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Old September 21, 2006, 05:54 AM   #1
Hardegg
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Developing new load

I just deleted a long explination of why I did my test this way.
My real question is: New rifle 26" 1-10 twist Savage 10FP LE2B won't shoot the factory ammo for crap.

Went to range yesterday with my OCW test loads

180 Gr SMK's (because local store carries them)
Varget powder Starting at
42.8---2660 fps
43.1---2685 Fps
43.4--- 2700 fps
43.7 2725 Fps
44---2760 Fps

CCI 34 primers and LC brass

won't bore you with pics but basically the last 2 loads started showing signs of pressure.

Made enough of each load to do the same test at 100 and 300 yards with same charges.

Basically I started to hot for my tests. Only the first 2 loads held a group under
3 inches at 300 yards and showed no signs of pressure. And POI was vary similar between the 2

Question is would you go back from there and do OCW again? Starting from first load backwards?

Keep in mind I am fairly new to devolping accurate loads, This is the first time from the other 4 rifles I have done so that I started to high
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Old September 21, 2006, 08:22 AM   #2
arkie2
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Since all your loads are less than the max according to Lee, Barnes and Hodgdon you might want to check your OAL. You shouldn't be getting signs of pressure with those loads. Recommended OAL is 2.8
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Old September 21, 2006, 08:36 AM   #3
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testing

You didn't state the caliber I will assume a 308 judged by bullet weight and twist. You didn't state how many shots in each group. If there is a discernable difference in group size I would suggest you load up more with the smallest group and mess with O.A.L. move in .005 steps. If you didn't get any groups smaller than the others I would suggest a different powder or a different bullet by weight. note I did NOT say AND. either but not both. only change one thing at a time. I would suggest 5 shot groups. IF it ain't a 308 then I would need to know. I have noted several people have had sucess with RE-15 powder and IMR4895 is a favorite also. As for adjusting O.A.L I would suggest starting at SAMMI spec. and going longer from there. If you going to change bullets go lighter.
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Old September 21, 2006, 08:45 AM   #4
Hardegg
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Yea sorry i thought i posted it is a 308.
These load. are .005 off lands once I find optimal charge weight I will adjust OAL in same fashion going shorter.
As far as the books .... I wish there was one formula for all I have Hogdon and Speer data both of which disagree and niether agree with my result FPS vs charge weight.

But yea the 2700 and above rounds brass looked fine and no primer flattening but they were starting to eject a little stiff.
as far as shots per group I was only shooting 3 I was not trying for tigthness of group as much as finding OCW.
Just montering group size at this point
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Old September 21, 2006, 03:49 PM   #5
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Hardegg--Sounds like you're doing things right, and staying safe in yr load development.

1 comment and 1 question, tho':

I'd use larger samples in my load development. Most guys use 5 shot groups. Myself, I use 10 shot groups, but that's just me.

Can't find OCW in the tools for TFL--not in acronym finder, not in list of common acronyms. Mebbe I looked wrong, but I DID search before asking. So. What's OCW?? And why don't you care about group sizes--accuracy is one of the big ideas behind developing loads, I thought.

Not shooting you down, friend, just asking. Like I said, you're Doing It Right.
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Old September 21, 2006, 04:16 PM   #6
Hardegg
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OCW "Optimal charge weight" This method has been very helpful in picking the range of powder charge that isn't to sensitive to load variation. like case capacity or small gr differances. I am however sorting my brass by wieght for these tests just to eliminate 1 constant potenial issue

http://www.clik.to/optimalchargeweight

The reason I'm not paying to much attension to group size is until I find this optimal charge is that I will use OAL and brass and bullet prep to dial in the group size.

That is the way I have done all my rifles and it works good any way go to the above link and read they explain much better
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Old September 21, 2006, 04:25 PM   #7
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I can't agree that your doing everything right and in the safety margins if you've been accurate with the details in your post. Where did you get that load data??????????
I'd go with Sierra or any bullet maker's data over general info from the powder people. It's entirely possible that going so far out to the lands, you've got insufficient neck tension. Better to begin at the Sierra recommended COL and change that ONLY after dialing in the rest of the load.
The powder charges you've listed for 180 gr. Sierra MKs using Varget powder are far above the recommended load data in the Sierra manual. The MAX load for varget acording to the 5th edition Sierra loading manual page 540 is 41.7 grains!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This would explain both your problems and will explain your future throat erosion and copper fouling problems.
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Old September 21, 2006, 07:46 PM   #8
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I tend to go with the books that I can substansiate load data with my field tests although neither on my books are exact to what I my personal experiances my Desired FPS is 2600 I will achieve that with approx 42.2 gr Varget according to my calculations. 41.7 is not there for my climate and conditions near that.

