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Old August 9, 2006, 08:54 AM   #26
Duxman
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Good experience at NRA CCW class

I would just like to point out - that not all instructional classes at the NRA are bad. I took my CCW course at the NRA over 2 years ago, and we had quality instructors.

There was a former FBI agent who covered the legal ground for us. And from reading what I know now, she gave us very good advice as to how to handle being approached by a LEO on a traffic stop while CC a weapon. And how to handle a shooting. (If you ever got involved in one.)

The main instructor was a good one. He taught us safety basics, everyone had their unloaded guns facing the wall. Away from each other. I was very happy with the safety demonstrated in the class.

There was a holster specialist who gave us terrific advice on which type of holsters to use while using CC. That was excellent information and I still remember a lot of it today.

Then the instructor who did my range time was a 30 year veteran and had me tighten up my groupings to 1.5 inches in under an hour.

I was very happy with the money I spent at the class.

Sorry that you did not have the same experience.
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Old August 9, 2006, 09:36 AM   #27
rick_reno
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Probably the content/approach in the class was related more to the instructor than the NRA. Did you challenge him on any of these points? or sit there like a bump on a log getting angry? I know if he'd pointed that gun directly at me while showing it to a classmate, I would have reached up and moved it. No one points a gun at me without a reaction of some kind.
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Old August 9, 2006, 11:22 AM   #28
oldbillthundercheif
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This Is Awful

When I got my certification it involved an intensive 4-day course with a LOT of required reading and a fairly hard test at the end (including a simulated 1 on 1 range session with a ruthless instructor from the Army Marksmanship Unit standing in as the "student").
Oh, and you had to be Expert qualified with the specified class of firearm to even sign up for each sub-section of the class (thusly, I am only certified as an instructor for smallbore rifle, high-power rifle, service rifle, and smallbore "bullseye" pistol)

My certificate says NRA on it, so I guess this is the standard course for NRA instructors?

The ? means I don't know. That guy I did my test with from the AMU would have probably physically stomped upon these geeks you guys are talking about. Hearing about this stuff is making me want to use that certificate for target-practice.

Sure, the NRA isn't perfect, but it's all we have for throwing around serious political leverage so it's in all of our best interests to get behind it.
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Old August 9, 2006, 11:40 AM   #29
v8fbird
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"How about requiring the instructor to hand out evaluation sheets at the end of his course that are mailed directly to the NRA?"



HA. They actually handed out review sheets after we took our range time and then you HANDED them back to them and they READ them as they put them on the pile with the others. I would imagine everyone had nothing but good things to say about the course.
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Old August 9, 2006, 12:02 PM   #30
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I was lucky as the course I was taking was a class from a local technical institute and was part of the scheduled cirriculum, passing included passing the written exam and the hands on firearms qualification. Imagine a college level course where you spend the class on the pistol range. suwheeeet

The instructors were law enforcement officers and marksmanship instructors for the local sherriff's department. They were no nonsense kinda guys when it came to safety and following instructions. The good part of the class was you got the benefit of thier experience and knowledge in the laws for use of force including deadly force. They were able to make clear the written law and the practical application of it out on the street.
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Old August 9, 2006, 12:32 PM   #31
Boondoggie
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This is a very interesting thread, but I must reserver judgment.

Firstly there is always two sides to every story, we have been told one.

Secondly

Quote:
v8fbird - I'd end up dumping $100 and not coming out with my certificate.
Why? Did you fail to archive an 80% pass in the written portion? or did you fail to qualify in the practical portion? This would be the only two reasons I am aware of that would restrict you from receiving your certificate.

Speaking as a qualified NRA instructor myself, I can say that there are good instructors and bad ones. The NRA provides a criteria / outline for what some states calls out as a minimum requirement to apply for your CHL. NRA instructors are required to follow these guild lines. But that's not to say that their own personal experiences/preference doesn't some time get integrated. Unfortunately you would be hard push to find an independent CHL class (TDI in Ohio for example) that won't cost you 3, 4 even 5 times that amount that would qualify you for a CHL. I am not saying you get what you pay for, but be realistic, the NRA tries to provide as many people the opportunity to obtain their CHL without having to go through a lot of hoops or expense. That's not to say that anyone should be subjected to danger or any other irresponsible actions.

