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Old September 15, 2006, 10:33 AM   #1
tbm1305
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Friend shot while on the phone

My friend was sitting on the side porch of our house in a rocking chair talking to his girlfriend on the phone. A little after 3:30, two men came up from behind him, around the porch, and when he saw movement to his right, the men had a gun pulled pointed at his face. They demanded his phone and made him stand facing the house while one searched him and the other held him at gun point. He complied with them and they ended up shooting him anyway. They only hit him once out of 5 shots and he's about to be released from the hospital (he's been in there for a week). I left a lot of details about the story out just because I feel they really don't pertain to my question.

Let's say my friend was armed. When they were patting him for things to steal, they would have found the weapon (either in his pocket or on lower back) and taken it back to their thug projects up the street. What do you do knowing that if you do comply, they might shoot you anyway? Do you pull your gun when they walk up with theirs pulled already? Or do you wait for them to get more comfortable and then pretend you're reaching for your wallet? Very difficult situation.

I know paying attention to your surroundings and not exposing yourself to these types of situations is key, but sometimes you can be caught off-guard and possibly in higher crime areas without knowing (such as my friend's situation). I'm just wondering if you practice quick gun draws at the range (or places they're allowed) or if someone beats you to the draw, they win and you have to submit. It would be very difficult to pull a gun on someone when they have theirs pointed at you. It is also difficult knowing that a gun would be going to the criminals and you can be shot anyway even if they do get the gun. What do you feel you would have done in this situation? (not what you would have done to prevent it)

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Old September 15, 2006, 10:37 AM   #2
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Where did this occur?
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Old September 15, 2006, 10:46 AM   #3
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You can't go outside nowadays in condition white. I go outside all the time to talk on the cell phone, less noise & better reception. I pace around keeping aware of my surroundings.
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Old September 15, 2006, 11:02 AM   #4
john in jax
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You mention he was only hit once out of 5 shots - - was it the first shot or one of the consecutive shots that hit him?

In most shootouts a lot of shots are fired, but only a few hits are recorded. IF he would have been armed and tried to fast draw on them they most certainly would have shot at him, but then he could return fire? Sometimes, even after being shot a victim (or BG) can still shoot and move - - what condition was your friend in? Could he have returned fire or was it a "one stop shot"?
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Old September 15, 2006, 02:00 PM   #5
azurefly
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Well, the fact that they fired at all, combined with the fact that they fired FIVE times, means they were trying to murder your friend. Clearly.


Your friend would have been far across the line into justified-territory if he had shot and killed his attackers.

This event should impress upon anyone reading that there is no reason to submit to criminals because, since they are criminals, you cannot trust them to take what they want and leave you unharmed! Why would anyone trust that a person who would rob them (transgressing against them that way) would not also be willing to kill them? There IS no reason to trust the mercy of a robber.

It's too bad your friend was unarmed, unaware, and victimized. My main point is that this should be one of those cases that we learn from without having to go through the same horror ourselves. DON'T GO OUT UNARMED. DON'T GO OUT IN 'CONDITION WHITE'. It could really cost you to be so complacent, even where you think you are "safe."

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Old September 15, 2006, 02:43 PM   #6
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Agree with not being in condition white. However, it's a hard question with two guys, one searching, one holding the gun.

I can think of some things I might try hand to hand in that situation, but I'd have to be there. I do have some training in the area of CQC/hand to hand, so I might react differently than someone else.
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Old September 15, 2006, 02:53 PM   #7
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This event must have been in the local paper. Please post the link and article for more details. Thanx.
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Old September 15, 2006, 03:06 PM   #8
DanV1317
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If you carry, you need to train in more situations than just seeing the incident occurring and pulling your gun if you need to. You need to train for situations where you might need to use some elbow blows or your palm to the chin or whatever to create time and space to grab your gun.

Just carrying a gun doesn't mean you will be able to use it in every situation.

