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Old September 27, 2006, 05:58 AM   #1
threegun
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Robbers case the place???

Monday the 18th a Value Pawn only three blocks away was robbed at gun point by 2 armed bad guys @ 10:32AM. Employees and even customers were forced to the ground and held for the duration of the robbery. Police released the video of the act and of course I watched it a few times just in case the duo enter our store to case the place. Guess what 2 days ago I believed that one of the men came in. A man fitting the general description (height and stature) walked in the shop stopped looked around for about 3 seconds then left without a question or a spoken word. As a precaution we took his tag number and vehicle info. It gets better now.......yesterday a man fitting the description of the other robber came in and did a complete walk thru without a word and with little attention to the merchandise on display. Again we took vehicle info. Then it hit me (not being a detective my brain doesn't work well like one) I noticed an anomaly on the second suspected bad guys body that would have been visible during the robbery and would let us know if we had been cased or not by the robbers. I quickly called detectives and asked if the large robber had this anomaly (keeping anomaly secret because detectives are doing the same). His response was chilling "do you have surveillance" followed by "I will be there shortly". Although they refused to tell me if the robber had the anomaly why would they come running if the robber didn't have it?

What would you guys do now? I am bringing my AR-15 in to work until they are captured to compliment my holstered and visible G-35 and 2 spare mags. We also have a winchester defender shotgun loaded with buck for the other employees area. We are being extra careful. Other than that can I do more?
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Old September 27, 2006, 06:25 AM   #2
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threegun...

I noticed you're in FL, open carry is allowed at your workplace? I know publically it's not allowed but if your store is okay with it then that's cool. Just make sure you can draw quickly if worse comes to worst. As for anything else I can think of, try to have more employees working, if this is two men. Have three people at work, if you have another employee in the back doing paperwork, he can ambush the robbers should something happen. Perhaps plan routes of escape with your employees if need be in order to increase your options. Oh yeah, have the cops on speed dial too, unless your workplace has silent alarms you can trip. Most importantly have you and your employees keep their wits about them, and stay alert. It appears that as much as none of us want to get robbed, you have the advantage of a forewarning. I hope others can give better advice than me, and I hope things work out for you. Hopefully these filthy bottom scrapers get caught BEFORE harming anyone else.


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Old September 27, 2006, 07:30 AM   #3
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Unless I'm told different depending on some State laws, open OR concealed carry is legal in ALL states if you're on private property and local ordinances haven't totally banned handguns (and if the owner of the property doesn't object).

In this case, I don't know what good an AR-15 would do you unless you elected to actually carry it all day long slung over your shoulder. If you did that, you might find that quite a few people walk in and walk out without buying anything once they get a glimpse of you with the black rifle.

Keep your pistol on you cocked and locked, and preferably concealed, and just be ready to defend yourself at a millisecond's notice. I think that it's safe to say that you HAVE been cased by the way you describe the incidents.
At least in this particular case, and contrary to a lot of holdups, YOU have the advantage because you know beforehand what the BG's look like so you can be even more alert the moment they walk in the door.

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Old September 27, 2006, 07:53 AM   #4
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You've done everything you can. Unless you can function totally as an "armed guard" such that the only thing you are doing is guard duty. I'm with Carter, I'm not sure I'd use the AR... If I were a customer and I saw you with that, I'd think YOU were the robber

Keep us posted. Stay safe.

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Old September 27, 2006, 11:04 AM   #5
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Have a plan. Discuss the plan with any/all employees that work there. The plan should include things like "When anyone says the 'code word', then Janet goes into the back room and stands with the phone, having already dialed '9' and '1'."

Yes, it is legal to carry openly as long as the owner of the business doesn't object... encourage all employees to do so. I understand the desire for the AR-15, but I don't see much potential for use. Make sure your panic button (if you have one) and your cameras are all working, and you have fresh tapes installed in all the recorders. Have onerecorder out in the open that can be compromised, and another hooked in-line that's hidden.

Above all, keep alert, and aware.
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Old September 27, 2006, 11:08 AM   #6
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leave the AR-15 at home and bring another shotgun.....
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Old September 27, 2006, 11:26 AM   #7
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"visible G35" ? When they see the gun [especially if they've cased the place] you have given up the element of surprize.That means they may shoot you first to eliminate the problem !!!! Keep it concealed ! Forget the rifle .Get training and practice !
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Old September 27, 2006, 12:48 PM   #8
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Threegun, what kind of store is it that you work in? A pawn shop, like the one that was robbed?


