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Old August 15, 2006, 02:10 PM   #51
rangermonroe
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Nope, considering that the article that started the thread states that the lawyer said the woman was pointing the gun at the floor, not at the cop.
Where she was pointing the gun should have no basis at all on the justification of the shoot.

Let's assume for a minute that she was a dirtbag protecting her turf. 4am, shouting, flashlights, lots of men running around in her house. Sleepily grabs her gun to protect the "innocent children" under her care. Armed man enters her bedroom on the second floor, (presumably) shouting...yet she still doesn't fire.

Which one of us, "Honest, law-abiding", under the same circumstances, wouldn't have been reloading before the 1st cop hit the floor.

It seems to me that the untrained civilian woman criminal showed more restraint than the SWAT pro.

Before y'all go nuts on me here, I know that she was an alledged criminal, and I probably would not have fired on the cop at all....let alone got off a full mag.

I think that this situation is total crap.
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Old August 15, 2006, 02:19 PM   #52
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This whole thing is absurd. If the police conduct an unfruitful, 4 AM raid into your home and you're pointing a gun at the bedroom door as it crashes down, who is at fault for your death? Why should you be required to determine who they are in a fraction of a second, while they are under no requirement to determine who you are, given all the time and resources in the world....before they launch the offensive assault on your castle.

Just how many of these cases are we gonna dismiss as "bad luck" or even "justifiable shooting" before we start taking these Agencies to task for the absurd Policies and Procedures that virtually guarantee more Cheryl Noels?
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Old August 15, 2006, 02:31 PM   #53
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Rich said what I meant

Well said rich
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Old August 15, 2006, 02:50 PM   #54
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Cheryl Noel's stepdaughter had been murdered several years earlier, and her son had recently been jumped by thugs on his way home. So the family had a legal, registered handgun in the home, and Noel had reason to be frightened.

Quote:
When a SWAT officer kicked open the bedroom door, Noel sat up in bed with the gun, apparently pointed downward, not at the officer. The officer, who was wearing a helmet, mask, shield, and bulletproof vest, and who came in behind a bulletproof ballistic shield, fired twice. Noel slumped over, and the gun slipped out of her hand. The officer then walked over to her and ordered her to move further away from the gun. She couldn't, of course. When she didn't, he shot her a third time, essentially from point-blank range.

That's Charles Noel's version of events. But it's supported by the autopsy done on his wife. And early police accounts of the raid have since been revised. The Baltimore Sun, for example, first reported that police said Noel was pointing her gun at them when they entered. That has since changed. She was holding the gun, but not pointing it at anyone.
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After her death, neighbors circulated a petition vouching for her character and integrity. She ran Bible study groups on her lunch break. She's dead not because she's any sort of threat to society, but because Baltimore County police decided to conduct a 4:30am, no-knock raid after finding seeds of marijuana in the family trash.
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I'll have more on this later. I've spoken at length with Charles Noel and with Roberts, as well as with several friends of the family.
as Rich said dangerous for the Cops too:

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Back in November 2002, Lewis Cauthorne was in the basement of his Baltimore home when heard the screams of his mother, girlfriend, and three-year-old daughter. Baltimore police were conducting a no-knock raid on his home, based on a tip from a single, anonymous informant. Police never announced themselves, and raided in street clothes. Cauthorne emerged from the basement with a handgun, shooting and wounding four of the invading police officers. Cops returned fire. Fortunately, no one was killed in the crossfire.

Cauthorne spent the next seven weeks in jail. Finally, in January of 2003, prosecutors dropped the charges against him, concluding that Cauthorne had reason to believe his life was in danger. Damn right, he did.
http://www.theagitator.com/archives/026909.php

What Charles Noel and the family members eneded up being charged with were misdemeanor possesion of marijuana, he posessed over 5 lbs of blackpowder and they were released on without bail.

Pretty damn sad state of affairs when we start killing our citizens over a couple of baggies of marijuana. I just dont understand the need to do a full blown no knock raid on people who have no history of criminal violence. Incompetence, laziness and arrogance by some person in charge.
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Old August 15, 2006, 03:20 PM   #55
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Well put Rich.
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Old August 15, 2006, 03:37 PM   #56
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The officer then walked over to her and ordered her to move further away from the gun. She couldn't, of course. When she didn't, he shot her a third time, essentially from point-blank range.
On the one hand, 'That doesn't matter to me at all. If he was justified to shoot to kill one time, then who is to say when is enough?'

