The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 3, 2006, 08:23 AM   #1
zymurgest
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 3, 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 14
Rem 700 barrel lug

Howdy all... long time lurker first time poster..and thanks for all the info and expertise here.

I have a Rem 700 bdl in .223 thats shoots well for hunting .. avgs a little over an inch at 100 yds but that barrel lug just bugs me and I wonder what it would do with it removed. I really don't want to get into bedding. Whats the thinking on just removing the lug ? would this let the recoil lug just sit down in the inletting or would I need to also bed (raise) the base under the recoil lug too?

Thanks for any input.
zymurgest is offline  
Old September 3, 2006, 09:03 AM   #2
Picher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,781
The barrel lug is very important. In addition to it's being necessary for headspace, it is responsible for the action being located properly in the stock. It's a big reason why Remington bolt action centerfires have been so accurate over the years.

When glassbedding stocks it's very important to use a couple of layers of masking tape or some modeling clay to keep the bedding material away from the bottom, sides and front of the recoil lug. The rear of the lug is the only part that should be bedded tightly.

Other actions, like Mausers have integral lugs, but not as long as the Remington. Many rimfires don't have lugs, so I glassbed the rear of the action to act like a lug.

Picher
Picher is offline  
Old September 3, 2006, 10:12 AM   #3
zymurgest
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 3, 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 14
Picher.. I'm new to this but I'm not understanding how the barrel lug has anything to do with the headspace... by barrel lug I'm talking about the bump
in the wood stock under/touching the barrel about 2" from the end of the stock. The barrel rests on this and the action screws pull it down tight to this point along with the receiver bedding points. I would like to float the barrel and not bed the receiver... maby this is impossible. ?? I understand when bedding the receiver you would have to shim up the barrel to a floated point in the barrel portion of the stock.
zymurgest is offline  
Old September 3, 2006, 12:40 PM   #4
Picher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,781
Actually, what you're referring to is the pressure pad. Yes, that can be removed without any problem.

The barrel lug, usually referred to as a recoil plate, is between the barrel and receiver.

Picher
Picher is offline  
Old September 3, 2006, 05:40 PM   #5
zymurgest
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 3, 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 14
The Pressure pad ... gotcha.. as I said I'm new at this

Thats what I would like to remove to float the barrel.
If I do remove it.. is the recoil lug (at the front end of
the receiver) suppose to float in the inletting or is it
a bearing point?
zymurgest is offline  
Old September 3, 2006, 06:04 PM   #6
Picher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,781
The recoil plate is supposed to float everywhere except the rear. If it's bedded tight at the bottom, the action can "rock" on the plate and accuracy will suffer. The rounded bottom of the Remington action self-centers in the bedding.

Picher
Picher is offline  
Old September 3, 2006, 08:32 PM   #7
zymurgest
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 3, 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 14
Thanks Picher... I think i got it now and will give it a try soon.
zymurgest is offline  
Old September 3, 2006, 10:01 PM   #8
Olaf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2005
Location: not from Svalbard
Posts: 346
In my experience, removing the pressure pads (and thus free-floating the barrel) on Rem. 700's generally HURTS accuracy, UNLESS the action is glass-bedded also.....especially with the synthetic- stocked rifles. However, one could certainly try free-floating....and replace the pressure pads later....if free-floating does not improve things.
Olaf is offline  
Old September 4, 2006, 02:48 AM   #9
garryc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2005
Posts: 2,314
The problem I've experianced with the pressure pad is that the pressure applied to the barrel varies with the weather. A fault of a wood stock. Generally I'd suggest replacing the stock with a houge but some guys just have to have pretty.