I think you deserve commendation for being alert enough to have spotted these guys, and gotten the police properly involved.

Did they offer you and your fellow workers (or the business owner) any advice or recommendations? (It seems to me that if they do believe you've been cased by the original robbers, they ought to have.)

It seems to make sense what other people said, about not bothering with the AR-15. I'd keep the G35, and go put a G27 on my ankle if I were you. (You may well end up benefiting from having a backup gun.)

Keep sharp, and stay safe.


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Old September 27, 2006, 01:54 PM   #9
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One of the gun shop near here has a video camera at eye level as you leave the store. under it a sign says "just in case you were thinking of visiting us after hours......" That store has never been hit and I think it is a prime deterent. No one wants a close up video tape of them floating around the news station if they hit the shop.
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Old September 27, 2006, 02:10 PM   #10
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That's cool!



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Old September 27, 2006, 02:44 PM   #11
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Conceal the handgun, lest they run in shooting!
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Old September 27, 2006, 03:31 PM   #12
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Why would you bring another shotgun over the AR-15? You have more accurate shots and you can just put it under the desk concealed.
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Old September 27, 2006, 06:04 PM   #13
threegun
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Thanks for all the advice guys (and gals Springmom).

Quote:
In this case, I don't know what good an AR-15 would do you unless you elected to actually carry it all day long slung over your shoulder
I brought it just in case we get the drop on them (since we know what they look like) and would only use it if I have time to grab it.

Quote:
leave the AR-15 at home and bring another shotgun.....
Flipped a coin this morning and the AR won LOL. I'm very competent with either but having a precision and a scattergun felt better.

Quote:
You've done everything you can. Unless you can function totally as an "armed guard" such that the only thing you are doing is guard duty.
I tried to do this as much as possible today only my co-worker was the guard....thanks for the tip mom.

Mete,
Quote:
visible G35" ? When they see the gun [especially if they've cased the place] you have given up the element of surprise.That means they may shoot you first to eliminate the problem !!!! Keep it concealed ! Forget the rifle .Get training and practice !
14 years or so ago I felt just like you about hiding the sidearms. My boss said that just the sight of the guns on his employees would deter robberies something called omni presence. Guess what he was correct after his 25 plus years owning 2 pawn shops neither has ever been robbed. Shops on either side of ours get robbed several times per year each. Even though history has proven him correct about displaying the weapon in plain view I still realize that if we are robbed it will be with overwhelming force or guns blazing. I am the best trained, fastest, and dare I say the most diligent (not trying to brag) because of my understanding of how a robbery is going to have to be carried out to be successful against us. A few of my coworkers simply cannot be made to believe that it can happen.

Quote:
Threegun, what kind of store is it that you work in? A pawn shop, like the one that was robbed?
Yes a pawnshop. Less than 3 blocks away.

Quote:
I think you deserve commendation for being alert enough to have spotted these guys, and gotten the police properly involved.
Thanks

Quote:
Did they offer you and your fellow workers (or the business owner) any advice or recommendations? (It seems to me that if they do believe you've been cased by the original robbers, they ought to have.)
They just said to use the electronic door lock, be careful, and take care of business if they do come in with weapons. They saw my G-35 and 2 spare mags and laughed (like saying we ain't gonna get robbed) then found the shotgun and laughed some more. Had I brought the Bushmaster with tandem 30 rounders they probably would have ****** themselves LOL.

Anyway gotta go time to close the shop..........don't worry we will be extra careful leaving.
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Old September 27, 2006, 06:16 PM   #14
Glenn E. Meyer
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Get a vest for under your clothes. Get a BUG for your pocket. Someone gets the drop on you, the AR isn't going to be much use. Also, you could be disarmed of the open carry gun - even if you try max awareness.

Might the store hire a security guard for a few days for an outside presence? Even a minimum wage type might dissuade the folks to go elsewhere and then they might be caught.
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Old September 27, 2006, 06:47 PM   #15
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Yeah, and then the "minimum-wage type" and the company he works for then sue the pawn shop, threegun, and anyone else in a five-mile radius because they knew they were exposing him to the likelihood of an armed robbery.

