The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Hunt

View Poll Results: Which non-magnum handgun would be most effective again a bear, or mountain lion?
10 mm, with it's best hunting load 18 78.26%
9 mm, with it's best hunting load 1 4.35%
357 sig, with it's best hunting load 1 4.35%
40 S&W with it's best hunting load 0 0%
45 ACP with it's best hunting load 3 13.04%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 24, 2006, 12:44 PM   #1
Oregongundude
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2006
Location: Oregon
Posts: 205
I've read alot of different opinions on which handgun would be best against bears?

I have read alot of different opinions on what non-magnum handgun cartridge would be the most effective again a bear, or mountain lion? I would like to run a poll on the one's that would be the best selections and can be carry concealed. Truely, I realize the magnum's are the best. However, if you don't have a magnum what would you settle with? If you didn't have any choice.

There is a table with all five of these handguns mentioned in the poll with their best hunting loads which one would you grab to fight a medium size black bear around 350 pounds.

Last edited by Oregongundude; August 24, 2006 at 03:12 PM.
Oregongundude is offline  
Old August 24, 2006, 01:33 PM   #2
Ian2005
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 355
-On a side note, I posted a message in the revolver forum - its about S&W 500ES - marketed as bear survival kit. Anyone know anything about it?
Ian2005 is offline  
Old August 24, 2006, 01:38 PM   #3
Oregongundude
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2006
Location: Oregon
Posts: 205
Yes I saw that thread.

It's a kit in a yellow box, I think the cost was well over 1000 dollars wasn't it? I guess the point was to see out of handguns that most of us use what would be the best round out of them to use against a bear. I Think the bear survival kit would be an option if you heading up into Kodiak, Grizzly county.


Last edited by Oregongundude; August 24, 2006 at 02:54 PM.
Oregongundude is offline  
Old August 24, 2006, 01:58 PM   #4
Scorch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 11,425
I know a few guys who lived and guided in Alaska, and to a man they will tell you that even the most anemic rifle has more OOMPH than the biggest handgun. A lot of guides carry 12 ga loaded with slugs for bear work, or 338s or 375s, probably even a few 416s and 458s out there too. So, if a handgun was such a good tool, why aren't more guides using them? And if the guides don't carry them because they are not practical, why would you want to?

Mountain lions are relatively easy to kill, so it's not even an issue if you will have enough power. Besides that, in most states they're not legal for taking game. But seriously, these rounds are for killing bipeds, not for tough animals like bears.
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
But what do I know?
Summit Arms Services
Taylor Machine
Scorch is offline  
Old August 24, 2006, 02:58 PM   #5
Oregongundude
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2006
Location: Oregon
Posts: 205
Yes, I understand the facts about killing bears

But if you had no other choice I would think the 10 mm is getting close.

I would perfer a 12 ga shootgun with slugs no doubt about it.

Oregongundude is offline  
Old August 24, 2006, 04:09 PM   #6
Twycross
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2005
Location: Montana
Posts: 1,187
Of the listed choices, 10mm is hands down the best, assuming that it is using the original hot loads, and not the standard factory stuff.
__________________
The test of character is not 'hanging in' when you expect light at the end of the tunnel, but performance of duty, and persistence of example when you know no light is coming.
- Vice Admiral James Stockdale, USN (ret.)
Twycross is offline  
Old August 24, 2006, 08:12 PM   #7
FirstFreedom
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2004
Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A.
Posts: 12,451
A lot of questions posed on TFL are difficult to answer - this is not one of them:

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...599f4a2425c242
FirstFreedom is offline  
Old August 25, 2006, 09:54 AM   #8
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,416
Everything I've read about lower-48 black bear indicates that a heavy bullet from a .357 should be plenty.

Mountain lions are comparatively fragile, both physically and psychologically. Not all that hard to kill; not all that hard to scare. A lion that had attacked a couple of kids up in Big Bend National Park, some years back, was killed via a .38 Special. (Dunno how many shots or what ammo. Probably 158-grain RNL, from knowing the shooter.)

Art
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old August 25, 2006, 12:03 PM   #9
Oregongundude
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2006
Location: Oregon
Posts: 205
The only thing about Mountain lions that's a problem.