On the other hand, 'If he came to arrest in the dark of night, in fully protective garb, invading a home where children slept, what would a reasonable person expect to encounter? A person lying prostrate on the floor, awaiting what fate may come? Or an outraged homeowner protecting the lives and property that fall under her charge?'

A Homeowner is not allowed to set a booby trap in his house to kill a burglar. Not only that you might kill the innocent, but also the guilty. The punishment must fit the crime. Burglary is not a capital offense.

Marijuanna (or heroin) possesion is not a capital offense.

Quote:
Cauthorne spent the next seven weeks in jail. Finally, in January of 2003, prosecutors dropped the charges against him, concluding that Cauthorne had reason to believe his life was in danger.
So he was in effect "punished" for seven weeks for protecting his own life.

I see a wider and wider net being cast that ensnares both the guilty and the innocent, all in the name of safety for us all.

It seems that it is making allies of the crook and lawabiding. I will consider the accused to be innocent until proven otherwise.
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Old August 15, 2006, 04:38 PM   #57
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The Baltimore City Police Department, and the Baltimore County Police Department are separate entities. The City of Baltimore exists as a stand-alone, just like another county, in Maryland.

Rich, I agree with you that there has been no evidence supplied that would justify a "no-knock" warrant. However, all we seem to be hearing is the information released by the family's attorney, and the people in the house, wherever they were located during the incident. That through the filter of the media, a source of unimpeachable accuracy, right?

I also find it troubling that many are also already convinced that the outcome of the events, should they not be in favor of the deceased's family, simply means that the fix is in. Are we that close to thinking like the rioters in the Rodney King Trial?
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Old August 15, 2006, 04:41 PM   #58
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This whole thing is absurd. If the police conduct an unfruitful, 4 AM raid into your home and you're pointing a gun at the bedroom door as it crashes down, who is at fault for your death? Why should you be required to determine who they are in a fraction of a second, while they are under no requirement to determine who you are, given all the time and resources in the world....before they launch the offensive assault on your castle.
Read that again.

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while they are under no requirement to determine who you are, given all the time and resources in the world....before they launch the offensive assault on your castle.
Well said. There should be more that rights violation charges being pursued.
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Old August 15, 2006, 04:49 PM   #59
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However, all we seem to be hearing is the information released by the family's attorney, and the people in the house, wherever they were located during the incident. That through the filter of the media, a source of unimpeachable accuracy, right?
What I hear is publically announced accusations by the (victim's) family.

What I have not heard is any justification by the armed, home-invaders who perpetuated a homicide.

Last edited by rangermonroe; August 15, 2006 at 05:21 PM.
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Old August 15, 2006, 05:10 PM   #60
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JR47-
I'm not arguing against the actions of the individual cops in this case....for the hundredth time, I'm arguing against the No-Knock POLICY in routine cases.

With that understood, here's what we know:
- The raid provided no evidence of real criminal activity in the home....none; zero; nada; zip

- No serious charges were filed against ANYONE in the Noel household.

- ANOTHER US citizen is dead; gunned down by agents of the State in her damned BEDROOM AT 4 IN THE MORNING

- Many on this very web site are looking at it as "just another day" in the law enforcement life of the "Most Free Nation On Earth".

How could freedom loving Americans NOT be incensed by this growing trend?
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Old August 15, 2006, 05:55 PM   #61
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How could freedom loving Americans NOT be incensed by this growing trend?
Agreed. From the perspective of the homeowner, what does that no-knock raid look like? A home invasion, a kick-in robbery attempt of the type that is becoming all too common nowadays. And even identifying themselves as police while performing the no-knock raid does nothing to diffuse the situation since it has also become all to common that kick-in home invasion perps are doing the same thing: announcing themselves to be police, etc.

The police have the DUTY to give the homeowner the benefit of the doubt. The police & courts have the DUTY to diligently pre-screen these no-knock raids so as to minimize the incidence of raids on the innocent. I do believe that the police should EXPECT to find armed homeowners of the innocent variety any time they execute such a no-knock warrant, and be prepared for such, so as to minimize the chances for unwarranted loss of life.

