The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Revolver Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 29, 2006, 10:02 PM   #1
GAshooter
Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2006
Posts: 33
9mm Revolver??

Anybody have a clue as to the performance and recoil of a 9mm in a snubnose (<3") revolver?

VS a .38spl?

(I am interested in a comparison of the calibers and felt recoil.)
GAshooter is offline  
Old August 29, 2006, 10:12 PM   #2
DobermansDoItGoofy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2005
Posts: 156
Mr. .38 Special is perfecto

9mm is nice - but the .38 is perfection.
DobermansDoItGoofy is offline  
Old August 29, 2006, 10:16 PM   #3
silicon wolverine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2006
Location: South dakota
Posts: 674
If the .38 is perfection, why'd they invent the .357 magnum?

SW
silicon wolverine is offline  
Old August 29, 2006, 10:44 PM   #4
18DAI
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 30, 2005
Location: NC
Posts: 2,114
I've shot a friends S&W 547 3" at the range. I was firing my 66-4 3" that day. He wanted to swap for a few cylinders full. The 547 was shooting WWB 9mm, and the 66 was shooting WWB 38's. The 547 was a little louder, and snappier in recoil, IMHO. Accuracy was on par. As for carrying a 9mm revolver, personally I would not. To me the advantages of a 9mm handgun, are capacity, and concealability. With the revolver you give those up, to an extent. When I carry a revolver, it's always a 357, loaded with 158 grain 357's. When I carry a 9mm as a primary or a BUG, it's a S&W 3913, with 8+1 Ranger 124 grain bonded. I'm a revolver guy. If I'm on my own time, 90% of it, I've got the M66 3" on me. 357 just works, again IMHO. I do like 9mm, and with my 3913 I'm well armed. For CCW with a 9mm revolver that you can get hits with, and you train with it, and it fits your hand, you will be well armed too. Hope this helps. Regards 18DAI.
18DAI is offline  
Old August 29, 2006, 10:54 PM   #5
DobermansDoItGoofy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2005
Posts: 156
Why did they invent the 357 ?

Well, they needed the .357 to fire from a .38 revolver.

.357/.38's are hard to beat !
DobermansDoItGoofy is offline  
Old August 29, 2006, 11:08 PM   #6
Qwiks draw
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 14, 2006
Posts: 880
Been bouncing around the forums.The sticking point seems to be 9mm. revolvers with clips for the cartridges.It seems that sticky extraction after firing is causing problems.Besides,got a look at the Taurus 905 ones and they seem flimsy.Bend and twist real easy.I'm prejudiced anyway.Own two .357 Mags and one.38 snubbie.
Qwiks draw is offline  
Old August 30, 2006, 06:23 AM   #7
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,847
Snubby: 9x19mm outperforms .357 Mag & .38 Special.

As any autopistolcartridge, the 9x19mm cartridge suffers much less performance loss in shorter barrels.

It always outperforms the .38 special and outperforms the .357 in barrels shorter than 3". If you don't believe me. Get the guns and a chronometer and find out yourself.

In a snubby revolver, the 9x19mm cartdrige makes much more sense than the .357 Magnum or the .38 Special.
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old August 30, 2006, 07:19 AM   #8
LSP972
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 14, 2006
Posts: 189
[In a snubby revolver, the 9mm makes much more sense...]

If that were true, then I imagine the several attempts S&W, just to name one firm, made to market a 9mm revolver would have been successful, as opposed to discontinued, right???

I know what you're trying to say (and its chronoGRAPH, BTW... ), but velocity is not always king.

Tha MAIN reason 9mm revolvers have not been more popular has already been mentioned; the rimless case poses several problems. Putting that aside, consider the fact that both cartridges- 9mm and .38 Special- use the same bullet size (for all practical purposes). But the .36 Special CASE has nearly twice the volumn of the 9mm.

Cutting to the chase, a .38 Special +P cartridge can push a heavier bullet, of superior design (SWC), as fast or faster than a 9mm can.

Unless you just like to tinker and load your own, a 9mm revolver with clips is a real PITA to mess with; and I base that opinion on watching several cops with them, on the range.

I've been carrying a .38 snubby as a back-up/off duty piece for almost 30 years. While I have not had to use mine (thank goodness), I HAVE helped investigate several shootings with them. At the ranges (i.e., close) that this gun is meant to be employed at, it does the job just fine.

