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Old August 4, 2006, 12:32 AM   #1
LSU12ga
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collapsible batons?

I am a college student and often have to walk across campus at night. WHile i do feel safe having some sort of protection on me would be nice. guns are illeagal on campus, so i figured the next best thing would be a baton/asp, i can put it in my pocket or carry it when i walk home late at night.

My question to y'all is this, does anyone here have any expierence with these devices, and if so what type should i buy or what should i be looking for. I have seen steel and aluminum batons so i dont know which is best. Any advice would be nice.

Thanks!
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Old August 4, 2006, 12:40 AM   #2
raymond-
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personally, i prefer the steel units as the inertia is greater when deployed. who
knows when i may need to use this to break out a car window etc. but!.....you
may also want to review your local laws before purchasing one, to see what the
ramifications are if carrying one in public. some locales have made this option
prohibited
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Old August 4, 2006, 01:13 AM   #3
oldbillthundercheif
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Batons are... um...
Well, they are...

Get one of those fire-extinguisher-size pepper sprays.
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Old August 4, 2006, 02:28 AM   #4
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used to carry one in my school bag, steel three peice whip stick, belonged to my father who was a cop. I realized after a while, it was pretty useless unless it was on my belt, and even more so because i didnt have any training with it. Itd probably make a good deterrant if someone tried to rough you up, but other than that its useless unless you know what youre doing its just going to get you into trouble. Either excessive force or itll get taken away from you, and then youre in big trouble.

Side Note: If you want something to bust out car windows, get a centerpunch and keep it in your glove box or on your key chain, its hard to break a car window with a baton when youre upside down and underwater, my grandmother can apply enough pressure to break a window with a centerpunch.....course shes six four two fifty
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Old August 4, 2006, 04:41 AM   #5
Blackwater OPS
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Get a good can of pepperspray instead.
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Old August 4, 2006, 04:53 AM   #6
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if i were you i would get a good flashlight. i carry a flashlight with me. i have now gotten this

http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/.../888/sesent/00

it works for me at night.

and pepper spray.
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Old August 4, 2006, 03:47 PM   #7
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Be Careful

Many states consider a baton an offensive weapon, and having on on you can be as bad as carrying a gun if you don't have a permit. Florida allows you to carry one with a concealed weapons permit, but Georgia did not.

A flashlight is a much better choice, like a big D-Cell Mag Light. They are cheaper, serve a dual purpose, and nobody can classify it as a weapon. Besides, it's heavy enough to really hurt.
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Old August 4, 2006, 05:46 PM   #8
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batons rock. You DO have to be willing to use it though, and just wade in on someone. It is very difficult to withstand being whacked with one of these. I have seen them break up fights quickly.
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Old August 4, 2006, 11:23 PM   #9
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Be careful; there are a lot of brands out there, and a lot of them are junk. I recommend staying with a true ASP, although they are a bit expensive.

Training with these is a must. We train hard with the ASP, and our training is full contact (red man).

Quote:
You DO have to be willing to use it though, and just wade in on someone.
Mannlicher speaks the truth. I've seen too many guys swing these things half heartedly. You really have to be willing to put your weight behind it.
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Old August 5, 2006, 02:48 PM   #10
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I would definitely check out the local laws regarding these weapons. If you are at college and cannot carry a firearm then a baton in my honest opinion is a better option than a can of seasoning. There are stories about how a guy was sprayed by police only to continue the assault and hurt somebody. You do have to train with it but it can be a very effective weapon. It also has a very effective psychological deterrant. I have a 16" ASP and it is very well made. you can adjust the tension pin to make it alot easier to open should that need ever arise. Please remember that a baton like any weapon is an extension of your body and therefore you must retain positive control over it or you will be the one getting cracked with it instead of the bad guy.
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Old August 5, 2006, 03:29 PM   #11
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Quote:
I would definitely check out the local laws regarding these weapons. If you are at college and cannot carry a firearm then a baton in my honest opinion is a better option than a can of seasoning.
Heheh, you must not have ever been sprayed with OC. I would rather get shot, seriously.
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Old August 5, 2006, 04:03 PM   #12
oldbillthundercheif
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The Flavor of Pain

Yep. While it is an entirely acceptable additive to pizza sauce or anything else that needs to spiced up... it is god-awful to be sprayed with. I have caught errant droplets of the stuff on several occasions while working at concerts and let me tell you it is treacherous in the extreme.

