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Old August 16, 2006, 01:15 AM   #101
Heist
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Wherever she was pointing the gun is irrelevant.

If someone breaks into my house, I will probably be training a gun on my bedroom door.

Would you deny her the same security? Would you say that she deserved to die for that choice? Would you say that I deserve to die should that situation happen to me?

There are no drugs in my house. I have no involvements in any criminal activities and no aquaintances or relatives with any of the same. If someone breaks into my house screaming 'POLICE!' or 'FBI!' or whatever combination of contradictory yells a dynamic entry usually has, I'm not going to assume that the goddamn infinitesimal chance of a mistaken address for a raid has happened. I'm going to be sure that it is a group of criminals exploiting dynamic entries in order to minimize their risk and achieve total compliance and submission.

And Joab, if it is indeed the local SWAT team, do I deserve a death sentence to be summarily handed down from the hands of the master you seem to worship so much, judge, jury, and executioner shooting me down in his infinite wisdom so that he can go home that night, donchaknow? It's a losing proposition. No matter what, whether I don't shoot or do, I will die. If I manage to take cover and kill the first intruders, the following ones will still shoot me, if they are law enforcement. You are not allowed to get away with shooting a brother officer in that sort of situation. I would not be able to surrender fast enough. If they are not law enforcement and the chances of them actually being agents would be so small as to be insignificant seeing as I am not a criminal and I surrender, I can look forward to watching my family being raped and killed. Surrender is not an option. Submission is not an option.

Even if I did live through a genuine SWAT raid, I would be put on death row if even one of them died. Even if they completely screwed it up from start to finish and hit the exact opposite address from where they should have been, I will be painted as someone who should die for defending myself and in the process ending lives, at least the kind that seem to be more special than the other garden variety lives. The thin blue wall will stand firm to ensure that it will be that way.

So tell me, is that justice? Is that something you are proud to envision? Would you be here saying that I 'had it coming', that 'accidents don't happen, he must have been guilty as hell', or that 'a small percentage is a small price to pay for some of our superior class to remain safe'? And if you wouldn't cheer my death, why in the hell would you approve of what happened to this woman?
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Old August 16, 2006, 06:26 AM   #102
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Joab

They were charged with misdemeanor possesion and released on thier own recognizance.

You didnt read the latest article written by Mr. Balko at the Agitator dated 11 Aug 2006 which was quoted. Yours were dated in 2005.

Quote:
That's Charles Noel's version of events. But it's supported by the autopsy done on his wife. And early police accounts of the raid have since been revised. The Baltimore Sun, for example, first reported that police said Noel was pointing her gun at them when they entered. That has since changed. She was holding the gun, but not pointing it at anyone.
Nobody is blaming the police as a whole but the policy of no-knock raids unless just cause is demonstrated and the leadership which allows such things to happen.
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Old August 16, 2006, 06:55 AM   #103
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And the link that DonR101395 asked me for earlier
Baltimore County, Maryland police descend on a home in the Dundalk neighborhood at around 5 a.m. on a narcotics warrant. They deploy a flashbang grenade, then quickly subdue the first-floor occupants -- a man and two young adults.
Doesn't say that the man was the husband but there were no other men mentioned in the article so draw your own conclusions
Whoooaahh, hold up sailor, I am in the same camp as you on this. I stayed out of it the past couple of days because I figured my brain cells would be better used pounding my head into the wall rather try to continue arguing that it was a one sided article written from the side the press wanted you to see. I don't care who did what to who or how they did it unless, I know who all the charactors are, why they did it and I want all three sides of the story.
After watching this play out for the past few days grand dad was right, there's three sides to every story and only one of them is the truth.
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Old August 16, 2006, 07:12 AM   #104
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Do you at least admit the woman is dead? I don't see how anybody can explain that away.



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Old August 16, 2006, 07:39 AM   #105
DonR101395
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Do you at least admit the woman is dead? I don't see how anybody can explain that away.



John
Yep, she was shot three times is how I would explain it

But seriously John, I've got no dog in this fight. I'm not against no knock warrants, I believe they have their place. I won't get into a pi$$ing contest about if one should have been used or not in this instance. I'm not against, people defending their homes, bodies or even their property or that of other people, and when you have both of those sometimes they are going to clash. It's a chance I'm personally willing to take. No cops have busted into my house in the last 39 years or the houses of anyone I have ever known. The only time I hear about it is on the internet or the nightly news and there is always a side story that isn't told. No matter what my personal belief about this case is it doesn't matter. I don't live in Baltimore, I won't be a member of the jury, and no one's lawyer in Baltimore is going to call me and ask my opinion.
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Old August 16, 2006, 07:39 AM   #106
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Didn't mean to lump you into anything Don, I just happened on all the links at the same time

Quote:
Wherever she was pointing the gun is irrelevant.
I bet it's going to be irrelevant to a lot of people here, now..