C'mon, people -- "think 2006!"




...Really. I wonder what the "liability" in a court of today would be, if a company went and hired a window-dressing "deterrent" of a security guard, and he was cut down by the very people his hirers were expecting to come along.

What waivers and hold-harmless clauses does someone who works in that capacity have to sign in order to take the job?


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Old September 27, 2006, 07:36 PM   #16
AmesJainchill
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Quote:
Get a vest for under your clothes. Get a BUG for your pocket. Someone gets the drop on you, the AR isn't going to be much use. Also, you could be disarmed of the open carry gun - even if you try max awareness.
Can't say this enough--body armor will keep you alive and if you're alive you can shoot.

Having two guns is better than one.
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Old September 28, 2006, 10:15 AM   #17
threegun
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I will be wearing my vest and the kel-tec p-32 until they are captured.....thanks Glenn. Its funny how something so obvious can be so easily forgotten and I own 2 vests. I use them ironically for high danger situations (hello) such as alarm calls to the pawn shop.

I disagree however about the AR and shotgun being useless. At our shop we see most customers well in advance and only on very rare occasions when we are slammed do we fail to track incomers. Unless they come in guns hidden and then pull them in which case our sidearms are fastest. They will be useful if an attack is coming and we see it in time.....better than a handgun for sure.
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Old September 28, 2006, 10:16 AM   #18
Glenn E. Meyer
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So when did you graduate law school, Azure? You tell the company why you want the guard - duh.

Oh, no - it's better to plan how to do a Doug. How do I win this gun fight, rather than a reasonable deterrence plan.


A person comes into the shop and draws on you when you are not paying that strict attention (yes, I am always in orange because I wear a bag of orange juice on my head). They say:


OH, I am going to rob you. Don't move for your obvious gun or bend down or walk over to the shotgun or AR so you can shoot me and be a hero on TFL.


Or put a guard outside, get a vest and a BUG - I am much more practical than the how to shoot'em up brigade.
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Old September 28, 2006, 10:33 AM   #19
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I'd put up bullet proof glass in a hurry, and a lock on the door where you have to be buzzed in & buzzed out, along with a camera & a tv screen that shows them they are being taped
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Old September 28, 2006, 11:12 AM   #20
Glenn E. Meyer
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Thinking about this - the answers vary about two points:

1. Deter the criminal so it doesn't happen
2. How to fight.

The first choice is much better.

The second sounds like more 'fun' unless you actually think about a fight going bad. I've read of a few pawn shop/gun store shootouts where the good guy 'won' but I'm sure he would much rather of it not happening as negative consequences occur for quite a bit.

What round for your AR vs. an outside guard, a vest, glass or camera? What fun are the latter choices?

Someone with brains and surprise will stop you from getting the AR. Sure, it's useful against a doofus that gives you warning. Give me a couple of folks and planning and you are toast.

BTW, this is a good reason to go back to my FOF training point from another thread. Not having been in the military, things like FOF in class or the NTI during simulated robberies or attacks - even when everyone is on alert convinces you that you want to avoid this. You get shot.

Static target matches and internet discussions among civilians tend to default to gun based fun and heroics. In FOF, fleeing in terror is much more common and quite useful.

I remember an Insights class where Greg was teaching us car tricks and another group was in a building for a simulated robbery. The door burst open and you saw a group of well-armed but civilian 'customers' hauling ass out of there as the firefight continued in the 'store'. Seemed like a good idea to him and us. Avoidance and deterrence are much better in the planning stage than which round to use on the zombie.

Try to deter the robbery rather than putting that much effort into the firepower without a layer of deterrence.
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Old September 28, 2006, 12:29 PM   #21
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Sorry guys I should have listed our prevention/deterrent capability. We have an extensive Internet capable digital video system complete with outside cameras. Both locations monitor the other as much as possible as does the owner of the shops. We have a door locking system (although hardly ever used). We also have the omni presence of our exposed firearms. Zero robberies in 25 years including a decade of being the only store in Tampa open 24 hours is pretty hard to ignore, especially when others are being robbed often. Every employee openly carries (some also conceal). Until recently (friends getting other jobs and such) we were all well trained. Now most can shoot but the training amounts to the basics required by our boss.....with me being the only holdout.

