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Old August 7, 2006, 11:16 AM   #1
Epyon
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In reaction to Got Lead's thread on BB guns being drawn...

Got Lead started this thread: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176810

Which got me thinking about something. Now a more difficult question I must ask, if you DON'T KNOW whether that is a BB gun/airsoft gun or not, what would you do if say some kid drew on you? Take age into consideration please, suppose the scenarios were an elementary school student, a middle school student, and a high school student what would you do in each of those cases? Treat each scenario as if there were no way out/extremely difficult to back out, I know this is going to be diffcult but I'd rather address this to get an idea and hope to get some insight from this and yes it is a tough call, but I'd rather talk it out now than deliberate if such a freak scenario were to happen to me or anyone else out there. If anyone in LE could also comment and give some advice that would be much appreciated as well, especially if you've had experience in such situations.


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Old August 7, 2006, 11:25 AM   #2
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While I'm not a street cop I'd say my mind would register weapon first and I would act on that. Perhaps moving on the draw would give me time to recognize the weapon for what it is, then maybe not. I would not expect anyone to go beyond a pattern recognition. In my job, if an inmate I'm handeling pulls a toothbrush out of his pocket he's going down. I will not take the time to see if that toothbrush has a razor blade imbedded in it or if it's sharpened.
That being said, investigators and people on juries see the incident in hindsight. I would expect them to say you should have taken the time to better decern the threat. Of course taking that time might get you killed.
I'm sure in my senario I would be disiplined because the talking heads can only see hindsight.
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Old August 7, 2006, 12:56 PM   #3
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This happens on a semi-regular basis actually.

The first thing people must understand is that the teenager can pull that trigger and kill you just as easily as the 40 year old perolee. Younger than early teens...probably will buy you a bit more time to react.

Having said that, you should immediately try to get cover while giving short, direct, and loud commands. IE: "I see the gun in your hand! DROP IT NOW!"; "Do NOT point that weapon in my direction! If you do, you will force me to shoot you!", etc.

By doing those things you get the kids attention, everyone in the area can hear that you see the threat, are reacting to the threat, and are giving clear, loud, and concise commands to avoid injuring the person with the weapon.

Regrettably, if the threat seems to be of adult size and seems to have the drop on you with appears to be a firearm, reacting with deadly force is the normal answer. Trying to decide if that barrel of the 92F you are staring down is 6 or 9mm at 25 feet in shadows and/or low light is a good way to get yourself sent home in a box.
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Old August 7, 2006, 02:53 PM   #4
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on a slightly different issue

Here's what happened in Houston this weekend. Notice what the weapon in the story was:

http://www.click2houston.com/news/9637892/detail.html

Imagine...you're in the Waffle House and some jackass comes in and robs the place WITH A PELLET GUN They were fortunate, I guess, that no CHL was in there. Idjits. Total idjits.

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Old August 7, 2006, 09:28 PM   #5
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Scary nonetheless springmom...

Obviously if grown men were robbing others and it gave me time to prepare, I would definately take them down as quick as I can, obviously I'd have to make sure I got a clear shot as in no one in the line of fire in front of or behind my target. Regardless of whether or not it was a pellet gun, I'd probably be under too much stress to even bother identifying it as a pellet gun.


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Old August 8, 2006, 08:23 AM   #6
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http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/c...l=chi-news-hed

not necessarily 100% on-topic, but timely.
i believe the officers that the boy was pointing at them. it's unfortunate that there is such an inbred mistrust of authority that people feel compelled to lie to erode support for the officers.

i don't have an answer for a canned response. it's entirely situational. if i knew it's a pellet gun, there's no way i'm coming back at someone with a centerfire, but in the event of the unknown i don't feel this is a case where an instinctual response is the wisest.
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Old August 8, 2006, 09:57 AM   #7
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There is no yes or no answer in such decision making. Gun folks like yes or no rules but the world is more complex.

It depends on:

1. How much do you value the individual that you will shoot?
2. How much trouble will you get into if you shoot that individual?
3. How to 2 and 3 interact with your perceived risk?

Each factor will have a weight and feed into an evaluation that produces a value that will have to cross a criterion line for a specific action.