A 9mm version would probably do just as well. But the rimless cartridge complicates things in a revolver; and for self-defense, simpler is better... always.
LSP972 is offline  
Old August 30, 2006, 07:32 AM   #9
eme
Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2004
Posts: 98
I own, shoot and carry a Taurus 905IB 9mm revolver. This little thing has a 1 7/8" barrel and a five shot capacity. The recoil is a bit more than 38's and a little more than 38+p's. No game comparing the 357 mag and the 9mm, it's the 357 all the way!!. This little gem uses a "stellar" clip to load the rounds, but it is not needed, as you can fire the rounds off w/o the clip, but the extraction is via a thin rod or stick w/o the clip. I've never had a tough/hard casing to extract after firing, either with or w/o the clip. I load my own 9mm and the 1000+ rounds I've put thru this gem were mostly ball, fmj or plated bullets, 115 grain up to 147 grain. The loading were as close to my SD ammo as I could get, so I would have the same feeling shooting the reloads vs the SD ammo. It conceals very well, a tad better than a 38 snub, at least I feel that it does. I use this firearm for CCW and my truck gun, so it does take a beating. So far after more than a 1.5 yrs. and like I mentioned above 1000+
rounds it still keeps shooting and at a fair to moderate POA/POI, distance being around 10'-20'. Also, this is a DOA revolver, one with a bobbed hammer from the factory. Sure would like to find a Ruger Sp101, Speed Six in 9mm.
eme is offline  
Old August 30, 2006, 02:18 PM   #10
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,847
LSP972

Just do the math and read the tests. The volume of the .38 cartridge has nothing to do with it's capability. It used to be a blackpowder cartridge and the length of it's case is obsolete these days.

.38Spec gas pressure limits just limit the amount of powder used so the cartdridge these days is quite empty. Even a 9x19mm cartdride is only half-full of powder. You can easily put two powderloads into a 9x19mm cartdride and blow your gun apart.

And the reason why 9x19mm revolvers are not selling well is that people who go for 9x19mm go for an auto (eg Glock 26, same size as S&W 60 and more than double the capacity...).

And: Heavy Bullets mean nothing. The best .357 Mag Bullet is a 125grainer. The best 9x19mm bullets are the 93gr EMB, the 100gr FL and the 124gr EFMJ. Read Jim Cirillo on slow and heavy .38Spec bullets...

But hey, if you love your loooong cartrige for the sheer length of it - that's ok!
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old August 30, 2006, 02:40 PM   #11
kojak
Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2005
Posts: 98
"It always outperforms the .38 special"

Take your chronograph and look at the data which will show you that it's just not true.

Of course the 9mm will be faster, much faster. But it has a puny 115 gr bullet compared to the 158 gr .38 bullet. If you take real world velocities of 115 gr and 158 gr bullets and do the math.. the 9mm ends up with 10% more energy. Considering momentum and that momentum has a lot to do with penetration both rounds are equal as velocity isn't squared in the momentum equation.

Every test so far has shown that 9mm and .38 +P are in the same league. Many times the .38 penetrates far more into gel. blocks.

Of course 9mm revolvers would make sense.. but only from a cost perspective as the round is cheaper. And by choosing .38 ammo.. one has to pick the right ammo as there is a 50-60% energy difference between the slowest and the hottest brands.

IMHO the 9mm is a crappy round. 115 gr is not enough. Then again I don't want anything supersonic. So no .357. I like the .40 S&W more and more. If there only was an equivalent revolver round..
kojak is offline  
Old August 31, 2006, 05:32 AM   #12
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,847
Snubbies

we are talking snubbies here. So we have to compare 2.5" Revolvers (barrel starts after the Bullet) and 3,5" Autos (barrel starts with primer).

In this league the 9x19mm comes even very close to the .357 Magnum and always outperforms the .38.

The 9x19mm is by no means limited to 115gr. There is a lot of great 147gr defense ammo and even 158 gr bullets are on the market, if you prefer heavy bullets...

A .38 from a snub is very unlikely to penetrate anything hard like a skull etc. Many real life shootings showed that. Jim Cirillo wrote a stunning eposiode on that in one of his books...

But hey, you like the .38, stay with it. If you like it, you will handle it well and that's the most important factor.
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old August 31, 2006, 01:00 PM   #13
kojak
Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2005
Posts: 98
You mean Glock26 vs. S&W 637 or 442?
3.5" vs. 1 7/8"
20 ozs vs. 15 ozs empty
26 ozs vs. 18 ozs loaded

The revolver has the better shape, better conceilability. IMO the Glock 26 is comparable to a 3" Model 60. 1 oz heavier, 1" longer and still the better shape compared to the Glock.

I calculated the energy values in Joule as i guess you're from Europe.