After all -- if someone comes busting in my door, I'm drawing! I don't have the luxury of hanging around and trying to ascertain whether or not it is a bad guy or a good guy -- they are BUSTING DOWN MY DOOR! It is the cops' job to defuse the situation, not mine -- after all, they instigated the situation.
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Old August 15, 2006, 06:02 PM   #62
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Like Rich said you cant blame the officers or the guys in the field because they were doing what they were briefed to do. You can blame the policy of doing no knock raids on locations where there has been no history of criminal violence. Now if it was a known crack house with violent offenders out the wazoo who are armed a no knock raid would probably be appropriate.

What makes me mad is the fact that these folks had no history of any criminal violence. Where did the tip that these folks have drugs come from. How hard can it be to check a location and persons for a criminal history. What was going through the heads of those that are entrusted to be in charge and make sure its a good bust?

Now there is a cop who has to live with the fact he killed a wife and mother because those he trusted to lead him messed up or were too zealous. If I were a CCW holder or had a weapon at home I would be very nervous about these type of situations happening. Having a CCW may get you killed in a no knock raid if the police check.

Our rights to self defense and civil liberties are being nullified by the state with these no knock raids. In a no knock raid if the address is screwed up or its charges blown out of proportion you have the right to die. The law enforcement ageny says sorry and thats about all you get from them in some cases.

The second part of this equation needs to be accountability.
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Old August 15, 2006, 06:06 PM   #63
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The police have the DUTY to give the homeowner the benefit of the doubt. The police & courts have the DUTY to diligently pre-screen these no-knock raids so as to minimize the incidence of raids on the innocent. I do believe that the police should EXPECT to find armed homeowners of the innocent variety any time they execute such a no-knock warrant, and be prepared for such, so as to minimize the chances for unwarranted loss of life.

After all -- if someone comes busting in my door, I'm drawing! I don't have the luxury of hanging around and trying to ascertain whether or not it is a bad guy or a good guy -- they are BUSTING DOWN MY DOOR! It is the cops' job to defuse the situation, not mine -- after all, they instigated the situation.
Apparently I really suck at delivering my thoughts and opinions on this subject.

Allow me to try once again:

The police, having the inteligence (reason for the raid), decide that 4am is the correct time to execute such raid.

The police, have the intellignce, that the one to be raided is armed.

The police, having the aforementioned intelligence, decide that the public good is best served by hostile, home invasion tactics.

At 4 am, the armed homeowner is raided, and killed.

Why?

It seems to me that the police were dirrectly responsible for that death.
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Old August 15, 2006, 06:21 PM   #64
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Nope, considering that the article that started the thread states that the lawyer said the woman was pointing the gun at the floor, not at the cop.
Once again read the entire comment, not just the part that fuels your attack
Quote:
If you want split frog hairs about the definition of "pointed at" go somewhere else.
Clear enough for you?
And as long as we're playing the word twisting game, where did I say that she was intentionally pointing it at the cop?
Where did I even imply that she could not have been righteously targeting the threat behind the door, which just happened to be a cop?
Where have I made any judgment of the legality or righteousness of her actions?
Can't find that anywhere can you smart guy?

And for the record I am not so stupid as to believe that anyone would try to defend their home with a handgun by threatening to ruin the carpet
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So, Joab, since you seem to have been there when it all went down, and feel at liberty to change the story of how it proceeded, why don't you just write a letter to the DA in Baltimore and tell him that you will come in and meet with him to tell him what really happened
More TwistyBoy BS from AF. Read this again if it helps
Quote:
If you want split frog hairs about the definition of "pointed at" go somewhere else
.

Quote:
Gee, joab, you don't think that the entry and/or exit points for the first two shots might be somewhat different from that of the third shot, alleged to have been fired once she had collapsed to the floor?
And your point is?
Or did you even think that comment out enough to have a point.
Or are you saying that someone one who has dropped to the ground after being shot must also be assumed to have been killed instantly, and that if the shots were fatal there could be no involuntary muscle spasm while on the ground that would have the appearance of reaching for the gun or attempting to fire it.
Read the post again.
You can read real slow and even move your lips if you need to
Quote:
Wouldn't that depend on whether the first two shots could be determined to have been instantly fatal or at least incapacitating to the point that could be no twitching and/or involuntary muscle movement
Not one single word or implication about whether she as standing or laying down after those first two shots, now is there?