What if your teenage daughter gets mad at you and picks up your Daisy and points it at you? You are carrying your Springfield XD in 45 ACP with Federal Atomic HP 500 Gr Blastos. Do you hose her? As compared to some teenager mugger who stops you in a dark alley with a clearly identified pellet gun?

Shoot them all!!! Or what?
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Old August 8, 2006, 10:58 AM   #8
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Glenn,

Quote:
As compared to some teenager mugger who stops you in a dark alley with a clearly identified pellet gun?
Would you apply deadly force to a thug armed with a pellet gun?
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Old August 8, 2006, 12:50 PM   #9
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no, run or resist. if i shoot my odds of a life ending are very great. if he shoots and i'm moving or hitting him the odds of me taking a pellet to the temple or eye are very slim. you have a responsibility to prevent the loss of life when possible.
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Old August 8, 2006, 04:14 PM   #10
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Well, assuming it's not easily identifiable, such as if we see the kid pumping it up or loading it, I would draw and be ready to fire. Age won't be a consideration, sorry. I'm 21 and still got a lot of life left too, thanks, and I'm not an idiot delinquent who runs around drawing toy guns on people. Of course if at any point I recognize the gun as a bb gun, I'll reholster, cover my eyes and just start kicking kid butt. The odds of being seriously wounded by a pellet gun are even smaller than being seriously wounded by someone throwing rocks or sticks, and basically trivial.
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Old August 8, 2006, 06:37 PM   #11
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no, run or resist. if i shoot my odds of a life ending are very great. if he shoots and i'm moving or hitting him the odds of me taking a pellet to the temple or eye are very slim. you have a responsibility to prevent the loss of life when possible.

Once again, we are back to, "Why is it a big deal to a law-abiding citizen that the life of a criminal attacker may have to end in order to safeguard the life of the law-abiding citizen?"

Sure, I've never taken a life before, so I can't say 100% how I'd feel if I ever did. But at this moment, I don't think that I'd be likely to feel terribly bad about having to end the life of someone who threatened mine.

I don't care about the "odds" of me taking a pellet to the temple; that is not exclusively what I'm going to use to consider my course of action. I am much more concerned about the ramifications of getting hit, which could include anything from a painful, infected wound, to loss of vision or loss of life.

The "odds" of me needing the fire extinguisher in my house are not very high, but I still have it. The same goes for the odds of needing my seat belt to save me in a car crash. I wear the seat belt because of HOW BAD the results could be for me if I didn't. By your standard, one might say I had wasted the time and effort by wearing my seatbelt on every car trip since about 1983 or so, because I've never been in a crash where it saved my life or kept me from suffering a grievous injury.

Forget about odds, I want to know about potential for seriously harmful effects, even if the odds are 1 in 100,000.

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Old August 8, 2006, 06:42 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razorburn
The odds of being seriously wounded by a pellet gun are even smaller than being seriously wounded by someone throwing rocks or sticks, and basically trivial.
Trivial? You are mistaking the ODDS being "trivial" with the important fact that the POSSIBLE RAMIFICATIONS of you hitting those odds being FAR from trivial.

The odds ("likelihood") of winning Lotto are "trivial." But for the person who hits all six numbers, the situation is far from trivial.

The likelihood of being hit in the eye by the pellet may be "trivial," but if you are the guy who does get hit in the eye, you won't think the issue was so trivial then.

I would act accordingly. Many here would, also. You appear to be saying that you would not. Fine.


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Old August 8, 2006, 08:28 PM   #13
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Quote:
Sure, I've never taken a life before, so I can't say 100% how I'd feel if I ever did. But at this moment, I don't think that I'd be likely to feel terribly bad about having to end the life of someone who threatened mine.
I recommend you read "On Killing", by Col. David Grossman, Azurefly. It's a real eye-opener .
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Old August 8, 2006, 08:39 PM   #14
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Grossman is a hack in many areas, though. Take his writings with a grain of salt and an eye for sifting out chaff.
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Old August 9, 2006, 01:23 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azurefly
Trivial? You are mistaking the ODDS being "trivial" with the important fact that the POSSIBLE RAMIFICATIONS of you hitting those odds being FAR from trivial.