In that case, i would deffinately have used some hand combat to try to create space so i could draw my weapon. It's a lose/lose situation. If you have a gun they may shoot you, if you dont, they may shoot you anyway like they did to your friend. You must act.
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Old September 15, 2006, 03:27 PM   #9
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Even if your in condition purple, some BG might still get the drop on you and have a gun pointed your head. If he look serious, and the gun definately looked real, and there was nothing hide behind or back into, your best option is to comply. If you got you wits about you and you think you can pull it off you can fake fear and compliance and smoothly draw your weapon trying to shoot him in the head. That is way I like my Kel Tec P-32 and other pocket guns. "Oh god mister , don't kill me, here take wallet" Instead of a wallet in my hand, I will be holding my p32 sideways hoping he thinks its a wallet.If I do it smoothly, I hope to be able to get one round in his face before he realizes I have a gun.

You can't pull that off with any other form of carry, but it still a huge risk. Your still better off trying to run, or just comply
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Old September 15, 2006, 03:32 PM   #10
Trip20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbm1305
It would be very difficult to pull a gun on someone when they have theirs pointed at you.
Once you've allowed your attacker the opportunity/advantage of having their weapon trained on your person - most options from this point forth will involve a very high probability of being shot. These risks increase considerably when you have more than one assailant.

While "quick draw" drills and such are no doubt beneficial, I believe your brain is the most important tool when in this sort of situation.

Being able to think fast, create distractions, and keep your attacker(s) mind on something other than shooting you is the key to biding time until you identify the best moment to make your move – whether it be drawl & fire, making an escape, vulcan death grip...etc.

I just watched a video last evening of a postal agent who was working in a sting operation. He was purchasing credit cards from a postal worker. The transaction was to take place in the postal agent’s vehicle, which was wired for sound and video.

Once the suspect entered the front passenger seat, he handed the agent the credit cards. Looked around anxiously for just a second, and immediately pulled his pistol on the agent.

The attacker then demanded all the agent’s money. Agent complied. Attacker then advised agent he would be shot in the stomach if he did not drive the vehicle to such-and-such location.

As an aside, I've often heard you should not go with an armed person in this situation as your chances for survival greatly decrease.

So anyway, the agent did what he could to stall, distract, and otherwise stay in the parking lot until his other agents could arrive and save him. Problem was, the audio and/or video feed had broken and they didn't know the agent was in danger. So he had to dance for a pretty good while until the other agents came to his rescue.

It was a very scary situation to witness. At one point the attacker stated he would shoot through his own arm (while hiding pistol) into the agent’s stomach if he didn't start the vehicle and move on.

No cookie cutter answer in these situations. One must be able to think fast, read their assailants demeanor and body language, and act accordingly. Nothing can replace these important tools in my humble opinion.

FYI: I am no expert, these are my own opinions and hypotheses, and I could be wrong.
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Old September 15, 2006, 05:02 PM   #11
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This is something that has concerned me. Just because you have a gun doesn't mean you can actually use it. I recently posted a thread asking about preparedness because of situations like this: how do you react - and more importantly - how quickly can you react. I don't have the answers.

It seems like most BGs want to get in and get out quickly so they wouldn't want to shoot you - just give them what they ask for and they will leave. But I've never felt comfortable with the thought of just complying. Why should you trust a criminal. Even if they aren't in a messed up mental state (hi, crazy, etc....) just the act of robbery, etc... shows a clear disregard for standard civilized behavior. In addition - like you said - what if they find your gun? I would like to think I would do everything in my power to resist if I have a weapon at the time. So much depends on circumstances. If you are in a situation where they have already shot someone or shot at someone - clearly they are likely to shoot again and you only have something to gain by trying to stop them from continuing an unresisted offensive.
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Old September 15, 2006, 05:54 PM   #12
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It's a wonder Trip and I don't get along better.

Quote:
Once you've allowed your attacker the opportunity/advantage of having their weapon trained on your person - most options from this point forth will involve a very high probability of being shot. These risks increase considerably when you have more than one assailant.
At that point all you have is prayer.

Pray that they allow you to survive or make a mistake that you can use your training to capitalize on.
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Old September 15, 2006, 06:08 PM   #13
snolden
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At the point that you have a weapon pointed at you, you need to make a decision.

Can you get off the line of fire? If so you have a very high probability of living. Create a distraction, give up the wallet or a money clip you (hopefully) have for such an occasion. Fumble it then move to the 1 or 11 o'clock and KEEP MOVING! If you can't get off the line, then hope for the best and keep thinking.