Results for the .38 (2" barrel):
Rem 125gr jhp +p 916 fps 316J
Win 158gr lhp+p 798 fps 303J
Rem 158gr lhp+p 788 fps 295J
Fed 158gr lhp +p 801 fps 305J
Fed 158gr rnl 604 fps 173J

Results for the Glock:
Fiocchi 115 1072 fps 398J
Speer 147 961 fps 408J
Speer +P 124 1192 fps 530J

Yes, it's possible to get 3x the energy by choosing the 9mm +P. In reality nobody in theri right mind would choose the +P ammo. The most likely scenario is that the revolver guy ends up with the Winchester ammo and the Glock guy with the Fiocchi 115 gr ammo.
398 vs 303, 30% more.
Momentum: only 2% more!

The 9mm has perhaps 15% more penetration in the above scenario. I just don't see how anybody would choose one platform over the other only because of energy/penetration issues. With 3" the comparison would be much more in favor of the revolver and with full-sized guns (4" rev vs. Glock 17) the difference would be 10% (energy).
kojak is offline  
Old August 31, 2006, 03:32 PM   #14
LSP972
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 14, 2006
Posts: 189
"Doing the math" is fine; but, like statistics, numbers can fool you.

I am basing my opinions on real-world results, that I have SEEN; not my, or anyone else's, "tests". The .38 may be an old black powder cartridge; but so is the .45 Colt. You think that one is obsolescent, too?

And, your categorization of which bullet does what tells me you are basing your opinions on what you've read. That's fine; but again, NOTHING in wound ballistics is a given. If you want to talk generalizations, more people in the United States have been killed with .22s than any other cartridge.

Would YOU carry a .22 for a defensive piece?

I didn't think so.
LSP972 is offline  
Old September 1, 2006, 08:08 AM   #15
SMarley
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2006
Posts: 8
Hi all,

I may have missed this in the list of postings, but I am still not sure why the 9mm (or any other rimless case) can't be easily adapted to a revolver design.

These rimless cases successfully headspace in all auto chambers, so why can't revolver cylinders be designed to accept rimless cases? Forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't that be like having 5-6 auto chambers contained in one cylinder?

I have just never understood the need for the half-moon clips if the rimless case can be supported at the shoulder.

Thanks in advance for the education.

Rgds,

Marley
SMarley is offline  
Old September 1, 2006, 09:04 AM   #16
cortez kid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 1, 2005
Location: Scranton Pa
Posts: 237
The Ruger .357/9mm convertion dosen't use moon clips. It uses a different cylinder. It has the push rod to eject the rounds. It's ok but a pain to zero in. I have one to have one, otherwize it's a Smith for .357/.38 and a (gulp) Glock 17 for 9mm. The Glock is a great weapon, by the way.
kid
cortez kid is offline  
Old September 1, 2006, 01:27 PM   #17
smince
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2004
Location: Northeast Alabama
Posts: 2,580
Quote:
I have just never understood the need for the half-moon clips if the rimless case can be supported at the shoulder.
It isn't the headspace. It is ejection. .38/.357 (and other revolver cartridges)are rimmed. There is something for the ejector star to push against to extract the casings. Since most semi-auto rounds are rimless(or semi-rimmed), the clips are needed for extraction of the rounds, unless you use a rod or your fingernails. That is the reason for the clips.

Last edited by smince; September 3, 2006 at 07:52 AM.
smince is offline  
Old September 2, 2006, 03:22 AM   #18
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,847
oh yes, .22!

KOJAK, that's what I meant. We interpret it differently but that's fine for each of us, isn't it?

Quote:
I am basing my opinions on real-world results, that I have SEEN;
So do I.

Quote:
The .38 may be an old black powder cartridge; but so is the .45 Colt. You think that one is obsolescent, too?
I didn't call it obsolescent. I said that you can't just fill it up with explosives, only because it has a longer case than 9mm Luger.

And, your categorization of which bullet does what tells me you are basing your opinions on what you've read.
Quote:
Nope. been there done that.

Quote:
Glock 17 for 9mm. The Glock is a great weapon, by the way.
Hey buddy!

Quote:
If you want to talk generalizations, more people in the United States have been killed with .22s than any other cartridge. Would YOU carry a .22 for a defensive piece? I didn't think so.
You're wrong. I would carry a .22 as a defensive pistol anytime. I'd even prefer it over a .38 or .45 ACP. Am I nuts? No. IMHO there only is one target in defensive shooting: The brain stem. So IMHO the most important and unconditional capacity a bullet/load needs is to penetrate a human's skull form (almost) any angle. Due to their extreme relation of energy/weight to bullet diameter, slow and heavy bullets such as .45 and .38SPC skid off a skull much more often then .22, 7,62x25 (Tokarev), .357Sig/Mag, 9mm Luger etc. There have been a lot of stakeout and counter terror incidents where .45 or .38SPC bullets failed to enter a skull (skidding off). BTW the statistics you name say a lot. The .22lr is chosen by most hitmen because it is a very effective head-shot round. And even com-shots with .22 work well (ever personally seen? or at least the Trooper Coates incident on Tape?).