The odds ("likelihood") of winning Lotto are "trivial." But for the person who hits all six numbers, the situation is far from trivial.

The likelihood of being hit in the eye by the pellet may be "trivial," but if you are the guy who does get hit in the eye, you won't think the issue was so trivial then.

I would act accordingly. Many here would, also. You appear to be saying that you would not. Fine.


-azurefly
Yeah? Well there are many hundreds of billions of things that while possible, the trivial odds of them occuring are simply are not worth considering due to the steps needed to avoid them. It's a risk to reward ratio. You could also lose your eyeball standing at a sidewalk when a pebble gets kicked up by a rock. But I'm not going to don full face protection to go for a walk with my dog. More people die each year choking on a burger, struck by a freak lightning storms, hell people die from spontaneous human combustion.

"THE POSSIBLE RAMIFICATIONS OF HITTING THOSE ODDS ARE FAR FROM TRIVIAL!" right?

So by your foolhardy logic, we should all liquefy our food in a blender before consumption, drape ourselves with rubber whenever we head out, and invoke voodoo witchcraft to protect ourselves from these threats respectively.

Cover your eyes with your arms when a kid is shooting his toy gun at you, and you'll already have "acted accordingly" by rendering his weapon incapable of giving you more than a small welt. You can then strip him of his bb gun or turn and leave the situation. Drawing and firing on the kid is an obscenely excessive use of force.


This is as clear to me as it is to any court of law. Someone who chooses a course of action as grave as the slaying of another, in a situation like this where they are not even presented with a high likelihood of injury- much less death, is abhorrent and only looking to satisfy their personal bloodlust and desire to kill. When you yourself acknowledge that the odds of receiving serious injury from a bb gun attack is miniscule, but use the statement "but even though they're tiny, the odds were still there" is obviously and plainly an extremely, extremely poor and terrible defense for killing, and any court or remotely rational person is going to agree.

Do you seriously think that telling a court or any rational people that though you were extremely, extremely unlikely to suffer even a real injury, you are justified in shooting a kid because there was still a tiny chance he could hurt you is going to justify homicide??
I would not draw on a kid with a bb gun, but I would have no qualms drawing on a fellow CCW who points his weapon at a kid with a BB gun.
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Old August 9, 2006, 02:04 AM   #16
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I have decided for myself that discussing this further with you is quite pointless. You won't acknowledge a variety of facts, not least of which are that one does not have to prove that grievous bodily harm was likely, only that you were threatened with it. You also won't acknowledge that not every airgun is weak and impotently powered like a Marksman spring-loaded "1911" -- or that people HAVE DIED or BEEN BLINDED by BBgun wounds.

Arguing this with you is pointless.
Do what you want.


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Old August 9, 2006, 05:49 AM   #17
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You retract only because your poor argument fell apart under scrutiny and you don't wish to further embarass yourself. Should I point out the part where you yourself admitted that death/serious injury by bb gun is unlikely?

Quote:
Originally Posted by azurefly
The likelihood of being hit in the eye by the pellet may be "trivial," but if you are the guy who does get hit in the eye, you won't think the issue was so trivial then.
Or should I further expose your weak logic?

Here you compare buckling seat belts and having fire extinguishers to drawing against a bb-gun wielding child, where you again admit you acknowledge the odds are unlikely but say you do it just in case?

Quote:
Originally Posted by azurefly
The "odds" of me needing the fire extinguisher in my house are not very high, but I still have it. The same goes for the odds of needing my seat belt to save me in a car crash. I wear the seat belt because of HOW BAD the results could be for me if I didn't. By your standard, one might say I had wasted the time and effort by wearing my seatbelt on every car trip since about 1983 or so, because I've never been in a crash where it saved my life or kept me from suffering a grievous injury.
This is one of the most foolish and faulty comparisons I have ever read. Does it not cross your feeble mind that the only price you must pay for playing "just in case" in a seat belt/fire extinguisher situation even though you're against the odds for buckling your seat belt or having a fire extinguisher is merely a brief moment of time and effort, and whereas the price paid for "just in case" in this situation is taking a human life?!