Heist
Where have I said or implied that anybody deserved anything? No damn where, Throughout this entire pile on Joab tirade I have maintained one point. Simply that there is not enough information to assume that anyone deserved anything.

Apparently some here are either offended that I have the audacity not to trust the family and their trial lawyer or they simply cannot comprehend the fact that there is absolutely no evidence and/or facts presented in that stupid little article.
Quote:
So tell me, is that justice? Is that something you are proud to envision? Would you be here saying that I 'had it coming', that 'accidents don't happen, he must have been guilty as hell', or that 'a small percentage is a small price to pay for some of our superior class to remain safe'? And if you wouldn't cheer my death, why in the hell would you approve of what happened to this woman?
Pretty speech but what does that have to do with my unwavered position throughout this discussion?
Quote:
They were charged with misdemeanor possession and released on thier own recognizance.
That has been covered before Eghad.
Quote:
Nobody is blaming the police as a whole
Perhaps you should read the first five or so posts. The ones that I initially responded to. You will see my entire stand on this issue.
All other posts have been made as a direct response to attacks made against that opinion.
(Except for Don's, which was a request that I verify info that I posted. Which I should have done in the first place)

It is beyond my comprehension why a group of supposedly intelligent people would react so to a call for more info than a one sided clearly biased report .

Some people have agendas, I understand that, some are juvenile and petty I can accept that.
But others who I would expect to demand journalistic integrity and others who have made completely opposite comments regarding similar events in the past I don't get

Trip20 made a comment a little earlier
Quote:
This article should have brought on discussion of a disturbing police policy. Instead, it's been a circle of useless arguments over irrelevant particulars.
In a way he is right but then he is also wrong.
The conversation had steered in that direction and I stayed out of it while it did.
I was dragged back in by an agenda driven snipe attack which resulted in a pile on by the usual players, with the addition of one more, who refuse to read my initial comment and refuse to accept that I have one agenda here, and that is to point out a rush to blame the cops based on one article favoring the family and their trial lawyer.
That's when the circle of uselessness, word twisting and agenda started

And I missed this comment by rangermonroe earlier
Quote:
Especially when we have taken a single news story, and picked it apart to molecular levels.
If you reduce a **** to molecular level all you have is **** molecules, that has been my position all along.

Now everybody can address that issue, accept that that is my issue, address the comments that I have actually made in the context that they were made without some glorified speeches about anyone deserving death, or simply let it pass.
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Old August 16, 2006, 08:13 AM   #107
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joab, you make great points regarding the need to view information sources with a skeptic's eye, as the truth most often lies somewhere in the middle.

This seems to be your point (in its most basic form) through out this thread - or at least that's what I take away from your comments.

I wouldn't agree that everything in the article must be fact simply because it's in the article - especially given the source of the information.

Even under this deduction, in my opinion it is righteous to immediately attack the Baltimore Police due to their use of a no-knock policy - a policy that insurmountably increased the probability of death or great bodily harm on both sides - good guys and suspected bad guys..

Now if we need to be particular and relate that sentiment to the article; all of this avoidable danger and death was - it appears - over a small bag of weed probably kept for personal consumption. This resulted in an unnecessary death, and an arrest of less than principal proportions (given the price paid by both the family and the department), whereby the criminal in this case (husband) was released on his own recognizance - to go mourn the death of his wife no less.
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Old August 16, 2006, 09:31 AM   #108
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HEIST, you speak wisely, but I would add a slight difference to your assertion here:

Quote:
No matter what, whether I don't shoot or do, I will die. If I manage to take cover and kill the first intruders, the following ones will still shoot me, if they are law enforcement. You are not allowed to get away with shooting a brother officer in that sort of situation. I would not be able to surrender fast enough.
I don't think that's necessarily true. If you think you are being attacked by criminals, and successfully repel the first wave of invaders, perhaps killing one or more of them (in hindsight when you find out they are LEO it will be unfortunate, but we don't have that luxury of knowledge in this scenario), then the force will look to re-group and re-assault your position, and yes, assuredly, they will want to kill you. BUT, *if* you have a strong enough defensive position, and enough firepower to hold them off, then you can hope and pray that the media shows up with cameras, and THEN and only then announce loudly with a megaphone for example that you are coming out unarmed to surrender since you have learned they are LEO since the initial criminal assaults (in your mind). Then, more likely than not, they won't be able to murder you as you surrender. Then you get your day in court to explain how you did nothing wrong, and it was plain self-defense, and you just may win if you can only get your day in court. Dead men don't tell tales, and the cops know this. So the KEY is having a very strong defensive setup, stuff like security bars and other measures giving you the upper hand in the ordinary no-knock raid scenario, which of course, for all you know at 4am is criminal home invaders.
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Old August 16, 2006, 09:37 AM   #109
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So the KEY is having a very strong defensive setup, stuff like security bars and other measures giving you the upper hand in the ordinary no-knock raid scenario
Like the Branch Davidians?