So, even if it makes you shiver, I'd rather carry a .22 than a .38 Revolver. Sorry

Quote:
Glock 17 for 9mm. The Glock is a great weapon, by the way.
Hey buddy!
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old September 2, 2006, 08:33 AM   #19
clu
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 19, 2005
Location: Maryland
Posts: 181
Here is an interesting article about the subject on the box of truth

2" 38 snubbie vs. Glock G26 and Glock G27

testing is done showing penetration of various rounds with plenty of pictures showing the expanded rounds etc.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot27.htm
clu is offline  
Old September 2, 2006, 04:07 PM   #20
kojak
Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2005
Posts: 98
There you have it, the .38 Special penetrating 4 jugs, the 9mm penetrating only 3 jugs..

That means .38 special: 12"
9mm: 9"

How is this possible?

Simple, the 9mm has more energy and more speed. Look at the pictures, it expands much more then the .38 Speer GD. More expansion - more area - more resistance by the water and so less penetration.

In the end one must warn against caliber decisions. Chose your *platform* first. Then the caliber. And then the right ammo. In the boxotruth example a fmj would have given much more penetration than the .38, many times I prefer hardcast or fmj in my revolver. out of the three decisions caliber, platform, ammo the caliber decision is the least important one.

I enjoy my .38 revolver. I don't have to chase brass. I can shoot better than with a semi-auto. I can shoot faster than with a .357. I can mix different ammo types for different situations. Just perfect for me. Then again I can see why such a gun would be a very bad choice for a cop (capacity) or a hunting guide (penetration).
kojak is offline  
Old September 3, 2006, 07:22 AM   #21
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,847
Quote:
In the end one must warn against caliber decisions. Chose your *platform* first. Then the caliber. And then the right ammo.
I fully support that view.
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old September 3, 2006, 10:15 AM   #22
MakarovFan
Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2006
Location: Eastern Ohio
Posts: 92
Just picked up a Taurus 9mm Revolver, M905 used, and have not had a chance to take out to the range yet. Thought it would be a change over the 38spl. Besides I usually carry a Taurus 92 and will be able swap out ammo.
It never hurts to put another one in the safe.
MakarovFan is offline  
Old September 3, 2006, 12:37 PM   #23
RoscoeC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2006
Location: DFW Metromess
Posts: 562
Recently bought a Taurus 905. I have 2 other 9mm pistols (Hi Power, and Glock 19), so the idea of having a single round apealed to me. I have had it to the range a couple of times, and have put about 100 rounds through it. I ordered 10 extra moon clips from Taurus. I would not want to shoot it regularly at the range, because the recoil is pretty snappy. It is probably just my physiology, but it begins to hurt the web between my thumb and forefinger after a few rounds. It is stainless steel, seems to disappear into a jeans or shorts pocket, and it utterly reliable. For Concealed carry purposes it is hard to beat. I usually carry the Glock, but in Summer with less clothing, I often slip the Taurus in my pocket. Accuracy? I can hit almost as well as I can with the Glock out to about 7 yards. I am a big fan, and wish they still made it.
__________________
“Life is either a daring adventure or nothing." --Helen Keller
"Do not cry havoc when you should but hunt with modest warrant." --William Shakespeare
Glock Certified Armorer
NRA Life Member
RoscoeC is offline  
Old September 3, 2006, 02:30 PM   #24
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,847
Quote:
Here is an interesting article about the subject on the box of truth

2" 38 snubbie vs. Glock G26 and Glock G27

testing is done showing penetration of various rounds with plenty of pictures showing the expanded rounds etc.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot27.htm
That was very interesting. So there is a niche for each round. Still, the reason why I prefer .357Mag/Sig; 7,62x25 (Tokarev), 9x19mm and .22lr is that these thin and fast rounds penetrate hard structures better than wider and/or slower rounds. But that's just personal preference, isn't it...
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old September 3, 2006, 06:46 PM   #25
MakarovFan
Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2006
Location: Eastern Ohio
Posts: 92
As long as you are comfortable with whatever gets the job done!
A 22lr will work as well as a 45 if put in the right place.
MakarovFan is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13898 seconds with 7 queries