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Old August 8, 2006, 12:03 PM   #26
FlatSquirrel
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Samurai, my apologies if you feel that I flamed you. Perhaps I was a bit pointed. Flaming was not my intent, but it apparently was the result to you. Usually, my intent is more transparent.

It was my impression that LSU12ga was looking for a viable self defense device, and sprays had been recommended. In that vein, I explained personal experience that seems germaine to product selection, albeit a bit long winded. Off topic? You're reaching a long way there. I clearly hit a nerve, and I apologize.

Bad advice about police never being interested in sprays? Perhaps I was wrong in questioning this, and I should have remained silent. Again, please forgive me. I am not the world's protector from bad advice, and your comment should have been allowed to stand as written. Mea culpa.

On the commentary about the power of OC, I gave you credit for being amusing, and didn't comment about the rib thing beyond that. Clearly you are striking out because I have hurt your feelings, and I apologize for that. I was clearly wrong to have questioned the veracity of your recommendation.

As to what you so amusingly refer to as "fer'ners", I am again found in want. I would never have have thought to infer that persons alternatively nationalized would be inferior in any way. Truly, I assumed that someone named Samurai and professing knowlege of the finer arts of mayhem just might be Japanese or Korean, and far be it for me to denigrate their heritage. Imagine my embarrassment! You're a gringo! How could I be so wrong? So sorry, and SO politically incorrect, to boot.

On a more serious note, you DID give me pause to think. You know, I really DON'T care, and this came as a surprise to me. I wanted to learn new techniques and information, and while there has been new and useful information here, the nuggets are rather rare. The rest, like my commentary, are simply opinion. Some have a real basis, and some are unsupported. I don't care enough to sort it out, and this revelation tells me it is time to leave the forum venue on the internet. I leave it to the true warrior samurais of nonfer'in origin. (trying to play a race card......honestly, SammyRye boy, what were you thinking?)

LSU12ga, I honestly apologize for wasting your time in this off topic post. My suggestion in the previous post was honest and intended to be helpful to you, based on personal experience. Good luck to you.

FS
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Old August 8, 2006, 12:08 PM   #27
Limeyfellow
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In North Carolina and many states they are illegal for non law enforcement to have in their procession and they are considered deadly concealed weapons. Been a few people shot for carrying them by some of the more hick sherriff departments around here. Of course they won't let us have rocket fireworks in this state either. Odd laws.
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Old August 8, 2006, 10:54 PM   #28
LSU12ga
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its quite alright

FS.
its quite alright, i found both of your posts helpful.

I spoke to a police officer today and he said that batons are illeagal to carry, so that solvs that.

He suggested a taser, pepper spray, or (his personal favorite) a roll of quarters kept clenched in the fist.

thanks for everyones help!
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Old August 8, 2006, 11:54 PM   #29
Whitefalls
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Roll of quarters.. hehe. A guy I know also uses the quarters method and he's done some damage with them on one occassion. Not brave enough or confident enough in my swings to take that approach.

Firearm and/or OC spray for me.
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Old August 8, 2006, 11:57 PM   #30
38splfan
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A bit late.

I guess this doesn't matter as you've found out they are illegal, be here is a nifty tidbit about batons all the same.
We were recently issued them as a dismounted patrol "accessory", for when shooting just wouldn't be appropriate (detaining an IED cameraman, for example) so we decided to test them.
Someone rustled up an old SAPI ballistic vest plate. A good hard swing by a big man resulted in a plate cracked in two.
These are rated for up to 7.62 ballistic protection, BTW.

Not a subjective test as this one had already been hit, but certainly enough to make me want to stay clear of the business end of one
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Old August 9, 2006, 12:29 AM   #31
azurefly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlatSquirrel
These individuals are not rare. They are not psychotic, and not under the influence of anything except the desire to victimize/kill human beings and often, animals. Trust me on this: A normal person cannot imagine or comprehend the depravity of these people. It is not possible for a normal mind to function, even by imagination, in the manner exhibited by these criminals.

That's quite a chilling paragraph.


For what it's worth, I found your post very informative, and I didn't think it was a flame or anything otherwise pointedly insulting. Everyone has the right to correct or challenge the veracity of other posts, as long as they do it without attacking or denigrating. You write in a very clear, understandable and articulate manner. That is most welcome here.