It is obvious that your only reason to post here is to attack me yet again. And yet again you resort to easily refuted juvenile attempts at word twisting.
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Old August 15, 2006, 06:34 PM   #65
rangermonroe
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I' ll defend "you"

Names don't need to be called.

Especially when we have taken a single news story, and picked it apart to molecular levels.

But, you are still wrong, joab.....
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Old August 15, 2006, 06:56 PM   #66
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Joab-
Why do you keep focusing on the 3 seconds of the confrontation, while continuing to ignore the 30 hours that led up to it; the 30 hours and MORE if they needed it! In fairness, this thread is not about those 3 seconds, but about those 30 hours:
- the 30 hours during which the State could re-check their charges, evidence and sources.

- the 30 hours during which the State could recheck the motto on their own patrol cars, had they forgotten what The State stands for.

- the 30 hours during which the State could re-evaluate the risk to its own Officers vs the benefits to its own Constituents.

- the 30 hours during which the State could choose to act as a key component of the Most Free Nation on Earth, vs a Banana Republic Death Squad.

Why do you keep doing that?
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Old August 15, 2006, 07:14 PM   #67
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joab, I have entirely too little information to render any sort of reasonable judgement about the actions of the police during the raid. However, the indisputable evidence of the results of the raid strongly suggest that there was not adequate justification for a no-knock raid in the first place.
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Old August 15, 2006, 07:25 PM   #68
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Why do you keep doing that?
If you read my posts from the beginning you will see that I am not focusing on any time frame.
My contention has been that an article that gives only the family and trial lawyer's account of the incident is enough evidence for some to start with the cop bashing that seems so prevalent on these boards.
When that same level of "evidence" against an arrested gun owner would be dismissed as propaganda

My reference to those three seconds in my last two or three posts was a direct response to AzureFly's attempt to paint me as a hypocrite.

You will also see that I have made no judgment either way on this case, although some here ,predictably, paint me as a sheep for the state because I refuse to rush judgment and condemnation of people who happen to be cops based on a one sided article.

Perhaps coincidently but every post prior to my first was simple cop bashing and nothing more.
The post immediately after mine was a call for more info before judgment.

I have no opinion on this particular raid because there is no reporting on the issues that led the police to conduct the raid in this fashion.
And I have no training or insight on what exactly goes on in the planning of these raids, this one in particular.

I do have an opinion on how these cop bashing threads reflect on us as a community or group
Of the last three people I have directed to this site, and one other, two have come back and said that we seem like a bunch of anarchists and their opinion of "gun nuts" was only strengthened by the encounter.
The other just laughed it off and called us the anti Brady Bunch, implying that, in his opinion we were as nutty and zealous as they are and hs wife called us scary.

.
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Old August 15, 2006, 07:31 PM   #69
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the indisputable evidence of the results of the raid strongly suggest that there was not adequate justification for a no-knock raid in the first place.
Perhaps so but is there indisputable evidence that..
Quote:
Its ok, the cops were able to go home at the end of their shift
.
Quote:
Don't worry, a small baggie of drugs will be found - curiously enough the correct size to fit into a tactical cargo pocket - and that will justify the whole thing!
Quote:
cops are out there digging in people's trash to find "trace" amounts of dope.
Quote:
$100 says that no one hangs for this like they should.
And my favorite bit of vitriol, cheered on by you by the way
Quote:
the murder could have been stopped by having arrested all the cops before the incident happened, or by throwing a flashbang into their "planning room" session, then shooting each of them three times, just to make sure that they didn't go forward with their murder".
And one from you
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im sure later after they tear apart the house that an arsenal will be found, a kilo of coke with their names clearly written on the bag and a an entire meth cooking lab discoverd in the cellar.
I'll admit that this site steered the thread in a more constructive way than the other did, for the most part, but is all that really necessary?
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Old August 15, 2006, 07:48 PM   #70
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You will also see that I have made no judgment either way on this case
Joab-
I am about sooooo done here.