You honestly don't see how something like that is different?! You don't see how taking 20 seconds of your time to buckle up for "just in case" and flat out killing somebody for "just in case" is different??!! If you cannot grasp such a simple concept you are clearly completely unfit for CCW and society.


And here you say

Quote:
Originally Posted by azurefly
You also won't acknowledge that not every airgun is weak and impotently powered like a Marksman spring-loaded "1911" -- or that people HAVE DIED or BEEN BLINDED by BBgun wounds
Yes, of course I acknowledged that. In fact, in the other thread I calculated out energy figures and showed that the most powerful conventional high dollar pellet guns are still not even 10% the power of a .22short and extremely unlikely to cause serious injury with your face shielded. BB guns are even weaker being unable to create a good seal between rifling and projectile. It justifies nothing. As quoted in the other thread, the figures from 1990-2000 were 4 or 5 deaths annually mostly to kids under 15. Did you acknowledge that many more people HAVE DIED or BEEN BLINDED by freak lightning and solid foods? Should we drape ourselves in rubber and liquify all our foods in order to be safe?

Please, as a teen I was once an extremely frequent airgun forum poster as well, since the days of airgunletter. I know there are some powerful PCP airguns coming up on .45 acp power, but they are very large, extremely rare, highly expensive, semi-custom big bore single shot rifles and look remotely like anything we'd id as the typical toy bb gun.

Almost every statement you've made so far has been near absurd. It's been almost a constant showcase of your logical fallacies. If you want to try to give a flippant response out to save grace, or for me to continue your intellectual skewering, then that's fine too.
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Old August 9, 2006, 12:50 PM   #18
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Folks, this thread is quickly heading down the same road as the original BB thread I had to close.

Please.... step back, and count to ten before you post.
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Old August 9, 2006, 01:52 PM   #19
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Wise words, Capt. Charlie.

Look, I don't recall having out-and-out thrown insults in this thread. I'm assailing what I see as faulty logic, not personalities or intelligence.

And, actually, I'm not getting into it again with razorburn. The trouble and acrimony make it not worthwhile.

I'm still trying to imagine, though, how anyone could take what I've said on this subject and then regurgitate it in such a flawed manner. I did not describe a 9-year-old boy aiming a weak Marksman bb pistol. I thought the issue we were discussing ran more toward a hostile actor using a gun that may or may not be a bb gun. And yes, I acknowledge that even if I knew it to be a bb gun, I may well consider drawing on the assailant because this situation is about more than the chance of a RANDOM shot from a bb gun blinding me, it's about the potential for an AIMED shot by a HOSTILE person coming in the direction of my face and eyes. The fact that the shot may be aimed to cause damage ups the "odds" of harm being done.

But, whatever.

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Old August 9, 2006, 03:46 PM   #20
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I haven't read this whole thread but in Penn. where I live, a weapon can be used if ur in fear of ur own life or someone elses. My dad (ex state trooper) and i had this conversation. If the weapon at hand is a BB or airsoft gun and u don't know, ur legally allowed to protect yourself. If you just drawn and fire (not implying that anyone would ever do that) and it turns out to be a BB gun your legally ok, but ur going to feel like crap. He said to tell them that you have a weapon and draw it on them INDEX YOUR FINGER. More then likely they will listen unless that have a problem like drugs or drunk.
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Old August 9, 2006, 03:58 PM   #21
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??

What do you mean by "draw it on them INDEX YOUR FINGER" ?
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Old August 9, 2006, 04:09 PM   #22
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LOL...Are you saying point a gun at them and flip them off?
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Old August 9, 2006, 04:55 PM   #23
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This may apply, I found through some research I did awhile back that in alot of OISs(officer involved shootings), suspects end up being shot in the hands. This comes from the fact that officers are so focused on the weapon more so than the person that they end up firing at the weapon and not the person. This may affect how they percieve the individual holding the weapon. Personally Age would play a factor, but only a small one, if its obviously a young child (under 12) I would probably not perceive them as a threat, but from 13 to 18 its very hard to tell and teens these days can be the most dangerous people alive. It would all depend on the circumstances.
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Old August 9, 2006, 06:48 PM   #24
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Quote:
but from 13 to 18 its very hard to tell and teens these days can be the most dangerous people alive. It would all depend on the circumstances.