Yes you can kill a mountain lion a lot easier than a black bear. But Mountain lions are masters at ambushing you when you least expect the attack. You get a big male Mountain lion say 200 pounds and they hit you full speed it will feel like you have been hit by a truck. Now, can you get a shot off while this powerful animal is trying to sink his teeth in your neck, that's the question. In the Southern California foot hills there have been several attacks on humans jogging and riding bikes and very few have survived. The mountain lions that kill a human will kill more Humans again. It's a proven fact.


Last edited by Oregongundude; August 26, 2006 at 10:57 PM.
Oregongundude is offline  
Old August 25, 2006, 01:05 PM   #10
FirstFreedom
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2004
Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A.
Posts: 12,451
Art, the choice is .357 sig, not .357 mag. The Sig cannot even begin to hang with the .357 mag with heavy bullets - in fact, it's not even loaded heavier than 147 I don't believe. So, although the .357 mag with heavies like 180s is the equal of 10mm, or even past it, the .357 sig cannot hold a candle. Hence the choice of 10mm being the no-brainer in this particular choice of options,at least IMO.

If you seriously think that you have lions which are not afraid of humans, here's your indispensable puma-woods bummin accessory:

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-24-Black-Lea...QQcmdZViewItem

While they go for the neck kill, this should buy you just enough time to draw and fire repeatedly. You'll probably be gutted, however, in the meantime until the cat dies, so carry some duct tape to use in combination with your shirt, to keep your intestines inside until you can get back to civilization and medical care. Ain't nuttin' duct tape can't fix.

Last edited by FirstFreedom; August 25, 2006 at 02:09 PM.
FirstFreedom is offline  
Old August 25, 2006, 01:46 PM   #11
Oregongundude
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2006
Location: Oregon
Posts: 205
Some Hot loads for the .40 S&W may do a good job as well.

Everyone is thinking about the same as me on the right choice for the selections about. But after some additional thought I would think that some hot loads for the .40 S&W may work as well.
Oregongundude is offline  
Old August 25, 2006, 05:14 PM   #12
swampdog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2006
Location: Dismal Swamp, NC
Posts: 338
Quote:
Some Hot loads for the .40 S&W may do a good job as well.
Some hot loads for any of the calibers you mentioned "may do a good job".
You obviously love your .40. Will it do the job? Sure. Is it the best tool for the job? It sounds like it is, for you.
I'll just keep toting my overweight, archiac, small capacity, magnum wheelgun. For me, it is the best tool for the job. I have been thinking about a 10mm, though, which is what I voted for, btw.
It's funny but no one seems to have voted for the 40. I wonder why?

FF,
I really liked the studded collar. Possibly a matching leather teddie with ceramic inserts would take care of the "intestinal" problem. Might even start a new fad. It would look better than lime green spandex, anyway.
swampdog is offline  
Old August 25, 2006, 05:29 PM   #13
Oregongundude
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2006
Location: Oregon
Posts: 205
I like my .40 S&W and it would more than likely kill a bear if it's all I had.

However, for the poll I would take a 10 mm over a .40 S&W just because it's energy levels are up in the 700++ range and that would acheive better penetration, and it's close to the balistics of the .41 magnum as well. A well known bear hunting pistol. The .40 S&W is the little brother of the 10 mm, and you can hot load it's energy levels up into the upper 500's range which should be effective also. Just a thought anyway, but hey when a bear coming after you I will choose the best handgun available to me at that moment. I like my .40 S&W for BG's and I have seen information where bears have been killed by the .40 S&W. But your right I wouldn't select it over a 10 mm for this purpose unless it was all I had at the time.

Oregongundude is offline  
Old August 25, 2006, 05:53 PM   #14
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,416
Oregongundude, yeah, the cougar has a lot going for it, for sure. The thing is that an attack is a very low probability. Of course, if you walk along staring at your feet, you might have a problem. In lion country, a fella oughta be for looking up as well as around. Doesn't hurt to look back behind, from time to time.

