The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 29, 2006, 12:22 AM   #1
bullfrog99
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 19, 2000
Location: Southeast Michigan
Posts: 811
Help for a sick Glock 20

I purchased a used, highly modified Glock 20 10mm a while back, and unfortunately, it doesn't seem to hold up well to Glocks reliability standards.

In the picture below, you can see how the gun tends to jam. typically the jam is either case mouth out, with a round partially chambered (full magazine), or case mouth in, with the next round in the magazine taking a nose dive straight down (usually nearly empty magazine)

I am using both an old non drop free magazine, and four different new drop free 15 round mags, and it jams with all of them. The rounds I am firing range from low power UMC to Silvertips. It seems to jam worse when the magazine is toward full, and then again when the magazine has only a few rounds in it. It doesn't seem to jam with between five and twelve rounds in them.

Any ideas? Bad mags (unlikely) Bad Recoil Spring, Bad Extractor, or bad me?




Here is a picture of the internals. I don't even know which part is the trigger connector, but if someone could tell me, by sight what poundage it might be, I would appreciate it. (trigger seems light to me. maybe 3.5lb?).

__________________
Are you a gamer? Try Fortress Forever, It is a free HL2 Mod. http://www.fortress-forever.com/?a=media
bullfrog99 is offline  
Old August 29, 2006, 02:27 AM   #2
thales
Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2006
Posts: 20
*


The ejector in the photo appears undamaged. The first thing I would do is strip the slide and clean it thoroughly, paying particular attention to the extractor and its spring, plunger and plunger channel. In the process, inspect the extractor hook carefully with a strong magnifying glass for chips or wear. If the problem persists after that, try a new, OEM recoil spring.


*
thales is offline  
Old August 29, 2006, 06:03 AM   #3
Boondoggie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 28, 2006
Location: NEO
Posts: 202
Without removing the trigger housing and examining the connector you can not tell what it is from the second photo.

The problem seems to be related to either a bad ejector or possibly dirty mags.

I can not be sure from the angle, but it looks like the tip of the ejector is missing.

The failure is a failure to eject. It's extracting the casing from the chamber, but not ejecting clear. If the mags are dirty, the possibility exist that during the extraction/ejection process, the next round is exerting excessive pressure on the empty to allow it to eject. Hence, when you down load to 12, there is less of an issue.

Again, from the angle I can not tell if the ejector has been modified. But it does look shorter then normal. If this is the case. You will need to replace the trigger housing, that's the bad news.

The good news is that this is a $5 part, and should take you about 5 mins to replace.

http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Schems.a...Housing#imgTop

So to conclude.

1. Detail strip the top end, clean the slide components, paying special attention to the 'claw' on the extractor.

2. Strip and clean your mags.

3. Possible replace the ejector.
Boondoggie is offline  
Old August 29, 2006, 07:25 AM   #4
Reyn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 5, 2005
Posts: 115
You say it was highly modified. Define highly modifed.
Reyn is offline  
Old August 29, 2006, 08:37 AM   #5
Ausserordeutlich
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Posts: 996
Well, there's no pic of the recoil assembly, so we don't know if it's aftermarket or not. I'd think in a "highly modified" Glock, it would be aftermarket. Could be that the spring is too heavy for the loads that you're shooting.

Could be that you're limpwristing. If there's a heavier-than-stock spring installed for shooting hot loads, that'll aggravate limpwristing.

That ejector has been replaced by a longer one that's angled. Might want to try the newer version.

Like others said, could be a chipped extractor, but that's easy to check.

You can see the "+" or "-" on the connector, without removing the connector. + is 8#; - is 3.5#; nothing is 5.5#.
Ausserordeutlich is offline  
Old August 29, 2006, 09:39 AM   #6
Austin HiPowers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 24, 2006
Location: Little South of Miami
Posts: 121
Bullfrog, perhaps it might be a good idea to post this thread in "The Smithy" forum. I guess there will be more "Gunsmiths" reading with ideas to fix your sick Glock.
Austin HiPowers is offline  
Old August 29, 2006, 10:14 AM   #7
281 Quad Cam
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 937
Quote:
I purchased a used, highly modified Glock 20
I would start putting original Glock stuff back in and see what happens.
__________________
"Whats the first aid procedure for consumption of coolant?"
281 Quad Cam is offline  
Old August 29, 2006, 12:08 PM   #8
bullfrog99
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 19, 2000
Location: Southeast Michigan
Posts: 811
"You say it was highly modified. Define highly modifed."