FF-
The very fact that you have to think along these lines to protect yourself from mistaken State Sponsored Raids proves the point that most people here are making. Nothing good can come of the continued use of Dark-O-Night No Knocks based on "informant tips" or regarding routine warrant service....nothing.
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Old August 16, 2006, 10:17 AM   #110
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"Hey, Rangermonroe, Whatcha doin'?

"We don't live in a bad neighborhood round here? Whats with them burgular bars 'n' such?"

"Cletus, you know I'm honest and upright. Go myse'f to church right often. It's the po-lice thats got me out here hardenin' up my bunker."
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Old August 16, 2006, 10:44 AM   #111
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Rich, the Branch Davidians didn't surrender, remember? They didn't say, we're all coming out with our hands up, so don't shoot, did they?

You make a good point yourself, but I believe you are in error in attempting to invalidate my point, that there is at least one thing which can be attempted, which MAY work, if you find yourself in a situation where you mistakenly defend yourself from real actual LEOs, not knowing they are LEOs, then discovering so and "surrendering" to their authority and bogus charge of murder, so that you can have your day in court and present your defense of self-defense. No, you certainly shouldn't HAVE to do anything of the sort, but the fact remains that there is something one CAN do (in addition to voting and trying to change the current system), if one chooses to expend the time and money to do so, and that is have better than average door locks and other defenses.
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Old August 16, 2006, 10:49 AM   #112
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FF-
Of course, in your case, your public comments here would probably sink ay defense you attempted to raise.

The State would argue that you planned and prepped for that fateful evening; that you intended to kill anyone who invaded your domicile; that you were well aware that the people you were shooting might well be LEO's. That you even bought a bullhorn so that you could address the Media. I think the State would probably win.
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Old August 16, 2006, 11:00 AM   #113
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"We don't live in a bad neighborhood round here? Whats with them burgular bars 'n' such?"

"Cletus, you know I'm honest and upright. Go myse'f to church right often. It's the po-lice thats got me out here hardenin' up my bunker."
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Old August 16, 2006, 11:43 AM   #114
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Rich, I really don't believe that the outcome of this policy was correct. I do, however, believe that there are circumstances where the "no-knock" warrant service is appropriate. Just like anything else, when there is a right way and a wrong way, somebody in charge will screw it up. To decide that "no-knock" warrants are universally wrong because of this, though, is a lot akin to throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Perhaps it's time for the state legislatures to come up with a means of limiting the "no-knock" process? Maryland and Virginia, where the dentist was similiarly killed, are extremely liberal in many counties. It's appears obvious that the appointed leadership of the various LEAs in these areas lacks the ability to discern risk to it's officers, and it's population.
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Old August 16, 2006, 12:00 PM   #115
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I, for one, don't support no-knocks. Most of them are sheer self-indulgence, and I suspect often not on the part of the workin' LEOs that have to beat down the door. In nearly every instance, there are slower, less exciting ways to accomplish the same goal. Ways a lot less likely to get headlines and coverage on the evening news.

Nevertheless, blame must be shared by the guys and occasional gal making dynamic entries. It doesn't wash to say "They're only following orders," not when those orders are in violation of the Constitution and contrary to morality. In each individual instance of a no-knock, the people who are in a position to ask, "Gee, boss, couldn't we just stake 'em out and take them down in daylight, outdoors?" or even to say "Nope, I'm not kicking down that door," are officers of the law.

Look at the instance under discussion: a woman was killed over a couple of misdemeanor arrests. Might as well have been jaywalking or running away from an officer who'd Terry-stopped her,* instead of being a part of the idiotic War On Some Drugs. There's no reason for anyone to die over this sort of penny-ante nonsense. No private citizen, no policeman, nobody.

Everyone involved -- that includes us jabbering onlookers -- needs to stand up and say Enough!

But I'm not holding my breath. There's always going to be a little weasel murmuring, "But those people weren't good. Not like me. Better them than me." As long as we remain silent, our future is in the hands of the people whose motto is, "Do it to Julia," just like Orwell's protagonist.