Glenn hit the nail on the head in prevention. I don't want a shootout. We have taken steps (quite successfully) to avoid robberies. When I am working (being the manager) I demand that every customer is talked to immediately upon entering (usually a greeting followed by how we may help them). This has more to do with getting a feel for who is in our shop than anything else. Most people with bad intentions give off bad vibes and the alert goes way up. Occasionally a customers first steps into the shop cause alarm bells to go off like the two that fit the description of the robbers. Had either men gone for concealed weapons they would have been behind in the reactionary curve two fold, plus we had cover. Neither of these guys needed to be talked to for us to feel the bad vibes and my co worker and I both felt the butterfly's. I did tell the second suspected robber to have a nice day.......he said nothing before walking out.

Quote:
Someone with brains and surprise will stop you from getting the AR. Sure, it's useful against a doofus that gives you warning. Give me a couple of folks and planning and you are toast.
The two main ways of getting us are to either lull us into lowering our guard and then pulling a gun or by entering guns blazing determined to eliminate us immediately. The first could work if the robber is in complete control of his adrenaline and emotions although our camera system will catch their faces very good. The second will result in a shootout that the bad guys will be at complete disadvantage in as they will have to act early exposing their intention at distance while in the open. Can you think of another way to get at us? Both of us are armed. We scan and converse with everyone upon entering (unless the bells are already going off). We are all versed in weapons retention and have discussed what the other is to do if a struggle ensues on the show floor (the most likely place for an attempt). Please explain how you might get at us so that we may better prepare.
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Old September 28, 2006, 02:06 PM   #22
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threegun, first of all, you shouldn't advertise your deterrent capabilities. If these guys were hard core (which I doubt) they would find you out and get the list right here.

I don't think you will see these guys again. Criminals do not like the chance of being laid low by the intended victims. For the most part, the only time confrontational crime against armed targets occurs is when there is the possibility of a HUGE payoff. So unless you get a Treasury Department drop off, I think these clowns will move on.

If I recall you did say they made that you were armed, so I can't see them coming for the shop. If they do, they are pretty stupid. However, having said that... Don't let your guard down. They just may well be stupid enough to hit the place.

As for ways to get at you? Oh yeah, I could tell you some horror stories of the things I did outside the box that really, really work.
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Old September 28, 2006, 03:29 PM   #23
threegun
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Quote:
If these guys were hard core (which I doubt) they would find you out and get the list right here.
Definitely not high tech or hard core.
http://www.tampabays10.com/news/loca...&storyid=39876

Notice one guy lay his gun on the counter. He's the guy that I believe came in first. The bigger man with striped shirt came in the next day and yes he made my gun and hopefully the (I'm on to you) smile on my face.

The bad thing is we always have criminal attracting commodities in the shop such as guns, gold, and greenbacks all the time. Day in and day out we are loaded with all three. The good thing is that so are the others Pawn Shops (minus the guns for most) maybe more loaded for those who also cash checks and offer payday loans. They don't allow employees to carry open or concealed. Why would the bad guys hit us when they have so many others? I don't think they will but I will prepare as if they are.

Quote:
threegun, first of all, you shouldn't advertise your deterrent capabilities. If these guys were hard core (which I doubt) they would find you out and get the list right here
Hope they find out. I want them to know we see them comming from multiple locations (meaning three different addresses). I want them to know that we are trained and armed with several weapons for every occassion from close range to far. That their picture has been captured at three locations eliminating any chance of removing video evidence. Finally I want them to know that I won't be fighting for the money (it ain't mine) I will be fighting for my life and my family.
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Old September 28, 2006, 04:45 PM   #24
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Make some life size target pictures of them and post them in the parking lot.

I think it is a bad idea for me to discuss my genius assault plans, and with no offense - I wouldn't share them with folks I don't know personally. I really mean no offense.
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Old September 28, 2006, 09:11 PM   #25
threegun
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I understand Glenn. I don't think the idiots in the video have your intelligence. Besides if someone wants you dead bad enough.....you will assume room temperature. I just want to prepare as best as possible regardless.
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