Very true, and a large part of the reason I would be on high alert to the threat.

I'm not willing to be dismissive just because someone appears to be young. Kid down here was 13 years old when he shot his English teacher in the face, right there in the classroom, and killed him. (Nathaniel Brazill -- shot Barry Grunow, several years ago here in Florida)

I'm also not willing to be dismissive of the threat that a bb gun (or anything else that can fire a projectile) poses to my safety and vision. I already mentioned that I'm a private pilot and a skydiver, and on occasion a shooter. I need my vision intact for all those things, and my life would change drastically if something damaged it.

I think it's juvenile to go all hyperbolic on this subject and talk about death by solid food, lightning, and spontaneous human combustion. Those are things you can't really affect: you have to eat, lightning strikes randomly... A kid or an adult pointing a gun of any type at me is going to receive a gun-type response. No, I'm not going to go outdoors in a rubber suit and a helmet just because a car could kick up a rock, but that's FAR from the potential I face to be harmed by someone who is engaged in deliberate actions.


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Old August 9, 2006, 07:33 PM   #25
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Wise words, Capt. Charlie.

Look, I don't recall having out-and-out thrown insults in this thread. I'm assailing what I see as faulty logic, not personalities or intelligence.

And, actually, I'm not getting into it again with razorburn. The trouble and acrimony make it not worthwhile.

Quote:
I'm still trying to imagine, though, how anyone could take what I've said on this subject and then regurgitate it in such a flawed manner.
They were exact quotes.

Quote:
I did not describe a 9-year-old boy aiming a weak Marksman bb pistol. I thought the issue we were discussing ran more toward a hostile actor using a gun that may or may not be a bb gun.
Don't try to change the subject. You picked out the part of my original statement about how I'm against drawing if I knew it was a bb gun. This is an attempt at a concession and relating to a completely different situation when I have overwhelmingly showed you you were wrong. You started this, I'm finishing it. The situation of being unsure which type the gun is, is not what we were just discussing. You were talking about someone you knew was holding a bb gun. I could find a dozen more of your quotes to support this. In fact, you reassert this on the next statement.

Quote:
And yes, I acknowledge that even if I knew it to be a bb gun, I may well consider drawing on the assailant because this situation is about more than the chance of a RANDOM shot from a bb gun blinding me, it's about the potential for an AIMED shot by a HOSTILE person coming in the direction of my face and eyes. The fact that the shot may be aimed to cause damage ups the "odds" of harm being done.
Again, you choose to ignore that you don't have to stand there. COVER YOUR EYES AND FACE and the risk of an eyeball shot drops down to ZERO This is clearly a logical and obvious solution. Or even simpler, turn around so he can't hit your eyeballs and just then leave. Then even his DELIBERATE actions don't put you in any great danger.

Quote:
I think it's juvenile to go all hyperbolic on this subject and talk about death by solid food, lightning, and spontaneous human combustion.Those are things you can't really affect: you have to eat, lightning strikes randomly...
The food analogy is spot on. You have to eat, but don't have to eat solid foods. By liquifying them in a blender you reduce that already minute chance that you'll choke on the solid food.

I am not at all dismissive because of the shooters age, and as I said in my first statement, I'd definately draw if the gun in question was not identifiable as a bb gun.

But we've established several times the obvious fact that the risk of death or serious injury from a BB is extremely small. I can quote you several times on that. You keep going back to circular logic "But the risk is still there, even though its small" "Even though the risk is small, we still buckle up, etc.."
Yes, we buckle up just in case because all it takes to get that little bit of precaution is a pittance of effort and time. This isn't some little movement, it's killing somebody. If you had to kill someone each time for you to buckle up, its obviously wrong and nobody would do it. If I can destroy your arguments for shooting someone you knew was armed with a bb gun this completely, how do you think a professional prosecutor will do?

Just to reiterate, if not sure what the weapon is and you're threatened, yes, draw and shoot. If you know it's a bb gun, its appalling to shoot.
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