I have a goal and an end in mind but you did not get that from reading my post

I am glad I did not invest in the sierra book Isaw the other day I guess.
What FPS do the y say that will give you?

I guess I just didn't cotton to your no it all manner, but I guess their is on on every board forgive me for being ignorant on my 8th or 9th post here.
I am so impressed that you were able to give me the page number
All I asked for was some one to review my results and offer an honest opinion

Are you someone of importance here? I can move on if you want.
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Old September 21, 2006, 11:55 PM   #9
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No, stay! Please!

Hardegg--some of the guys get a little vehement or didactic once in a while. Shrug it off--most of the members here are pretty even-tempered, and will "respectfully disagree" instead of flaming you.

The one area where we get really serious about it is safety--after all, we are dealing here with fiendishly hot gases, and hellish pressures, and if the genie comes out the back end of the bottle that's right where your face is. So ANY percieved safety problem will get called out, pretty quick.

But even there, it's wiser to not be talking down to the person you're advising, as they will take offense and not read nor heed your advice. Kind of self-defeating.

BTW, as I understand your posts, you WERE using the Hodgdon and Speer data. Just not the data which another poster prefers.

As you progress in reloading, you'll probably acquire more manuals, not less. It's useful to compare them when working up a new load, and no one manual can contain all the possible combinations.
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Old September 22, 2006, 01:13 AM   #10
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"I tend to go with the books that I can substansiate load data with my field tests although neither on my books are exact to what I my personal experiances my Desired FPS is 2600 I will achieve that with approx 42.2 gr Varget according to my calculations. 41.7 is not there for my climate and conditions near that.

I have a goal and an end in mind but you did not get that from reading my post."

Looks to me that your determined to get 2600 fps even if it isn't safe! Then when someone says so you call them a KNOW it all. You're going to have to grow a thicker skin if you stay around the internet long. Lots of people call a spade a spade.

I do not like the OCW method of load developement. Too much like witchcraft or majic. Nor the Audett ladder method, which the OCW is based on. I don't have a 300 yd. range to shoot on that I can hang a target up.

I usually take the desired powder load data from a newer loading manual, then take the top two thirds,(between recommended start loads and max), and divide that into five even increments. Hornaday does that for you by listing even velocity levels. I then load 5 of each charge weight to shoot at 100 yds. for groups. The smallest group shows itself rather quickly. If it doesn't then you're probably not using the right powder, or the bullets are no good.
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Old September 22, 2006, 01:31 AM   #11
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Whenever I get a new rifle, standard operating procedure is to loosen, then retighten the lug screws. You never know when some drunken monkey has broken into the factory and gone absolutely ape with the air torque ratchet driver. Improper screw torque (to heavy or too light) can throw accuracy off.

In looking at your data, 3 things jump out: You have a 26 inch barrel, you are using Lake City brass, and you are using CCI 34 primers.

Look at the data your books give on barrel length, if they are shorter than your 26, this will increase pressure.

Look at the brass used in your load book. LC brass is very thick, having less case capacity and therefore requires less powder. For instance, Winchester brass will have a lot lower pressure with the same charge used in the LC brass. The LC can hold from 2-3-4 grains less powder depending on the cartridge and the powder.

Are you sure you are using CCI 34 rather than the CCI M34? I didn’t know a CCI 34 was made but the CCI M34 is the military version of the CCI Large Rifle Magnum primer. Magnum primers used with regular primer data can yield significant pressure spikes. In addition to magnum and regular primer, the brand of primer used can make a difference of 1/4 to 1 inch difference in group size.

The combination of all the above may explain your pressure problems with the data used.
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Old September 22, 2006, 05:40 AM   #12
Hardegg
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Ok I got off of a 13 hour work day and read a flame. no big deal.
Thicker skin perhaps. I own my own samll business still I have 15 employees and at the end of 13 hours I admit my patiance can wear thin.

