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Old September 4, 2000, 09:05 PM   #1
Clark
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I had a case failure in a CZ52 7.62x25mm handload that blew up the gun causing the slide, extactor, and barrel to be destroyed.

Last night a hot hand load blew out a case in a Kel-Tek P11 9mm, I got a dirty hand and spent a while finding magazine parts, but that was it.

I do not have pressure measuring equiptment. If I load hotter until a case blows, it could be costly.

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Old September 4, 2000, 10:02 PM   #2
DialONE911
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You might want to stick to factory ammo. You can buy a lot for the cost of a hand and face rebuild.
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Old September 5, 2000, 06:53 PM   #3
Turk
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Clark,

My advice is to stop loading HOT rounds and stick with the powder wts. in the loading manuals. You must be really going over max. charges to have these two guns let loose.

You can consider yourself very fortunate not getting hurt.

Please cease before you get hurt.

Turk
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Old September 5, 2000, 07:09 PM   #4
HiCap
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You're doing it right, just keep loading higher until the gun blows apart, then back off half a grain.
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Old September 5, 2000, 07:23 PM   #5
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Clark,

You really need to stop and think about what you are trying to accomplish.

Please use and stick to published data.

To borrow a line from "Heartbreak Ridge", "Here's to Clark and all the parts of him we couldn't find".



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Old September 5, 2000, 08:02 PM   #6
Clark
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Most people think gun owners are crazy and dangrous. Most gun owners think I am crazy and dangerous.

I have been talking to a few people who have done the exact same thing, but are more discrete.

I was completely blown out by the article on real guns http://www.realguns.com/archives/020.htm


Increasing loads, springs, case support, better brass .. it is intoxicating to me.

So I worked up past 45 Super to 460 Rowland and beyond in a 45. I tested lots of 38 specials to see which ones could take more than 357 mag loads. Now I am in pursuit of the knowledge about 9mm. Life has risks. It's great when we get to choose our own.
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Old September 6, 2000, 01:29 AM   #7
bk40
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put me in your will
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Old September 6, 2000, 09:04 AM   #8
poacher
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Clark

DON'T do this it isn't worth you killing yourself and hurting your family. Might I suggest that if you're looking for some excitement that you try skydiving or bungie jumping? It's gotta be safer than intentionally blowing up guns you're holding.

On the other hand is it just me or does anyone else consider the cost of a weapon expensive? Even if you don't care about what happens to you does'nt it get a tad pricey to continualy repair or buy new handguns? If you really want to do this stuff then at least put the gun in a vise or something and pull the trigger with a cord or chain,anything but your hand.

Ltr Poacher.



[This message has been edited by poacher (edited September 06, 2000).]
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Old September 6, 2000, 02:21 PM   #9
zot
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Clark you can fit ALOT of Winchester 231 in
a 9mm case,I'll bet you can get 1800 FPS with
a 115 gr FMJ,I think you can fit 25 GRs with the bullet compressed. that should blow the gun up GOOD, maybe wear a welding glove and
ballistic vest and kevlar helmet with riot
face sheild.
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Old September 6, 2000, 02:28 PM   #10
Coinneach
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Assuming that Clark isn't just pulling our chains, I have no problem with people who double-dog-dare Uncle Chuck to aim his Evolver at them. I consider suicide to be an individual, if stupid, choice.

Clark, you are aware that you're asking to be skimmed from the gene pool, yes?
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Old September 6, 2000, 05:48 PM   #11
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Excuse me, but blowing stuff up like this is stupid. Especially if you have to visit an ER to have chunxametal picked outta your tender anatomy.

These handguns aren't made to take the higher pressures (and pressures don't go up gradually - They tend to climb suddenly, okay?) of the hotter stuff... I mean, I load at around 60-65,000 psi for my 6PPC, but the action should be able to handle something on the order of 250,000 psi. I'm comfy with that. HOWEVER, if the action could only max out at 70,000 psi, I'd be loading considerably lighter. CONSIDERABLY.

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Old September 6, 2000, 08:24 PM   #12
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"So I worked up past 45 Super to 460 Rowland and beyond in a 45. I tested lots of 38 specials to see which ones could take more than 357 mag loads. Now I am in pursuit of the knowledge about 9mm. Life has risks. It's great when we get to choose our own."

