quote:
You're going to be sitting at a light and the next thing you know, you're being yanked out and/or have a gun in your neck.
That is probably more of a "failure to pay attention to what is going on" issue than a rapid and sudden attack issue.
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Old October 27, 2006, 05:30 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gvf
There's an FN pistol shoots 5.7x28mm, and the type of that ammo that will pierce armor-vests was outlawed for non-police use, leaving a secondary round that some feel seems to takes away the value of the pistol in terms of general stopping power. Don't know anything much beyond that.
There is probabaly more misinformation floating around about the 5.7x28 than any other cartridge. For anyone interested this should clear a lot of it up: http://www.fivesevenforum.com/. Great bunch of guys, very civilized and extremely knowledgeable.
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Old October 28, 2006, 01:31 PM   #23
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Since most shootouts with cop involve bad guys with handguns, where do you buy this armor piercing ammo for handguns? I’ve never seen it. If it does exist, it’s not readily available.
I will not post how, but you can make it yourself very easily.
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Old October 28, 2006, 10:13 PM   #24
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"some events are very fast-developing and fast-moving, but they are the exception. A look at the NRA "Armed Citizen" reports, for example, shows that in 80% of those incidents the situation developed over enough time for the good guy to retrieve a firearm"
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A biased sample: these are the survivors only. How many attacks were not reported in the "Armed Citizen" because the citizen lacked time to respond?

It's nice to dwell on the positive outcomes, but one needs to keep their number as a proportion of all attacks in perspective

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Old October 28, 2006, 10:44 PM   #25
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AP pistol ammo is already illegal. There is probably some surplus steel-core 9mm and 7.62 Tokarev floating around out there mislabeled but unless you shoot a lot of eastern-european surplus you will probably never see any.

Any rifle round will penetrate soft body armor. It does not matter if it's a steel core, FMJ, or hollow-point round... It's getting through with no problem.

Under Title 18, UNITED STATES CODE, CHAPTER 44 as amended by Public Law 103-322
The Violent Crime and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 (enacted September 13, 1994) 18 U.S.C. CHAPTER 44 § 921(a)(17)(B) the term 'armor piercing ammunition' means --

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term 'armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.


§ 922(a) It shall be unlawful --


(7) for any person to manufacture or import armor piercing ammunition, except that this paragraph shall not apply to --


(A) the manufacture or importation of such ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof;
(B) the manufacture of such ammunition for the purpose of exportation; and
(C) any manufacture or importation for the purpose of testing or experimentation authorized by the Secretary; and


(8) for any manufacturer or importer to sell or deliver armor piercing ammunition, except that this paragraph shall not apply to --

(A) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department agency, or political subdivision thereof;
(B) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the purpose of exportation;
(C) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the purposes of testing or experimenting authorized by the Secretary.

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver--


(5) any firearm or armor-piercing ammunition to any person unless the licensee notes in his records, required to be kept pursuant to section 923 of this chapter, the name, age, and place of residence of such person if the person is an individual, or the identity and principal and local places of business of such person if the person is a corporation or other business entity.
§ 923

(a) No person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or manufacturing ammunition until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Secretary... Each applicant shall pay a fee for obtaining such a license to do so from the Secretary... Each applicant shall pay a fee for obtaining such a license, a separate fee being required for each place in which the applicant is to do business, as follows:


(1) If the applicant is a manufacturer-

(A) of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $1,000 per year;

(2) If the applicant is an importer-

(A) of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $1,000 per year.

(e) ...The Secretary may, after notice and opportunity for hearing, revoke the license of a dealer who willfully transfers armor piercing ammunition...

(k) Licensed importers and licensed manufactures shall mark all armor piecing projectiles and packages containing such projectiles for distribution in the manner prescribed by the Secretary by regulation. The Secretary shall furnish information to each dealer licensed under this chapter defining which projectiles are considered armor piercing ammunition as defined by section 921(a)(17)(B).
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