Remove the pad by sanding it off with sandpaper and a dowl rod. Then glass bed the action to 1.5 inches ahead of the recoil lug. Then install pillers. If the gun won't shoot apply two layers of masking tape the first one 1.5 inches back from the forearm tip, the second 2" back. Increase the number of layers until it groups. Then when you have the proper pressure use the area between the tape to apply the bedding.
The alternate method requires special tools (an inch pound driver) and involves drilling a hole forward of the swivel stud and epoxying in a threaded socket. The socket takes a set screw with a nylon plunger on top that has a small v cut in it. The screw is backed out and reset to the desired weight before shootring. I believe that would be a pain to maintain.
garryc is offline  
Old September 4, 2006, 09:24 AM   #10
zymurgest
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 3, 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 14
Olaf

This is a beautiful walnut BDL and yes I do like pretty and I
thought if it did not improve I could just put a pad back in it.

garryc

I could go all the way and glass bed & pillar it but was hoping
that just floating would improve it.. maby not.. but my main
question was .. if I removed the pad . . would the receiver be
bedded enough to keep the barrel floated.. and it sounds like
the answer is yes. I will drop some model putty in the stock and
tighten up to see how tight it is first.
zymurgest is offline  
Old September 4, 2006, 12:11 PM   #11
garryc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2005
Posts: 2,314
Actually with a wood stock the pillars are the most important. the tension from the screws is a major factor in the stability of the actions mounting to the stock. With a wood stock you can't keep that tension consistant plus the fact that the wood crushes. With a pillar the tension is applied to metal and is not that critical. The first thing I would do is pillar bed it. Then if you want to glass bed it you still can.
garryc is offline  
Old September 5, 2006, 01:06 PM   #12
Scorch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 11,448
Most Rem 700s in 223 I have seen over the years need 2 things-
1- Free float the barrel
2- Glass bedding (pillar bedding or otherwise)

In 223, there is not much stresss on the action itself from recoil, so pillar bedding may not be necessary, but is a good idea if you feel like it.

My brother's Rem 700 in 223 shot about 1" at 100 yds, essentially making it a 100 yd gun. He lapped the locking lugs and the muzzle, floated the barrel, bedded the chamber area, recoil lug and rear tang area (making sure to relieve around the screws). It now shoots just under 1/2" at 100 yds, good accuracy. The Rem 700 is capable of outstanding accuracy if you pay attention to the basics.
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
But what do I know?
Summit Arms Services
Taylor Machine
Scorch is offline  
Old September 5, 2006, 11:22 PM   #13
270Win
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2005
Location: Damascus, Maryland
Posts: 921
My VLS in .223 is at 1/2" or better at 100, with no work done; I was told by the salesman that Remington did a study of the barrel harmonics and that the pressure pad was strategically placed for maximum accuracy.

Yes, yes, I know... hardly a fountain of wisdom... but the sale was already done at the time, he had no reason to outright lie... maybe just spread misinformation, at worst.

Still, I've seen two VLS in .308, mine in .223 and one in .204 just last week that were half-MOA or better out of the box.

So... "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"
270Win is offline  
Old September 6, 2006, 03:13 PM   #14
zymurgest
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 3, 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 14
270 WIN .. are you saying that the VLS has the pressure pad ?

and... Is the VLS a synthetic with aluminum bedding block ?
zymurgest is offline  
Old September 6, 2006, 07:58 PM   #15
Picher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,781
I don't believe that there was a pressure pad in my Sendero stock.

Picher
Picher is offline  
Old September 6, 2006, 09:16 PM   #16
270Win
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2005
Location: Damascus, Maryland
Posts: 921
Apologies for a vague statement. No, the VLS is resin-impregnanted laminate stocked. EXTREMELY stiff.

Unsure about the bedding block; never removed the action from the stock - no need to!

But the barrel is NOT free-floating - it does have that pad. And, as stated earlier, shoots tremendously well.
270Win is offline  
Old September 7, 2006, 11:37 AM   #17
Picher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,781
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Picher
Picher is offline  
Old September 8, 2006, 06:55 PM   #18
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 11,325
Can you do better?