Yes I pulled data from Speer to start with because that is most consistant with my other guns. Another variable that I didn't factor in along with every body's advice is, all my other guns I have worked up loads for are gas guns.

The advice is great but the problem with the internet and I am guilty as well is we tend to judge people from one comment or question.
Don't do that to me when I am tired
But alas no one knows that from a chat box

I still am not convince that 2600 is too fast . I may change my mind but Some manuels exceed 2700 and I didn't show any signs of excess pressure until I hit the 2700 mark.
So if I am 2737 was my highest FPS and even that extracted ok just a little stiff but no primer flatening or any other visible warnings.

SO 2600 I currantly feel is within safe peramiters and gives me a matching trajetory with my MIL-Dot. zeroed at 100 1 Mil at 300 real close to it still a little low but dropping below that FPS really makes a differance
That is why I am hoping I can safely load to 2600

Trust me I am considering all advice I recieve here and checking all tightening on my gun.

BTW I really do like OCW it has been berry berry good to Chico
MY AR10 308 will consistantly shoot 2- 2 3/4

inch groups at 300 yards.
Took it to range last week and a my buddy did a 3" group with first time he shot it. But I do also have some bucks into it.
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Old September 22, 2006, 05:55 AM   #13
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I wanted to add one more thing. As a small business owner the hardest lesson for me to learn is to address issues as early as possible and to make people evaluate and defend or change their behavior.
So I really don't feel bad about not "Brushing off" the post nothing will change if people don't know that kind of advice is offensive.

Once They are aware of it they have to decide wether or not to continue to reapond in that manner.

amamnn, nothing personal, may have been an off day for you as well
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Old September 22, 2006, 08:59 AM   #14
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Hardegg, for any given set of components there will be a sweet spot, keeping in mind that any one set may be better than another. That's why it's called hand loading. That one load that simply works best, smallest group. Velocity is a by product of that. It may be 2550 or 2650 or 2600. Whenever I work up a load I increment charges by some amount, leaving all other variables such as primer, OAL, etc., the same. While shooting groups of incremented charges, you may notice shrinking groups, then expanding groups as charges increase. At that point back off. You'll be close to your best load - for that set of components. Velocity is determined for you by that. If at that point the velocity is not what you want, then you'll need to go search for a different set of components, or accept less than best accuracy for that set of components. Some sets of components work across a wide area, while some are very narrow. Some just don't work well at all.

About running a small business. My wife and daughter own a small business. Successful small business owners are true American heros. My hat's off to ya! Whatever you honestly reap from your own effort, you deserve. sundog
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Old September 22, 2006, 09:31 AM   #15
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Good point
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Old September 22, 2006, 04:30 PM   #16
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I don't care whether you have a little business or a big business or you own the world. Overpressure is over pressure and it will wreck your gun just as well as some farmer's. If you want to reject data that the bullet maker got after many more tests than you or I will ever accomplish, that is certainly your right in this country. Why bother to post a question about why the overload is innacurate? I'm just glad you're not shooting on the table next to me. You aren't, are you?
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Old September 22, 2006, 06:17 PM   #17
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26" is a lot of barrel - you might want to try a slower powder like RL-15 or H414.

That way you lessen the pressure spike peak and lengthen the push.



-tINY

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Old September 23, 2006, 04:49 AM   #18
Hardegg
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RL 15 keeps comming up as a suggested powder. I am going to pick some up this weekend and use to that for a bit and see how it does.

Ah and amamnn I really do love to banter, my daughter and I do it all the time. but it is not what I am here for.
I see that you are a fairly new member such as myself and I have to believe you are not representitive of the majority of people here at thefiringline.
Until you learn how to maturly express your concern for my saftey, be you right or wrong I will gleen wisdom from those whom I feel I can respect.
Please don't reply to my posts until that time
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Old September 23, 2006, 07:56 AM   #19
Hardegg
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Ok conclusion from this board and my other main board.
Stop with this load development and switch to these compenents.

Lapua Brass
SMK 175 gr bullet
Primers undecided I have more CCI 34's and also some rem 9 1/2's
will test them before exploring others.