I hope you truly are doing this on your own as I'd hate to be standing next to you on the fire line.

You will probably end up becoming a good tragic news story that the anti gun press can hold up as propaganda to forward their agenda.

Knock yourself out.


[This message has been edited by Contender (edited September 06, 2000).]
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Old September 7, 2000, 05:29 AM   #13
Hal
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I can just see the story in the paper now:

"Gun fanatic's homemade ammunition blows up gun and maims innocent bystanders. An 11 year old child was one injured when the overly dangerous homemade ammunition of a local gun fanatic blew up. There is some question as to the sobriety of the gun owner, hinging on statement he made on the internet of "Loading while intoxicated". The County is looking at a ban on the dangerous practice of untrained people manufacturing overly dangerous ammuniton, and is considering a ban on the equipment used in this dangerous pastime."

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Old September 7, 2000, 07:24 AM   #14
Tom Matiska
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The point of your experiments is???? If you want to shoot a 460 Rowland or a 357 Mag why not buy one? All you are doing is proving weaker cartidges can be made to blow up, and that has been well proven long ago by many others.

An old Air force saying I'm fond of is "metal has a perfect memory". Just like with airplanes, the metal in your guns remembers everything you are doing to it, and some day it will remind you of past abuses. You should have your remaining guns examined by a qualified gunsmith to see if they are still safe to shoot.

Tom

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Clark:
So I worked up past 45 Super to 460 Rowland and beyond in a 45. I tested lots of 38 specials to see which ones could take more than 357 mag loads. Now I am in pursuit of the knowledge about 9mm. Life has risks. It's great when we get to choose our own.[/quote]

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Old September 7, 2000, 09:31 AM   #15
Clark
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The above posts boil down to:
"I wouldn't do that and so anyone who would must be crazy and dangerous"

That is exactly the sort of thinking the anti gun people have. Just because they know nothing of safe gun handling, no one else can. I hope there is more intellegent life than this at Firing Line
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Old September 7, 2000, 10:26 AM   #16
griz
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Although Clark doesn’t mention it in this thread, he has said before some of the precautions he takes, remote firing, wear measurements etc. I for one find this kind of thing interesting but don’t have the sacrificial guns to try it. If it wasn’t for careful experimenters, we wouldn’t have the 454’s, 460 Rowland and such to buy, we would have stuck with the 44 special and not risked anything with higher pressure. Keep up the good work Clark, but do be careful.
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Old September 7, 2000, 11:24 AM   #17
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Clark, I _KNOW_ that if I try to load a .308 to .30/378 velocities, I'm going to be quite likely wearing the bolt in the middle of my face. Avoiding such a "piercing" is a prudent way to go through life. Sure I _can_ stuff that case full of Bullseye, but that doesn't mean that I'd recommend it. A local indoor range has a full size .44 mag with the top of the cylinder gone, along with the top strap, where someone figured that Win700 was the same as Win296, and just stuffed the case full. Another guy I know, who is not a gun person, was given a muzzle loader, and went down to a local gun shop for the fixins, and must have seriously ****** someone off, because they sold him a pound of Bullseye - Good thing I caught him, because his instructions were something along the lines of "pour a bunch in."

For me, it doesn't matter how fast the train's moving, just so long as it goes to the right station, and doesn't wreck on the way.

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Old September 7, 2000, 11:30 AM   #18
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The above posts boil down to:
"I wouldn't do that and so anyone who would must be crazy and dangerous"[/quote]

NO, Clark, that's not what we're saying. We're saying that you're knowingly and willingly taking unnecessary chances. Or do you fancy yourself to be more competent than SAAMI, RCBS, Lee, Dillon, Winchester, Alliant, Olin, Peter Pi, and Fernando Coelho?