You stated that the NRA is Pro-Gun control and that's why you will never join, but will not elaborate on this in the thread.

OK, I will respect that. But without the NRA, do you really think you/me/any of us could enjoy such freedom? maybe, maybe not. Personal I don't want to find out.

I am sorry to hear about your experience with this particular group, and as some have already suggested, if you feel you have a legitimate claim regarding any wrong doing on the part of the instructor. You should report it to the NRA with all relevant details. NRA doesn't want anyone discrediting or misrepresenting them and I am sure would appreciate your comments.
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Old August 9, 2006, 02:20 PM   #32
skipjack
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Without the NRA, Gore would have probably carried WV, and we would likely be in "President" Gore's second term.

The NRA, as any organization or individual is not perfect. But, they do an awful lot of good holding politicians' feet to the fire on 2nd amendment issues.
They also provide a number of educational and instructive programs that have helped countless students over the years.

In my opinion, before condemning the NRA, you should contact them to address your concerns. If they are not receptive, then you have a legitimate beef with them. So far, all I see is your allegation that you received instruction from some sub-par instructors; something that NRA would probably like to know.
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Old August 9, 2006, 03:03 PM   #33
v8fbird
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"Without the NRA, Gore would have probably carried WV, and we would likely be in "President" Gore's second term."

I have to say, I don't really feel BLESSED that it didn't happen...

"The NRA, as any organization or individual is not perfect."

There are alot of MORE perfect organizations than the NRA, such as GOA and JPFO, in that order. If I'm going to give money, I'm going to give it to them. They may not have the political clout, or the huge membership, or the funds that the NRA does, but I have yet to see something from either organization that I disagree with.
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Old August 9, 2006, 04:04 PM   #34
oldbillthundercheif
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Thanks for naming those two organizations, they seem to be fighting the good fight. Unfortunately I had never heard of either of them until your post, and that is exactly the problem with them.

You said it yourself... they don't have the massive membership or political clout that the NRA has. Don't worry about giving money to the NRA, they have plenty already and the piddly $25 you would give for a membership makes no difference to the leviathan.

Every membership counts, though. This is a numbers game we are playing and an NRA membership makes it clear which side you are on. If you are a member of the GOA and JPFO you might as well get a membership in the only organization that politicians listen to. Who would that be?

Oh, yeah... the NRA!
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Old August 9, 2006, 05:18 PM   #35
CobrayCommando
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The NRA's stance on fully automatic firearms, at least the stance they have taken in public, is confusing to me.
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Old August 9, 2006, 05:25 PM   #36
smince
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Quote:
If you're willing to spend the money to take the instructor's course, they'll certify you forever, no checks, no renewals, no requirements
Funny, I had to renew mine every 3 years.
Quote:
Firstly there is always two sides to every story, we have been told one
Similiar to my sig line:
Quote:
There are (at least) two sides to every story, and the truth is always somewhere in the middle
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Old August 9, 2006, 07:23 PM   #37
Boondoggie
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smince - It just goes to show that great minds think alike.

v8fbird - you still haven't answered the question.

Quote:
v8fbird - I'd end up dumping $100 and not coming out with my certificate.
Quote:
Why? Did you fail to archive an 80% pass in the written portion? or did you fail to qualify in the practical portion? This would be the only two reasons I am aware of that would restrict you from receiving your certificate.
Maybe the missing portion to the rest of this story.
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Old August 9, 2006, 07:56 PM   #38
skipjack
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"Without the NRA, Gore would have probably carried WV, and we would likely be in "President" Gore's second term."

I have to say, I don't really feel BLESSED that it didn't happen"

So...the NRA is too much in favor of gun control, but Al Gore isn't? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.


"There are alot of MORE perfect organizations than the NRA"

Actually, there is no degree of perfection; perfection is an absolute.

I think, for whatever reason, you just have an ax to grind with the NRA.
That is your prerogative, but it sounds illogical. I am and have been a member for more years than I care to remember. I don't always agree with
them on every issue...I don't agree with anyone on every issue.

Be glad you have the opportunity to enjoy exercising your right to carry.
I live in Maryland, and carry permits are doled out to only the privileged or well connected.
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Old August 9, 2006, 11:53 PM   #39
RandyDTC
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AAShooter:
There have been 6 "personal protection outside the home" classes held at NRA HQ to date. They are thinking about holding a 7th. The lesson plan will be released as soon as all revisions are complete. Once the lesson plan has been released, the people who have attended the training classes at HQ will start teaching it.

v8fbird:
Document your experience with the NRA instructors and call the training department. I am quite sure they will find out what happened.