Decide between RL 15 or VihtaVuori N540 Powder (any suggestions there)?

and of course get updated data and start lower this time

My other rifles all semi auto 24" barrels (except my subsonic) always seem to end up at top of load scale before having a accurate load with Varget I was just trying to save some time this time but it bit me.
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Old September 23, 2006, 12:35 PM   #20
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I hope you have a wonderful time on the board and that you never find another person that disagrees with you, since you don't seem to be able to handle it.
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Old September 23, 2006, 01:42 PM   #21
tINY
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VitaVuori makes nice powder, but it's a bit pricey state side. The N140 is a good choice too.

RL-15 is easier to obtain and less expensive.

If you like IMR, the 4046 is another to take a look at.

Lapua brass is nice - probably too nice if you normally take the time to recut the primer pockets and turn the neck anyway.



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Old September 23, 2006, 02:59 PM   #22
Hardegg
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Well I have been trimming primer pockets and length sizing but not turning neck thickness. But I would like to eliminate that prep work.
Plus this is a nice bull barrel tactical rifle so I don't mind spending a little more on ammo.

But I am leaning toward the RL 15 for the reasons you said and a lot of people have said it is very accurate.
I am assuming you meant IMR 4064. I used to use it. good stuff. switched to varget because it was easier to dispense.
......But now I have a dispenser that would probably handle it ok, I did have real good accuracy with it
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Old September 23, 2006, 03:29 PM   #23
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Hardegg

You mentioned you had your best success with Varget near the max recommended load and that's been my experience also. I bought some H4350 recently and my initial results have been excellent. Much better than with Varget, in fact.
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Old September 24, 2006, 10:04 AM   #24
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I'm going to start a thread in case someone misses this, but I will also post the question here...Why would you disregard the powder manufacturer's data over the bullet manufacturers data? I'm addressing a comment to this thread specifically. I say this for several reasons. 1. The powder manufacturer's butt's are somewhat on the line when they work up the data, and I'm assuming they allow for some "margin" and don't post a true max data for fear some dumkopf is going to go beyond it. Second, I used bullet manufacturer's data, and could not get a load that shot well out of my 22-250. I was using a powder (4064) that is widely accepted as giving great performance out of that round. I found the Max the bullet manufacturer stated was 35.4 gr. The powder manufacturer stated 36.3 gr. When I used the max stated by the manufacturer, I got mega tight groups. Which I understand is also characteristic of this particular bullet. (actually, I used 36.5 gr, as I had a 22" barrel, and got no signs of excessive pressure, and the test barrels were 24".) my group got even tighter at 36.5 gr, w/ 55 gr. bullet, and that is the load I use. don't mis-read me here though...I am not suggesting people go over max. I am simply stating that from my experience, and from carefull inspection of brass, shorter barrel length, I knew this load is safe in MY GUN. Bottom line, If I had not consulted the Powder manufacturer's data, I would have been looking for another powder, and ticked off about the poor performance of my initial test loads, which were about 1.50" @ 100. My current load is around 3/8" w/ a 4 shot group.

So just to clarify, I don't think there is a darn thing wrong w/ using powder manufacturers data. The key is to always cross check, work up your load, examine your brass, and measure your powder charge VERY carefully. I personally like your work up data, and feel you were doing the right thing.
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Old September 26, 2006, 08:26 AM   #25
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amamnn, chill out a little. Hardegg is here looking for a little help, and if all you do is berate him, he's not going to get the help he needs.

And as far as your snide comment about running a small business - if you don't like it - tough. I was making a litte conversation while taking care of business.

Now, to stay on topic, as far as data is concerned, the stuff you see published is what the tester's testing resulted in. Switch equipment and components and conditions and the results will be different. That's why there's so many different manuals out there the don't always agree. It's nice to have at least several sources. And, btw, on Hodgdon's web site they say max for a Sie 175 and Varget is 45.0C[ompressed] for 2690 and 48,600CUP.

So, amamnn, I don't know what kind of a cockleburr you got under your saddle, but try behaving yourself. If you don't have something constructive to add to the conversation then STFU. If you have a disagreement, be a gentleman and say so, but be respectful. This guy was looking for a little help, and you missed the mark by a mile. sundog
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Last edited by sundog; September 26, 2006 at 08:27 AM. Reason: misspelled word
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