If you happen to be able to draw and fire on the assailant while you are moving, great. If not, just keep moving.

A high percentage of people (approaching 90%) live if shot with a handgun. If you move, you are likely to take a peripheral hit if anything. But just because you get shot, don't stop fighting. I have never been shot, but I hopefully will be able to use my weekly training to "get off the X" and keep moving until I have either ended or escaped the situation.
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Old September 15, 2006, 09:08 PM   #14
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Quote:
It would be very difficult to pull a gun on someone when they have theirs pointed at you.
These guys shot five times after they had controlled the situation and still made only one hit. That's pretty consistent with the hit rate in shootouts.

If your friend had posessed the means to resist, had reacted and fought back just a LITTLE, it seems to me that he would have stood a pretty good chance of not being hit at all.

If they can only hit one out of five times when they're shooting at an unarmed person it's hard for me to understand why you think that it would have been worse for him if he had a gun and drew it to fight back.
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Old September 15, 2006, 09:19 PM   #15
Trip20
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Quote:
...it's hard for me to understand why you think that it would have been worse for him if he had a gun and drew it to fight back.
John - I think he meant that if you were not being fired upon (i.e., assailant is busy with some other task at that moment), it would be difficult to draw your weapon and fire with out initiating fire from the assailant who arguably has the leg up on you with his weapon already drawn and likely pointed at your person.

I don't think he means that once someone starts firing at you it would be "worse" or otherwise detrimental for you to protect yourself by fighting back.

Of course I could be misunderstanding you, or the OP for that matter.
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Old September 15, 2006, 09:26 PM   #16
faust
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Here's what happened 2 weeks ago in Baton Rouge, LA.

Pre-med student working at Olive Garden (in very *good* area of town, they don't put Olive Gardens in the ghetto). He walked outside to help a female co-worker put gas in her car. Two BG approached, demanded everything. Both victims complied *completely* and fully submitted.

Both were then shot, pre-med student is dead, the girl was hit in the leg. LSU is pretty shook up about this. One of my students missed class for the funeral. $10,000 reward up now, no suspects. They're still on the street.

This burns me up. Promising student killed for *no reason*. I don't see how they could have done much differently. Remember, these days the BG would just as soon kill you as leave you, even if you do everything "right".

http://wafb.com/Global/story.asp?S=5386482
"After Arnold and the woman handed over everything they had, they were both shot, detectives said.

Arnold was killed. His female co-worker was shot in the leg but survived."

I used to live right up the street, and it's maybe 2 miles from my favorite shooting range. Good area, broad daylight, compliant victims. Hard working student killed for no reason. There's a lot of ****** off people.
I carry, but I am not allowed to carry on campus, where I spend 90% of my time. Thoughts?
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Old September 15, 2006, 09:47 PM   #17
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faust...

I'm a college student as well, and the UCF area has had a rising crime rate recently, an increase in thefts and such. Good thing my girlfriend is no longer having to stay late at night on campus to finish projects, I go with her just about wherever I can especially if it's night there, and we make sure to park our cars as close to our classes possible, I taught her to use keys as weapons, and also plan on getting pepper spray for both of us when on campus. (I don't know what campus policy is on pepper spray but I'd rather risk carrying that, than a firearm on campus.)


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Old September 15, 2006, 10:48 PM   #18
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Quote:
I don't think he means that once someone starts firing at you it would be "worse" or otherwise detrimental for you to protect yourself by fighting back.
I think it's better either way.

They had the leg up and he was unarmed and they still had a hit rate of only 20%. Seems like if he immediately draws and starts shooting as soon as he realized they were holding him up (even if he's at a disadvantage) it's reasonable to assume that their hit rate would be worse.

Worse than one hit out of five is not getting shot at all.

I'm saying that this person used this example as a rationale for submitting. But given the way it turned out, it seems irrational to expect that it would have turned out worse if he put them under stress by responding with deadly force--in spite of his disadvantage.
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Old September 15, 2006, 11:46 PM   #19
PinnedAndRecessed
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The original poster posted the link. It happened just as he said. Thanx.