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Old August 10, 2006, 02:47 AM   #40
Bud Helms
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Quote:
I agree that you can't hold an organization responsible for what their instructors say.
I disagree. The NRA can and should most certainly be held responsible for what their instructors say, while instructing an NRA-approved course. Now, what may have happened is a local course was offered and the status of the instructors being NRA-certified was touted in advertising for the class. That doesn't mean the class was an approved curriculum by the NRA. I don't have a crystal ball, 'just a thought on how this could happen.

The most amazing thing I read in this thread so far is:
Quote:
Thanks for naming those two organizations, they seem to be fighting the good fight. Unfortunately I had never heard of either of them until your post, and that is exactly the problem with them.
This was in reference to GOA and JPFO. I am speechless at this. The only two nationwide alternatives to the NRA.
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Old August 10, 2006, 08:01 AM   #41
WoodsWally
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The NRA can and should most certainly be held responsible for what their instructors say, while instructing an NRA-approved course. Now, what may have happened is a local course was offered and the status of the instructors being NRA-certified was touted in advertising for the class. That doesn't mean the class was an approved curriculum by the NRA. I don't have a crystal ball, 'just a thought on how this could happen.

You are definitely correct about the first part... and may be right about the second. Except that I did get my certificate and it says: The National Rifle Association of America - awards this certificate to (my name LOL) as evidence of having attended an NRA Personal Protection Course... it bears the seal of the NRA and signature of the secretary (at the time the certificate was printed, anyway).

I'd say that makes them a bit responsible for my experience: an NRA certified instructor teaching an NRA course.

Unless, of course, it's Al Gore's fault.

I do not have an axe to grind with the NRA... but I do think any organization needs to decide what business they are in and do it well. I make no statements about what the NRA accomplishes (or doesn't) politically, but I do say that if they are going to certify instructors and courses, they accept the obligation to provide at least a modicum of quality control. A failure to do that weakens the credibility of the organization in general.

What would this thread look like if the NRA manufactured or sold guns that didn't work?
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Old August 10, 2006, 10:53 AM   #42
oldbillthundercheif
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Yeah, I had heard of the GOA before. I was just trying to make a point. Sorry for removing your speech, Bud.

I would hate to be speechless, I run my mouth all the time
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Old August 10, 2006, 11:04 AM   #43
skipjack
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Maybe you fellows should have taken GOA's instructional course.
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Old August 10, 2006, 11:21 AM   #44
v8fbird
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Boondoggie,

v8fbird - you still haven't answered the question.
Quote:
v8fbird - I'd end up dumping $100 and not coming out with my certificate.
Quote:
Why? Did you fail to archive an 80% pass in the written portion? or did you fail to qualify in the practical portion? This would be the only two reasons I am aware of that would restrict you from receiving your certificate.
Maybe the missing portion to the rest of this story.


No, I didn’t fail. There were no tests; you can’t fail. UNLESS, I would imagine, you **** off the instructors. That’s why I didn’t try that.

skipjack,


So...the NRA is too much in favor of gun control, but Al Gore isn't? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

I said that I can’t imagine things being any worse than under Bush. That does not mean I support Al Gore. Neither does the fact that I don’t like the NRA mean that I like Al Gore. Try thinking a LITTLE outside the box for a minute, the box being your misconception that people necessarily are Republicans or Democrats. I am a Libertarian. I don’t like Bush; I don’t like Gore; I don’t like the NRA. That is far from talking out of both sides of my mouth.

I think, for whatever reason, you just have an ax to grind with the NRA.
That is your prerogative, but it sounds illogical. I am and have been a member for more years than I care to remember. I don't always agree with
them on every issue...I don't agree with anyone on every issue.


Which of my original 9 points did you have a problem with? Why do legitimate problems demonstrate that I have an “axe to grind”? Simply, I DISAGREE with the NRA enough that I won’t be a member. I fail to see how that demonstrates a problem in my logic.

It would appear that YOU have an axe to grind with ME for not supporting the NRA.