Like I said, you're tempting Darwin, and when he gets tired of being teased, the rest of us are gonna get blamed for your actions. If you want to kill yourself, that's your business, but you don't need to involve us responsible handloaders in your freaky crusade of self-destruction.
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Old September 7, 2000, 02:26 PM   #19
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Of course, let me tell you about how a lot of benchresters hunt a load... They'll keep increasing the charge until a primer pops, and then they'll back it off a little - A lot of 6PPC rifles shoot very well at this level, but it is a little disconcerting, and it's a mad scramble if it happens in a match. DO NOT do this if you're not HIGHLY competent. No offense, but most of you ain't. That includes you, Clark. Here we're talking pressures in the 65-70,000 range, with custom made actions that will handle 250,000, so as long as the gas is properly channeled, you'll be okay... DO NOT try this with your Remchester, and especially don't try it with any sort of automatic, lever action, pump, or other thing that's hanging around your cabinet... Repeater bolt actions will have too much stretch - The custom actions are solid single shot actions...

At 60-65,000 pressures, the brass tends to compress the bolt/lugs a bit over about a thousandth or so, and the brass is usually bumped back about a thousandth. At higher pressures, you can have the brass growing several thou... That movement has to be somewhere, right? Your bolt will maybe need assistance from Mr. Rubber Hammer in opening, etc., and will need extensive sizing to rechamber. In addition, this tends to wear out the brass rather rapidly also, and at $2 each for prepped brass, that adds up. You'll get cases that won't even hold a primer anymore... Personally, I don't usually load that hot. I DO NOT recommend that anyone else do it without a lot of careful consideration and study with someone else who is doing it...

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Old September 7, 2000, 08:12 PM   #20
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Clark:
Most people think gun owners are crazy and dangrous. Most gun owners think I am crazy and dangerous.[/quote]

Well, from some of the descriptions, you can count me in with those gun owners. Why in the world would you risk serious injury like you do?


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Old September 7, 2000, 08:23 PM   #21
George Hill
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This is a possible result from following Clark's "intoxicating" quests...


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Old September 8, 2000, 12:03 AM   #22
Johnny Guest
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Clark--
Please----

1. Study above photograph

2. Check e-mail

Thanks,
Johnny
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Old September 8, 2000, 07:02 AM   #23
Tom Matiska
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George:

Great pic. It speaks a thousands words(but to a deaf person I'm afraid). I wish I had a pick to post of a friend who managed to blow up a compressed load in the press while seating a bullet. His eyebrows and lashes were gone and his hairline was moved back a few inches thanks to the fireball.

Clark:

Your brass was probably talking to you well before the explosion, but you were not listening. Ever mic the case heads as you slowly work up to published limits? Any increases in difficulty on the resizing stroke? Notice excessive stretching of the case wall when you trimmed them back to limits? Changes in the primer pocket when you seated the primers?.

Even without pressure measuring equipment you can see the need to stop, sometimes this even happens well below some published limits.

Tom

[This message has been edited by Tom Matiska (edited September 08, 2000).]
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Old September 8, 2000, 09:27 AM   #24
Clark
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To those with the support, thank you.

To those critical of my work,
I am sure no one wants me to fill this forum with math
derivations on stress, nor am I advocating that others perform
destructive tests on guns like I do.

That said, let me emphasize that am an engineer doing engineering
research. As an engineer, formally trained to perform these sorts of
tests, I am taking adequate and reasonable precaution, proceeding in
an orderly and deliberate test protocol, and compiling extensive data.

Others in this forum and elsewhere have expressed specific interest in
my findings.

I hope to develop a concealed carry firearm of higher firepower to
weight ratio and with acceptable safety margins than is commercially
available. Calculating this data requires destructive testing using
loads which exceed the threshold of case and/or firearm failure.


Testing and compiling destructive load data is fundamental research in
the development of firearms and ammo technology. Such testing is the
appropriate role of engineering research and development. Indeed
finding the threshold of catastrophic failure is the whole point of
this data gathering exercise.

I am providing this research with sufficient and emphatic warning that
these loads result in catastrophic failure of firearms and ammo.

Accordingly, I post in this forum in the interest of informing readers
about the process of developing new firearms and ammunition. I would
expect that an audience that can be trusted with a firearm, might also
be trusted with the free exchange of information.

If I share anymore data it will not be at the Firing Line under this heading.
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Old September 8, 2000, 10:34 AM   #25
Mikul
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Clark, I'm with you. I wish you best of luck.

OTOH, every time I try out a new load, a picture like the one posted comes into my head as I pull the trigger... and I'm working with book-tested loads.

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