Now, about the legality of ASP batons... I am kind of surprised to read that they are so commonly illegal! I had not known that. (I still don't think I "know" it, because I have not looked into the statutes that allegedly outlaw them in various states.)

Anyone have reliable information about their legality in Florida? I thought that the Florida concealed weapon license made it legal for licensees to carry concealed a variety of non-firearm weapons, and I thought that impact weapons were included...


-azurefly
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Old August 9, 2006, 12:40 AM   #32
azurefly
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This is directly from the state of Florida's department of licensing website:

Quote:
790.06 License to carry concealed weapon or firearm.--

(1) The Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services is authorized to issue licenses to carry concealed weapons or concealed firearms to persons qualified as provided in this section. Each such license must bear a color photograph of the licensee. For the purposes of this section, concealed weapons or concealed firearms are defined as a handgun, electronic weapon or device, tear gas gun, knife, or billie, but the term does not include a machine gun as defined in s. 790.001

Does an ASP baton fall under the category "billie"? I thought a billie was a club, like a policeman's baton of old. Surely a lawyer could make a case that an ASP is a modern-day "billie club," particularly since you would be hard-put to find a policeman these days carrying the old-school, wooden, lanyard-tied "billie club"...

Or do I have the definition of "billie" wrong?

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Old August 11, 2006, 07:16 PM   #33
TexiCali Slim
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A little late but better late then never.

LSU might I suggest a roll of pennys insted of quarters, they arent as big so you can get a better grip, still pack a whollop, and have a more natural fist. and that way when the roll breaks (and break it will) you lose .50 insted of $10.
you know a um....... <cough> guy told me that once
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Old August 11, 2006, 08:10 PM   #34
Kermit
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Just be aware of your local laws re: concealed weapons. I know in my state those collapsible batons are a no-no
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Old August 11, 2006, 08:33 PM   #35
banditt007
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pepper spray or a Sap/black jack
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Old August 11, 2006, 08:56 PM   #36
qwik
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how s about a hiking / walking stick --> soild redwood just wonding, almost need one with this bum knee
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Old August 14, 2006, 10:48 AM   #37
HK_P7
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I have OC Pepperspray made by ASP Heres the link:

http://www.asp-net.com/Products/Item...d=&ItemID=2473

This should fit the bill.
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Old August 15, 2006, 05:30 AM   #38
Para Bellum
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guardian angel jet protector

only heavy ones are effective. Heavy ones are slow in the infight. Can be taken away from you. You need a lot of skill. They are bulky....

get a knife and knifing skills, or even better than a pepper spray,
get a guardian angel jet protector

http://www.piexon.com/_html/04/0402_...an_angel.html#

From the website:
Quote:
GUARDIAN ANGEL doesn’t use a permanent pressure container, but a pyrotechnic power drive. The power drive, which is ignited by pulling the trigger, produces the necessary pressure to accelerate the liquid agent. The JET PROTECTOR technology accelerates the agent up to 40 m/s (90mph). It is impossible for an assailant to evade this "liquid projectile". The pyrotechnic drive is reliable in every position and orientation, and in extreme weather conditions (rain/sun/snow). For this reason GUARDIAN ANGEL has a higher system reliability than any other irritant or pepper spray canister.
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Old August 17, 2006, 01:50 AM   #39
raymond-
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it doesn't say how 'hot' the solution is. do you know?
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Old August 17, 2006, 02:04 AM   #40
Blackwater OPS
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It does, 10%. But where can you buy it?
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Old August 17, 2006, 08:41 AM   #41
raymond-
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tnx, i saw that. but 10% doesn't mean much. think about it....10% of ( ) is a pointless advertising hook.
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Old August 17, 2006, 02:55 PM   #42
Blackwater OPS
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Well if you look at it that way, I don't know of any OC rating that is not an advertising hook. The only real way to know, is to test it.
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to purchase a little temporary Safety,
deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
-Ben Franklin

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Died 9/1/2005
and the best DS ever
MSG Matthew Ritz
Died 11.23.2005
matthewritz.com

For those who have had to fight for it, Life holds a special meaning that the protected will never know.

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(='.'=) Someone set us up the bunny!
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Old August 18, 2006, 07:36 AM   #43
O6nop
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How hot is it?