I don't really know. The gun has been magnaported, it has a grip reduction, it has an extended slide release, but I think a standard magazine release. The trigger pull seems on the light side, but maybe it is just worn in. Below are pics of the parts requested.



Here is a picture of the recoil spring, barrel breech, and how the bullets sit in a fully loaded magazines (I only load 14 rounds) The one on the far left is the NDF, the other two are new drop free ones.





Here are two pics of the breech face, and extractor.





and two different angles on the ejector








I don’t see any markings on the trigger bar, so does that mean it is a 5.5 lb?


Finally, this is how the loaded magazine sits in the frame




I appreciate your help, and hope I can get her running again soon. Thanks
__________________
Are you a gamer? Try Fortress Forever, It is a free HL2 Mod. http://www.fortress-forever.com/?a=media
bullfrog99 is offline  
Old August 29, 2006, 01:10 PM   #9
Ronny
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 25, 2005
Posts: 206
Imo...

From what I can see, it may be either your ejector or your extractor. Or both.

The first photo showing the nature of the malfunction indicates that your extractor may not be getting a grip on the rims of the cartridges. An ejected cartridge is supposed to leave the chamber area mouth first, not rim first. Cycle the action on a working semi-auto to see this if my description isn't clear. On the photo, the cartridge is seen leaving the action rim first with the mouth of the casing jamed in the action. This is what leads me to believe that your extractor tension may be loose.

Also, in the photo showing your ejector... it seems that it's a little short. Here's a picture of the ejector on my 10mm SW 1006:



Notice that the ejector extends several millimeters beyond the rim, thus allowing positive ejection of spent casings. Granted, you have a Glock so the design may be different, but I think you might look into getting an extended ejector.

So in short:

1. Take the slide off the pistol and see if you can slide the rim of a fresh cartridge under the extractor against the breach face (as it would during the normal firing cycle). Wiggle the slide around a bit and see if the extractor has enough tension to keep the bullet pressed against the breach face. If the bullet falls off with just a little wiggling, you may need a new extractor spring.

2. See if you can find a friend with an extended ejector for the Glock 20 or order one online. Switching out the ejectors isn't hard, but it does require detailed assembly so be sure you know what you're doing.

Hope this helps. Keep us posted and don't be discouraged. The Glock 20 is a good gun.
Ronny is offline  
Old August 29, 2006, 02:41 PM   #10
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Bullfrog, I just looked at my friends G-20 ejector with a loaded mag in the grip (like the picture you posted) and it appears the same as yours. His functions fine as it has throughout its life including most of the near decade I owned it first. I just checked my G-35 40S&W and its ejector extends some 1/8 inch further up the case. I would call Glocks service dept. God knows they need business LOL.
threegun is offline  
Old August 29, 2006, 04:25 PM   #11
Ausserordeutlich
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Posts: 996
Can't tell if your recoil spring's plastic or steel. If it's plastic, then it's factory.

Below is a pic of the ejector from my G20.

Tried to get a good pic of the connector to show the "-" on mine, but can't get a good pic.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0007.jpg (33.1 KB, 79 views)
Ausserordeutlich is offline  
Old August 29, 2006, 05:39 PM   #12
Skylark
Member
 
Join Date: November 3, 2005
Posts: 29
Quote:
I am using both an old non drop free magazine, and four different new drop free 15 round mags, and it jams with all of them. The rounds I am firing range from low power UMC to Silvertips. It seems to jam worse when the magazine is toward full, and then again when the magazine has only a few rounds in it. It doesn't seem to jam with between five and twelve rounds in them.


Sorry this is a long post. It may be off base but then again it might help you find your problem. In any event, it can't hurt.

Looking at the image of your magazine, the cartridge is pointing high and is not parallel to the lips of the magazine. I think this is why you may be having problems.