He earlier asked,
Quote:
I'm just wondering if you practice quick gun draws at the range (or places they're allowed) or if someone beats you to the draw, they win and you have to submit.
I've been held up at gunpoint twice in my life. Once as a teenager in southern Indiana. The perps got something like $1 from me.

The second time was in Dallas. It was a lone gunman. He got $50 from me.

Neither time, even if I had been carrying, could I have drawn a weapon and fire it before the bad guy(s) pulled a trigger.

Once they get the drop, it's pretty much a done deal. At least for me it was.

Quote:
It would be very difficult to pull a gun on someone when they have theirs pointed at you.
One thing not often dealt with in these scenarios, the one thing these Rambo wannabes are ignorant of, is fear. Panic freezes you up. I'm told extensive training can override stark terror, but 99 percent of the gun shooting population isn't going to have the time/resources for such training.

Quote:
What do you feel you would have done in this situation?
I would have done exactly what the person in the article did. I would have complied. So would everybody else. I know we fantasize about Rambo and all, but in the above instance, when they've got the drop on you, they've got the drop on you.

Last edited by PinnedAndRecessed; September 16, 2006 at 01:41 PM.
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Old September 16, 2006, 04:28 AM   #20
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As far as carrying on campus - is it state law, or school policy?

If state law, you do what you think is best, but if there are armed strongarm thugs in the area and it's only school policy, I'll take my chances with the dean. The worst they can do is kick you out of school and they don't search people on campus (so you are unlikely to get caught if you don't have to defend yourself).




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Old September 16, 2006, 11:07 AM   #21
tbm1305
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http://libertypost.org/cgi-bin/reada...?ArtNum=158500

I've been busy, but here's the article to read.

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Old September 16, 2006, 01:42 PM   #22
PinnedAndRecessed
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Thanx.

BTW, I hope your friend recovers completely and they catch the trash that did it to him.
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Old September 16, 2006, 02:06 PM   #23
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just for the record, you're not going to want to pass that board (libertypost) around much, if you can link the article somewhere else it might suit more. the following commentary doesn't help race relations much, especially with the race-based "survivor" starting up. scum comes in technicolor, and they all deserve swifter justice than the court system can deliver.

read the situation and hope for the best. i'd bet more people survive complying than not. if you draw and mess it up they're probably going to execute you rather than rattle off a few heading the other way. if the opening's there take it but bear in mind what you can and can't replace. the only reason i'd move up the force gradient without certainty of a violent intention would be if they were taking an interest in someone i cared about more than myself.
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Old September 19, 2006, 09:01 AM   #24
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Most situations, before they happen, involve odds. Like, what are the chances of being disarmed and shot with your own gun when, had you been unarmed and complied, you would not have been shot at all. [Simplification; there ARE other issues.] In THIS case, in hindsight, there wasn't a lot of risk - they shot him anyway. Clearly, for this case, he should have been armed, should have resisted them, and should have shot and killed both of them. That is tactical and moral, advice, of course, not legal advice. For legal advice, get off the internet and see several lawyers who specialize in that sort of question - if you want legal advice.

Cost times probabilty versus reward times probability. I don't mean the actual reward, but your valuation of the reward. For instance, if I were sitting on a jury where the issue was what a man did to keep from dying, I would reasonably expect him to put the value of his own life over almost anything, even though some other folks wouldn't really care all that much. But you have to decide for yourself what your life is worth, and I won't be on the jury.

Good luck.
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Old September 19, 2006, 09:45 AM   #25
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If I were armed, as I usually am, and this scenario occurred to me, I would have a hard time turning over my gun to someone that is holding me at gunpoint.

If they were searching me, there is no doubt they would find the gun and take it, leaving them with two guns and me none. Trusting the bad guy with your life is generally not a good idea, IMHO.

So I would de-escalate the situation if at all possible. If held at gunpoint, and being searched, I would attempt a defensive manuever while trying to pull my weapon while looking for cover. In this situation, probability dictates that I will indeed be shot. But punks with guns generally don't practice at the range, so probability also dictates the wound would not be a show-stopper and that I might have an opportunity for a quality shot.

It's all speculation of course. But there is no way I turn over my gun. If I subscribed to the "comply" camp, I would not carry a weapon.
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