A buddy of mine, over in the Black Gap WMA on the east side of Big Bend National Park, was ambling along, just sorta casual about life itsownself. He kept thinking he heard an occasional sound behind him. He stopped, walked back, and about 30 feet back he saw grass slowly springing back up in a paw print. But, no sign of putty tat, and no more noises.

FirstFreedom, my guiding rule, I guess, is that there are some minima for certain jobs. For black bear and cougars, for me it's generally the .357 Maggie. I'm less emotionally attached to some Pet Pistol than I am toward staying unbitten/uneaten. However, when I'm quail hunting in the far back country, I generally have a Redhawk. That's "In case of in case."

Art
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old August 25, 2006, 06:06 PM   #15
maas
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2005
Location: The state of Jefferson
Posts: 897
well the 10mm is the best on the list, but id still rather have a 45 colt. (its not a magnum)
__________________
I don't try to offend....some times i get lucky!

There's always one thing that makes Republicans look good on election day...........Democrats!
maas is offline  
Old August 25, 2006, 09:40 PM   #16
22-rimfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 19, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 4,594
Pretty dumb poll. You auto guys.... I would not pack less than a 357 magnum if I were concerned about either black bears or cougars. And I would have a good fast sharp belt knife on me as well for close encounters with cougars.
22-rimfire is offline  
Old August 26, 2006, 10:29 PM   #17
Oregongundude
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2006
Location: Oregon
Posts: 205
Hey, thanks for all your comments to this poll.

Yes, it's gear more towards automatics no doubt about it. I feel that a .357 Magnum is a great Magnum level revolver as well. However, I would be hard pressed to say it's better than a 10 mm. I did some reseach at double tap ammo 's web site and found some interesting information involving 180 grain loads for the .357 magnum up to 8 rounds and the 10 mm, let's say a Glock 20 with 15 rounds.

Caliber : 10mm

Bullet : 180gr. XTP-JHP

Ballistics : 180gr. @ 1350fps/ 728 ft/lbs- Glock 20

Caliber : 357 magnum

.357 Magnum 180gr WFNGC
Velocity: 1300fps / 4" Ruger GP-100
Muzzle Energy: 676 ft. lbs.

Now let's look at 135 grain 10 mm rounds compared to 125 grain .357 magnum rounds.

Caliber : 10mm

Bullet : 135gr. Nosler Jacketed Hollow Point.

Ballistics : 1600fps/ 767 ft./lbs. - Glock 20

357 Magnum 125gr. Gold Dot

Velocity: 1600fps / 4" Ruger GP-100
Muzzle Energy: 710 ft. lbs.




I think I would take the Glock 20 10 mm over the .357 Magnum for bears just based on the energy levels and rounds capacity at least. The .357 is a fine revolver but it's second to the 10 mm in alot of ways. I think I will pick up a Glock 20 to add to my collection.


Last edited by Oregongundude; August 26, 2006 at 11:03 PM.
Oregongundude is offline  
Old August 26, 2006, 10:59 PM   #18
Socrates
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2005
Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia
Posts: 5,866
None Of The Above

Bear spray. Bring a chemical fire extingusher...
Bring a dog with you...
I would look through all of these fluffy calibers you list, find the heaviest flat nosed, solid bullet I could find, get it going as fast as I could, and pray a lot...

Please don't say 'bear' and 125 grain hollowpoint in the same sentence.

Hunting mountain lions, and stopping them, as with bear, are two different issues. Black bears are often run with dogs, as are mountain lions, and then shot out of trees, with a variety of marginal weapons, up to, and including, 22 short. A percise shot with a 22 short will give you 6" of penetration, getting a major artery, if you know what you are doing, and, the animal will hardly know it's been shot, which, is an advantage, since it will bleed out, without attacking you, or the dogs. Do I approve of this sort of hunting? NO, but, it's done.

Using a hunting example, when the person is discussing self-defense against a hungry animal, or a cat or mother bear, protecting her young, are really different situations.

They have tape somewhere of a mother cougar driving off an 800 pound brown bear, protecting her cubs. Something about lightning quick claws in the eyes, and nose did the trick.