I just went through extensive testing of why my Glock 19 was getting first round jams while manually racking the slide with 5 rounds loaded in a 10 round capacity magazine (I live in a 10 round state). I discovered that with 10 rounds loaded in the magazine and manually feeding the cartridges out by hand (assuming the bottom-most round is round-1), that rounds 10-8 fed out correctly nose high (cartridge parallel to magazine lips), rounds 7-4 fed out nose low (jam prone) and rounds 3-1 fed out nose high. The middle rounds 7-4 feeding out nose low were condusive to hollow and flat points jamming against the bottom edge of the feed ramp.

Hand loading 5 rounds resulted in a tendency to jam. Loading using the factory loading support resulted in no jams. Loading manually, I pushed the noses of the lower cartridges down so they oriented nose low. The factory loading support pushed down on the cases keeping the cartridges at the proper angle.

My evaluation of this phenomena is that with close to the maximum capacity cartridges loaded in the magazine, the spring is compressed so much that it forces the magazine's follower to be at the proper angle. With the middle rounds, the noses of the bullets drag against the front side of the magazine and the magazine spring is not strong enough to overcome the drag and keep the lower cartridges at the proper angle. So the middle cartridges have their noses pointing low. Then with only 3 rounds left in the magazine (rounds 3-1), the magazine spring is able to push the nose end of the magazine's follower up, thus putting rounds 3-1 in proper alignment.

In your case it appears that you have the opposite problem. Either 1) the magazine lips are spread apart incorrectly allowing the nose of the bullet to point too far upward or 2) your follower is pointing up too high making the nose of the bullets too high. With the middle rounds the bullet noses dragging on the magazine keeps the cartridges aligned with the magazine lips.

I think your objective should be to get all rounds to align parallel with the magazine lips as they are fed out of the magazine. You should be able to view this with the magazine out of your gun and manually pushing the cartridges out slowly.

With only 6 or 7 rounds loaded, try pushing the nose of the top cartridge down into the magazine several times, then push the top cartridge forward about 1/4 inch and check the clearance between the nose of the round to the top front edge of the magazine. Then try pushing the primer side of the cartridge down into the magazine several times and compare the clearance of the nose of the bullet when you push it foward 1/4 inch. Also try this with full and only 3 rounds in the magazine and compare.

Maybe look into replacing your magazine followers with a different version. For the 9mm, there are about 6 different versions. See if there is a version for your caliber magazine that will work. Followers are very cheap (like a $1 or $2 each) so you could purchase all versions from Glock and try them. Also, go to a rental range that carries your caliber Glock and try their magazines. If they work, check the version of the follower in them. You may have to buy new magazines if the previous owner(s) spread the magazine lips apart while trying to fix problems.

Hope this helps,
Skylark
Skylark is offline  
Old August 29, 2006, 10:33 PM   #13
seed
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2004
Posts: 411
I noticed that the innards of your Glock have not been upgraded. You might consider sending it into Glock to get that done...however they may not like the grip reduction, but oh well. What good is a warranty if you are too worried to use it because they may not honor it?

If you are using strong recoil springs, then the ammo will need to be hot enough to cycle the slide. I am currently going through the same type of problem with my Kahr MK-40 which functioned fine with the factory and than a factory-standard weight Wolff set-up, but now is having problems with the 22.5# set-up I just installed. My thoughts, based on my problem is that the ammo I used to test my new set-up is not hot enough to cycle the slide fully enough, unlike the defense ammo I use (weak practice ammo: Magtech .40 S&W; hot defense ammo: Corbon Pow'r Ball). So my next trip to the range, I will be experimenting with extra power mag springs using hotter, more recoiling Speer Lawman 180 grain ammo. My only fear is that the extra power mag springs could make my problem even worse by putting more drag on the slide when the mag is fully loaded...We will see.
seed is offline  
Old August 29, 2006, 11:18 PM   #14
oldbillthundercheif
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2006
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 2,450
In the very first photo...

that looks like a live round stuck in there stovepipe-style. Everyone here is talking about ways to fix a failure to eject, but that looks like a failure to feed to me. Is that a photo of an actual malfunction or did you just stick a live round in there to recreate what happens post-bang?

You have not posted a photo of the feed-ramp / barrel area of the pistol. Has the previous owner removed metal or otherwise monkeyed with this area of the gun?
oldbillthundercheif is offline  
Old August 29, 2006, 11:23 PM   #15
Dave AA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 18, 1999
Posts: 387
Here's mine.