Rifle shoots 1 inch groups @ 100yds. Pretty good, not great for a varmint rifle, but ok. This means no shot will be more than 1/2 inch from the point of aim.

Before you start messing with the bedding, check out a few other things first. Can YOU shoot better than this? Can the rifle do better with different ammo? Could you work up a load that has better accuracy? How is the trigger on your rifle? If it is only fair, could you do better with a better trigger? Can anyone else shoot better groups with your rifle and ammo? Is your sighting system adequate to shooting better groups?

There are lots and lots of things that go into an accurate rifle/ammo/shooter combination. To me, the last thing to do is a modification of the rifle bedding, becuse it is the most difficult thing to undo. Changing the Scope, ammo, even the trigger requires a lot less effort, and is relatively easy to undo if you don't get the results you want.

Believe it or not, some rifles actually shoot WORSE free floated. There are no absolutes. Each rifle is an individual. You may find your rifle will shoot 3/4 or 1/2 in groups with a different brand of bullet or ammo. Or a different powder, or just a change in the charge weight of the powder you are using.

Some rifles will never shoot less than 1moa no matter what. Others will, but only with certain combinations of ammo. The increase in performance you are looking for is one of the most elusive in shooting, and my advice is to try everything else first, before working on the stock.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old September 8, 2006, 11:56 PM   #19
mrawesome22
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 9, 2005
Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills.
Posts: 3,779
Remington 700 VLS has pressure bump. No bedding block. I own a .22-250VLS. 270Win, how could you have never taken the action off the stock? Didn't you take the bolt apart to get all that factory grease out of the firing pin? How do you know if the underside of your action is rusting? You kept the factory trigger pull? 700 triggers are VERY easy to adjust down. Wow, I would never shoot a new gun without a complete degreasing of factory lube.
mrawesome22 is offline  
Old September 9, 2006, 08:28 PM   #20
zymurgest
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 3, 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 14
44 AMP

Sorry .. should have given more particulars... I have had the rifle for about two years and it still has the rem tirgger but the frist thing I did was to "Break the seal" to the trigger screws and adjust it down to a nice 1.5 lbs and it has almost no creep.. nice trigger and similar to my other rifles.

I shoot a lot off a homemade bench in the back field .. 22 mag.. HM2 and this
.223. Scope is a Bushnell Trophy 3x9x40 ...not high end but fine for 100 yds.
and my buddy's groups are about the same with this rifle.

I do not handload.. yet.. thats coming.. but I have tried just about every thing I can get my hands on with this rifle and it likes Hornaday 55 gr Vmax
and Win Varmint 45 gr.. and thats what I shoot.

"The increase in performance you are looking for is one of the most elusive in shooting"... well said.. thanks for the comments.
zymurgest is offline  
Old September 9, 2006, 10:47 PM   #21
270Win
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2005
Location: Damascus, Maryland
Posts: 921
MrAwesome22,

Of course I degreased the bolt; but that doesn't require breaking down the entire rifle! In fact, I clean the innards of the bolt after every shoot.

I never felt the need to remove the action from the stock - why would I? I've sprayed every inch with Rem Oil, which seems to penetrate every nook and cranny without any other help from me. And it's kept in a nice, dry place.

I'm not worried about the underside rusting at all; I've never seen that happen once yet. I just did a few searches for cleaning the underside of the action, and found ... nothing. Plus, repeatedly removing the action I think would have more potential for harm than good, as it could - I would think - potentially alter the fit, or if the screws weren't tightened the same way each time, etc.

My factory trigger pull is a nice, crisp 4 pounds. I didn't, and don't, see a need to change it. It breaks very cleanly, which is the most important factor for me... in fact it's one of the best of all the various stock Remingtons I've come across. Maybe beat out by a VERY nice CDL Classic I encountered which had an amazing stock trigger, or at least I was told it was stock.

When did I ever say I didn't degrease the factory lube???

Maybe you're confusing two different posts, or posters?
270Win is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10615 seconds with 7 queries