Statistics show the most effective bear defense is pepper spray, bear pepper spray, and, it works very well against cats, and humans, as well. Handguns are NOT very effective against bears, or lions, in a defense situation. Rifles are, but, that's probably because the guy had the rifle ready, in a hunting situation, as the bear charged, or, the bear gave them a chance to get it out, like attacking a cabin.

finally, getting any of these guns to be reliable with heavy for caliber flat nose bullets is another problem. Stiffer springs, modified feed ramps, maybe necessary for reliability.

S
Socrates is offline  
Old August 26, 2006, 11:08 PM   #19
Oregongundude
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2006
Location: Oregon
Posts: 205
Sorry about the hollow point notes, I sure wouldn't use them.

I was just listing some of the balistics comparison between the .357 Magnum and 10 mm rounds. Yes, I realize that Hollow points wouldn't be a good selection against a bear, Ball ammo would be a far better selection. I'll take my .308 browning automatic and black Lab with me just in case. I'll have my Glock 20 on my side as a back up.

Oregongundude is offline  
Old August 26, 2006, 11:13 PM   #20
Group9
Member
 
Join Date: February 12, 2005
Posts: 27
I picked 10mm, but those are some pretty weak choices there.
Group9 is offline  
Old August 26, 2006, 11:22 PM   #21
Socrates
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2005
Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia
Posts: 5,866
BEAR SPRAY, BEAR SPRAY, BEAR SPRAY!!!!

http://www.udap.com/

http://www.udap.com/markfullstory.htm GO HERE FOR STORIES, AND PICTURES.


http://www.udap.com/bearnews.pdf

s

Last edited by Socrates; August 26, 2006 at 11:29 PM. Reason: ADD INFO
Socrates is offline  
Old August 26, 2006, 11:44 PM   #22
Oregongundude
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2006
Location: Oregon
Posts: 205
And I'll grab a can of Bear Stray.

Thanks for your comments on this posting. It's a good thing I don't live in Grizzly county. I will settle with my middle size black bears.
Oregongundude is offline  
Old August 27, 2006, 01:45 AM   #23
maas
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2005
Location: The state of Jefferson
Posts: 897
this is the 10,000 time ive said this (im a little hard headed) the only thing ill spray at a bear is LEAD!!!
__________________
I don't try to offend....some times i get lucky!

There's always one thing that makes Republicans look good on election day...........Democrats!
maas is offline  
Old August 27, 2006, 06:33 AM   #24
Socrates
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2005
Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia
Posts: 5,866
Don't have much against animals, less they want to eat me.
I've got a 510 Linebaugh max, with 525 grain bullets, at 1350 to 1550 fps. Still, against a brown bear, it may kill the bear, but not before it's torn me up, good. My choice is 458 Lott, for bears. Good chance my first shot will get her full attention, and, keep her from coming and eating me.

That said, I'm not much for killing mother animals, protecting their cubs, because I WAS STUPID, and invaded her, and the cubs, space, like the pepper spray guy did. I'm human, so, I'm going to screw up, but, not being able to smell a decaying elk carcass, and wandering into that area, means the guy wasn't watching the wind, and, was plain out of it.

Bear spray is a good way to solve human stupidity, and, not have to have either party pay for ones stupdity.

Reminds me of that idiot, the bear guy, that got eaten. Wasn't the bears' fault, he was just being a bear. Now, he's got to be destroyed, since some stupid human fed himself to a brown bear, that was obviously having problems getting enough food...

Remember: a mother picked a CAR up off her child, thanks to adrenalin, or what ever explanation you have for it. If a mother can do that, what do you think a brown bear, black bear, or mountain lion can do to protect their cubs? Mountain lion will drive off, or die fighting, a brown bear, for her cubs....

S
Socrates is offline  
Old August 27, 2006, 07:23 PM   #25
The Terminator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 3, 2002
Location: Georgia, 35 miles Northwest of the armpit
Posts: 946
I would feel confident with a 10mm, but, if not, I'd pony up the dough and get a 45 to carry +P, (have one) or get a 44mag, or 454. Best -
__________________
The Terminator
John 3:16 (I hope to see You over there.)
The Terminator is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13497 seconds with 8 queries