Yours looks alot different. I'd say ejector.
__________________
Take with food or milk
Dave AA is offline  
Old August 30, 2006, 09:56 AM   #16
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Dave, Is that a G-20? My old G-20 has a straight and super short ejector. This looks like the ejector on the G-30.
threegun is offline  
Old August 30, 2006, 10:00 AM   #17
281 Quad Cam
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 937
Compared to DaveAA's picture - you have almost no ejector.
__________________
"Whats the first aid procedure for consumption of coolant?"
281 Quad Cam is offline  
Old August 30, 2006, 11:11 AM   #18
Ronny
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 25, 2005
Posts: 206
Look at Ausserdeutilch's pic again. His G20 has a similar ejector to Dave's, and Bullfrog's ejector is almost non-existant compared to theirs.
Ronny is offline  
Old August 30, 2006, 11:42 AM   #19
Ausserordeutlich
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Posts: 996
G20/21 and G29/30 all use the same ejectors.
Ausserordeutlich is offline  
Old August 31, 2006, 12:18 AM   #20
Dave AA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 18, 1999
Posts: 387
It's a G20. Fairly new.
__________________
Take with food or milk
Dave AA is offline  
Old August 31, 2006, 05:50 AM   #21
thales
Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2006
Posts: 20
*


bullfrog99's ejector appears practically identical to the one on my Glock 20 (second generation, early nineties vintage) which functions flawlessly.


*
thales is offline  
Old August 31, 2006, 08:03 AM   #22
Ausserordeutlich
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Posts: 996
IF there's any doubt at all, then it's GOT to be limpwristing!
Ausserordeutlich is offline  
Old August 31, 2006, 11:48 AM   #23
triggertime
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 5, 2002
Location: TN
Posts: 13
I'd start by upgrading your 4340 ejector to an 8203.
triggertime is offline  
Old August 31, 2006, 06:55 PM   #24
thales
Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2006
Posts: 20
*


I usually try to approach malfunctions like this in a way that attempts to minimize the time, trouble, and expense of diagnosing and repairing the problem. One way to do this is to first make sure that the pistol is very clean; that there is no dirt causing the malfunction, especially in areas which are reasonably likely culprits. This usually entails detail stripping. When you do that, you can carefully inspect for things like broken, worn, or poorly modified small parts. This might take an hour or so and costs nothing.

If you don't find anything obvious or suspicious, you should then try cycling the pistol slowly by hand, looking for whatever may be causing the cartridge to get out of control in the feed/extraction/ejection cycle. It is very, very desirable to have another well-functioning pistol of the same model there for comparison. Do your best to beg, borrow, or even just get a good look at a glock 20 of the same generation that works well, comparing side-by-side if at all possible. When you do this you can easily swap major components like slides, recoil springs, and magazines in order to isolate the problem. This is likely to get you an answer a lot faster and cheaper, and with a lot less trouble and frustration, than random parts swapping.

In your particular case, the extractor is the most likely culprit. It is very easy to get particles of brass, carbon, etc. building up under the extractor or in the extractor channel merely through normal use, particularly if the pistol has been overlubricated in that area. This will cause the extractor to fail to grip the cartridge firmly enough or to release it prematurely, which will, in turn, cause an ejection failure. A broken or squashed spring or balky plunger can show up this way too.

The next most likely cause is failure of the slide to cycle completely or forcefully enough. In a modified pistol that has been used to shoot heavy loads, somebody may have installed a recoil spring that is not right for your ammo. It's a good idea to check that the slide doesn't bind somewhere in its normal travel.

If your pistol jams with four new magazines, then it is not too likly that the problem is in the magazines themselves. It is quite possible though, that if the magazine catch or frame is damaged, worn, or modified, then the magazine may not be seating properly, with predictable results.

If all else fails, you might even consider taking your pistol to a good gunsmith (there are a few around). Some of them are Glock certified.


*
thales is offline  
Old August 31, 2006, 07:27 PM   #25
Ausserordeutlich
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Posts: 996
Hope you get this figured out. I can guarantee you one thing. Whatever's causing the problem is something really simple. Off-subject, but I just can't imagine that Robar left that grip looking like that. That would have put the value of the frame pretty close to $0.00 for me.
Ausserordeutlich is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12404 seconds with 8 queries