Maybe he got the image wrong -- maybe the future is a boot kicking in the front door of our homes, forever.

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Old August 16, 2006, 12:28 PM   #116
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To decide that "no-knock" warrants are universally wrong because of this, though, is a lot akin to throwing the baby out with the bath water.
JR-
I've never said that and will never say that. I didn't see where anyone else did, either. There are hostage situations; barricade situations; known violent offender situations. Sure, there are reasons for No-Knocks...but just having a SWAT Team is not a reason; getting your SWAT raid numbers up for budget purposes is not a reason; serving a search warrant on John Q. Public because some uncorroborated slime-ball told you "he's dealing crack in there....now will you let me slide?" is not a reason.

When we take an eight man team and put them in the field for 5 hours to serve a simple warrant for arrest or search, we use up 40 man hours...and people get killed; families get terrorized. Does it not make more sense to put a two man team in the field for 8 hours and serve the subject on the sidewalk? Or maybe walk into their place of work? Catch them coming out of the house in the morning? Leaving work? Arriving home? Going to church?

How on earth did Law Enforcement get anything done prior to the No-Knock?
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Old August 16, 2006, 12:30 PM   #117
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Wow, go away for a couple days, and this happens.

I will state that, as a police officer, I am as skeptical as anyone as to the truthfulness of the story. I am sure the lawyer is grandstanding, gathering sympathy from the upcoming jury pool. Thats his job, and if he were my attorney, I would expect nothing less.

However, the point remains that if the no-knock had no been performed, chances are everyone would still be alive.

No-knocks have their place, but it is a VERY limited place, and one misdemeanor arrest is not that place, not by a long shot.

These types of incidents make me sick. They make me want to get out of the profession all together. My brothers too often forget that we, as peace officers, are sworn to uphold the Constitution and its Bill of Rights. All of them, not just the ones that the USSC and the Police Administration deem valid this week.

We, as guardians of the weak, are tasked to protect the citizenry. ALL of them. We are not judge, jury, nor executioner. We owe those we suspect of a crime the same protection as those who the alleged crime was perpetrated against.

Too many times, I hear that "it is not the individual officers' fault." You know what, it is the individual officers' fault. Every single officer in that long chain of events agreed to do this, to violate some facet of the Bill of Rights, and each and every officer is guilty of that, from the brass that signed off on it, to the guy with the door ram. Each of them has the blood of that lady, however guilty or innocent she might have been, on their hands.


We also must remember that , while the officers were not indicted, this does not mean they were innocent. Its simply means that there was not enough evidence to prove otherwise. When the only people in the crime scene are cops, its easy to make cops look like they are in the right. Ther is a LARGE chasm between "Not Guilty" and "Innocent."
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Old August 16, 2006, 06:43 PM   #118
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There is a time and place for no knock entries. Such as a known drug house where the inhabitants have a hitstory of criminal violence and are known to posess weapons and wouldnt be hestitant about using them. I have no problem with that. Hostage situations, locations that have a history of violent activities where deadly force has been used.

I do have a problem with a no knock where the folks have not had so much as a jaywalking ticket and the evidence is based on a few marijuana seeds. Where possesion of marijuana by an individual is a misdemeanor. If I was judge and somebody came to me I would want to see evidence that they were distributing marijuana or other drugs from the house. I would want some proof that they were selling mass qunatities of marijuana. If you couldnt prove that they were then my warrant would say that the police had damn well better knock on the door when they serve the warrant.

How hard can it be to stake out a house and watch it for a period of time? Do some homework instead of the word of an informant who may be unreliable.
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Old August 17, 2006, 06:23 PM   #119
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Thanks, liliysdad, . . .

May God bless,
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Old August 18, 2006, 09:45 AM   #120
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Thanks, liliysdad, . . .
Don't thank me for doing what I am supposed to do. Thank my father for instilling what most call naivety into my code of ethics. Thank those cops who most would call dinosaurs for showing me that the calling is for "Peace Officers", and not "Law Enforcement Officers." Thank my wife and daughter for reminding me that what I do is for a real reason, and not for a power trip.
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Old August 18, 2006, 10:22 AM   #121
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Nobody is blaming the police as a whole
I am. The police involved in this incident, IMO, are guilty of murder. Plain and simple....Very sloppy investigative work. The war on drugs will be this nations downfall. Rights of citizens lost, a new breed of para-military cop on the streets. This womans death should have never happened, and I blame the war on drugs, the police that were involved, and any police officer and citizen that supports these tactics.
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