And one suggestion...stop being HOSTILE to people and they'll be much more likely to respond to you.

Bud Helms,

What I meant is that you can’t pass judgement against an organization because of something one of its employees taught me to do. But you’re right, NRA is responsible for the course, especially since it wasn’t just NRA-approved, it was an NRA course, with NRA instructors held at the NRA headquarters.


skipjack,

I am a little confused...woodswally and v8, are you the same person?

?????????????
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Old August 10, 2006, 11:25 AM   #45
v8fbird
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"Maybe you fellows should have taken GOA's instructional course."

So far as I know, GOA does not offer any instructional courses. If they do, I'd be thrilled to know about them and I wonder why I've never heard about them from Larry.

GOA will send you to Front Sight in Nevada, though, for a Life Membership donation.
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Old August 10, 2006, 11:44 AM   #46
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#9 Reasoning

Actually #9 is exactly the way you should do it unless you're going to put in a lot of practice hitting the slide release. If you're ever in a stressful situation you lose your "fine motor skills" (hitting that little slide release with your thumb) and are left with only "gross motor skills" (racking the slide with your hand/fist). Watch any IDPA or IPSC match with newer shooters and see how much trouble they have with a reload if they're trying to hit the slide release, then imagine real pressure like being fired at instead of just being timed and you'll see the value of the rack the slide method.
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Old August 10, 2006, 11:46 AM   #47
Boondoggie
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Quote:
v8fbird - No, I didn’t fail. There were no tests; you can’t fail. UNLESS, I would imagine, you **** off the instructors. That’s why I didn’t try that.
I am sorry, I must have miss-understood you.

Quote:
v8fbird - I'd end up dumping $100 and not coming out with my certificate.
Would you care to elaborate? or is this something else you would rather not discuss here on the thread?

There most certainly is a test, and yes you CAN fail. The written portion requires an 80% or higher as a passing grade. There is also the practical portion, both of which MUST be met in order to receive your certificate.

P%^& off the instructors has got nothing to do with passing or a failing, being unsafe or otherwise irresponsible will get you thrown out of a class every time.

Personal feelings about the NRA or any other orginazation aside for the time being, what DID really happen in the class that promted you to post this thread?
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Old August 10, 2006, 12:04 PM   #48
RandyDTC
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Quote:
There most certainly is a test, and yes you CAN fail. The written portion requires an 80% or higher as a passing grade. There is also the practical portion, both of which MUST be met in order to receive your certificate.
I am not certain which course he attended, however, that really doesn't matter.

There is no test for the NRA's (3.5 hour +) FIRST Steps Pistol class.

There is a written test at the end of the NRA's (10 hour) Basic Pistol course, but there is no pass/fail condition associated with it. It is nothing more than a tool for the instructors (and students) to determine how much learning took place.

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Old August 10, 2006, 12:05 PM   #49
v8fbird
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"There most certainly is a test, and yes you CAN fail. The written portion requires an 80% or higher as a passing grade. There is also the practical portion, both of which MUST be met in order to receive your certificate.

P%^& off the instructors has got nothing to do with passing or a failing, being unsafe or otherwise irresponsible will get you thrown out of a class every time."



Where do you live? Are you assuming that every state has the same requirements for CCW? Again, THERE WAS NO WRITTEN TEST. THERE WAS NO PRACTICAL TEST.

We sat in a classroom and listened. Then we went to the range and we shot. If there was a practical test I didn't hear a word about it and I must have passed it.

You honestly think that the instructors couldn't have kept me from getting my certificate? You think I should have started an argument with them in front of the class?
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Old August 10, 2006, 12:15 PM   #50
Dreadnought
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Last night I attended the Personal Protection Institute's Safe Start class, our instructor turned out to be the founder, Tom Crawford. He was very articulate in his explanations and had a broad knowledge of other states' policies. If you have the opportunity to come to Richmond (Ashland, actually) I highly recommend PPI for your CHL class. I met another of his instructors there, and it seems they are all very well trained and professional.
He only mentioned his recommendation against open carry near the end of his lecture because of the two main disadvantages 1) you look like you are trying to kick up some **** and 2) you lose the tactical advantage of an attacker knowing you are armed. He never said "Don't do it," just that he recommended against it.
I was hypersensitive to the shortcomings v8fbird mentioned about his class and noticed none of them in mine.
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