Raymond-
In HK_P7's link, it states:
Quote:
Replaceable aerosol inserts contain 10% Oleoresin Capsicum which delivers Two Million Scoville Heat Units in strength.
Is that what you're looking for?

More info?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoville_scale
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Old August 18, 2006, 10:15 AM   #44
raymond-
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tnx O6....yes...kinda. was looking for the SCU on the Piexon spray but otherwise,
yes. that comes as close to a 'standard' as one can get with OC. so with the
example you've referenced (HK's ASP spray) 10% @ 2m is so-so. tnx for the
tip .
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Old August 21, 2006, 03:56 PM   #45
Jack Malloy
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Well.....

The legality depends upon the state you live in.
For example, in Kentucky you can carry any weapon you want, short of a tactical nuke and its okay, so long as you have a CCW permit. House bill 40 covers knives, swords, pistols, karate weapons, etc...
God bless the Bluegrass State!!!!
(they have the enhanced Castle law too!)

In West Virginia you cant carry one (legally) even with a permit....
(And you can get sued if you shoot, stab, or beat up a home invader)....

Check with your state, and also attend an NRA refuse to be a Victim seminar if possible.....

Now, Grasshopper, let the Old Tengu From the Mountains give yuh the lowdown....

Pepper spray is generally worthless for a couple of reasons. Number one, it doesnt affect drunks much. Number two, it doesn't affect people on Opoids (Oxycontin, Hydrocodone, Xanax, Lortab, Furicet, etc) much. Number three, it doesnt affect crazy people much either.
Chances are, if you get mugged your attacker will be one of the three...Drunk, on drugs, or nutty.
If the biggest threat you have is a sane, tea totalling wimp, it might be a good choice...

You would be better off spraying him in the eyes with hair spray, bug spray or something else that has alcohol in it....Years ago ,a friend of mine in LE told me about a perp that got two whole cans of cap stun sprayed in his eyes and still fought...Till they grabbed some hair spray off a nightstand and gave him a face full.He screamed in agony and rolled on the floor, allowing the officers to cuff him. Turns out, it had alcohol in it, which burned his eyes bad.....
Screw him, the watch commander said...
Ah, the good old days!
Of the various pepper sprays, cap stuns, chemical agents etc. none of them is as effective as the original mace was, and that is no longer for sale...Everything else is a PC wannabe. Look for hair spray or bug spray with rubbing alcohol in it....
You can always claim you just had it on you and fought back as best you could.....

Even though an ASP baton may not be kosher in your neck of the woods legally, its not a bad idea as its carryable and concealable ....
As somebody who got knifed by a mugger in college, I can assure you if you fight them off, chances are they will run away. Remember, these are just street skells looking for an easy score, not a fight. Put up a fight and they generally seek easier prey...
If you fight off a mugger and you use an ASP to do it, chances are that neither the cops or the local prosecutor will care....
That is, if the incident is even noticed by police. Remember, muggers attack in remote areas where nobody is apt to see what happens....


If you lay a theif out with your fists or a stick or a can of bug spray just move on, unless there is a crowd of witnesses. If there is a crowd of witnesses scream for help at the top of your lungs and say things like "did you see him attack me? He attacked me," as people in crowds often are not paying attention. You would not want him to claim later that he asked you for $5 and you attacked him for no reason...
Another good reason to move on is that he might not be alone. Predators often travel in packs....While you are standing around waiting for officer friendly to fill out a report, some other pain pill eating scuzzball could come up behind you and scramble your brains with a crowbar or use your pancreas for dart practice with a switchblade.
Personally, unless I used a gun, I would just move on, unless there was acrowd around....
If I used a gun, I would call 911 immediatly and report the incident....and pray that I did not get sued into oblivion over some human drug incinerator who never worked a day in their life....
John Law will most likely pay closer attention to you if you use a gun, even WITH a permit, or if you use a sawed off pool cue, ninja weaponry or a stun gun than they would over an ASP baton....
Remember, most police are not experts on the law. I have seen law abiding citizens get greif over open carry because the (usually) young officer in question did not know this, that or the other state had open carry laws.
Chances are, they won't realize that the tactical type batons are considered verboten unless you make a big stink about it...
Or you could always carry a big Mag Light flashlight....
Its handy as Thors Hammer in CQB, and yet it doubles as a flashlight and it totally legal to boot. Thing is, its heavy.....
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