- You can't make a judgment about the 4 AM STORMING of a US CITIZEN RESIDENCE that the EVIDENCE SHOWS was not engaged in drug trafficking?

- You can't make judgment regarding the RESPONSIBILITY of AMERICAN CITIZENS to protect their families against home invasions in the dark of night?

- You can't understand what all the hubub is when a MOTHER is gunned down for pointing a LEGAL FIREARM at/toward/near/around a [might have claimed-to-be] INVADING STATE AGENT IN HER BEDROOM AT 4 IN THE MORNING?

- You can't make a judgment as to how many Noel Family Terrors go unreported by the press....because they don't result in shots fired; just families terrorized? Is it 10:1 Noel? 50:1 Noel? 100:1 Noel? If you can't venture a "judgment", would you AT LEAST venture a GUESS?!!!!

- You need a Judge to tell you how you should think on these issues?....they are each FACT or ramification of the FACT.

Well, then....I suggest you should relinquish your right to VOTE....until, of course, you have "all the facts" before Election Day.
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Old August 15, 2006, 07:54 PM   #71
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the blood is boiling now

Quote:
According to the suit, officers had found “trace amounts of drugs” in trash cans outside of the home.
Do you know how many times I've picked up trash from my front yard, my next door neighbors' yards, and the street in front of my house, and placed it in my trash can? And since there was a crack house on my street 3 houses down a few years ago, do you know how incredibly easy it would be for 'trace amounts' of drugs to be found on some trash I grabbed off my lawn?

I know what would happen if I was king for a day. The police chief AND the magistrate who authorized this would be publicly hanged, and I'm not kidding. We have GOT to start holding the government accountable for their wrongful deaths, in a big way.

If there's any justice, the Baltimore cops will be bankrupt and the lady's family very very rich when this is all over.
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Old August 15, 2006, 07:59 PM   #72
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joab, you decry cop bashing - so do I. But do you not see any teeny, tiny hint of a problem with the system that allowed this raid to occur?
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Old August 15, 2006, 08:01 PM   #73
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If there's any justice, the Baltimore cops will be bankrupt and the lady's family very very rich when this is all over.
Unfortunately, there's this thing called the "thin blue wall"..

Look at the guy who shot the drunk off duty cop with a history of DUIs when his wife was being attacked by him. The police *in his area* (Not an indictment of all good officers* are doing everything in their power to get him put away on murder charges.

We should all know our place and not mess with the superior class, donchaknow. They're the only ones professional enough to _____ .
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Old August 15, 2006, 08:01 PM   #74
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You can't make a judgment about the 4 AM STORMING of a US CITIZEN RESIDENCE that the EVIDENCE SHOWS was not engaged in drug trafficking?
No Rich, lack of evidence is not positive evidence to the contrary
Quote:
You can't make judgment regarding the RESPONSIBILITY of AMERICAN CITIZEN'S to protect their families against home invasions in the dark of night?
Where have I said that I can't make that judgment
Where has that been factually established as the motive for the woman arming herself?

Quote:
You can't understand what all the hubbub is when a MOTHER is gunned down for pointing a LEGAL FIREARM at/toward/near/around a [perhaps unknown] INVADING STATE AGENT?
Where have I said that?
I have stated my position on what you call "hubbub"? My stated position is simply against the unwarranted attack on the police noting more.
Quote:
Perhaps I should have said that have not presented my opinion or judgment instead that I have made no judgment, there may have been less room for twisting
Well, then....I suggest you should relinquish your right to VOTE....until, of course, you have "all the facts"
Well, I try to arm myself with at least some of the facts before I vote. Don't you?
I certainly don't make my choice simply based on an article presenting the opinion of the opposing party
Right back attcha
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Old August 15, 2006, 08:07 PM   #75
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joab, you decry cop bashing - so do I.
But you do it so well, want to see it again.
Quote:
But do you not see any teeny, tiny hint of a problem with the system that allowed this raid to occur?
I have not addressed that issue, and so far the only evidence that it was a bad raid is the statements of the family and trial lawyer.
Don't you see any teeny tiny hint of what I am saying here
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