I'm sure there are some masochistic types out there who could fight through the pain, but it's awfully hard to win a fight when you can't see your opponent. Trust me, it works.
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Old August 5, 2006, 04:27 PM   #13
Keegster
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Surefire flashlights

Personally I think a tactical flashlight like a Surefire, with no less than 60 lumens, would do. If you shine it in the eyes, it will cause temporary blindness and that would allow you to slip away. Also some of the models have crenullated bezels so they double up as a baton type weapon.

http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/...1132/sesent/00
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Old August 5, 2006, 07:13 PM   #14
BillCA
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For night use, I'm also in favor of the SureFire or other high-output tactical flashlights. My SureFire uses only 2 small lithium batteries but it's bright! The advantage here is that even a brief sweep over someone's eyes is dazzling enough to cause night-blind "spots" to allow you to move away. You can repeat several times or against multiple persons and you don't have to worry about which way the wind is blowing.

If you decide to use some kind of baton, however, I have the following advice;
1. Check your local laws and talk to your local PD about it first.
2. Buy quality - don't buy a cheapie "Made in China" unit.
3. Get one that expands to at least 24" or 28". (28" is police baton length)
4. See if you can get some training, ideally from a police officer or someone qualified to teach baton techniques.
5. Study and memorize the effective strike zones and methods.

There's a lot more to it than using it as a "thumper" against someone. Knowing not only where to strike, but how to strike is also important.
It's also important to learn how to break someone's hold on your baton before they can wrench it away.
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Old August 5, 2006, 07:37 PM   #15
OneInTheChamber
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Check your local laws. Too bulky to be carried everywhere (as a college student). Too offensive to be carried openly. To hard to use effectively without training.

OC spray fits the ticket. Small, legal, defensive.
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Old August 5, 2006, 11:19 PM   #16
LSU12ga
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oc spray?

what is OC spray?
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Old August 5, 2006, 11:38 PM   #17
Blackwater OPS
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"Oleoresin Capsicum", basically its the technical term for pepper spray.
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Old August 5, 2006, 11:40 PM   #18
TexiCali Slim
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Pepper spray

I think a cop would be more sympathetic to your side of the story by simply pepper spraying the guy, opposed to beating the crap out of him with a baton. BTW if we got in a fight and tide of the fight turned in my favor, I would be a lot less forgiving (fair fighter) if you were whailing on me with a baton for the first part.
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Old August 7, 2006, 12:49 PM   #19
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Quote:
Check your local laws. Too bulky to be carried everywhere (as a college student). Too offensive to be carried openly. To hard to use effectively without training.
Ironically I carried a cheap spring baton when I went to college. There was a side pocket in my backpack that it fit perfectly in. However it was heavy and when I dropped my backpack on my desk just the right way it was LOUD. Check your local laws (www.packing.org) baton are usually the same as a blackjack, in most state they are illegal to carry. You could carry a 4D mag light but this would be bulkier, and slower to draw from a backpack. While surefire's are OK, they don't help if you get mugged in daylight. OC or maybe a good Stungun (if legal in your area) may be the way to go.
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Old August 7, 2006, 02:15 PM   #20
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Beter Choice

A better choice would be a pepper spray that combines the MCs(Major Capsaicinoids)/pepper + CS/"Military"tear gas from a quality manufacturer.Sabre products from Security Equipment Corp.(in business since 1975)for example, just make sure you get the pepper/CS combination(if legal) as they also sell "Red" sprays that are pepper only sprays.Manfacturer states this formulation is not legal for sale in HI.,NY.,and WI. They do have pepper only sprays in levals lll or ll that can be respectively legal for sale in all 50 states.The little P-22 model goes in my buttoned shirt,P3AT in my pants pocket,a serrated clip folder(seat belts in an emergency)when I leave my property.Inexpensive/comfortable personal insurance, add in a larger spray unit in the door pocket and or the larger unit, larger gun(.38 or up) in belt mounted bag, and a shotgun in the trunk/ behind the seat(all legally done/CCL) if going to/through risky areas.Batons are illegal in Oklahoma even with a CCL,but canes are legal and very good alternative in most locals. www.sabre-sabered.com

Last edited by Kas; August 7, 2006 at 02:40 PM. Reason: additional info
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Old August 7, 2006, 02:47 PM   #21
LSU12ga
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thanks to everyone for your help!
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Old August 7, 2006, 03:17 PM   #22
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Hold it right there, Chief!!!

Concerning ASPs:

Bad idea! Bad idea!!! In most places, carrying an ASP is a felony, and it's NOT covered by a typical conceal-carry permit! Even if you ARE licensed, you still cannot carry one legally. (Check state laws; consult a lawyer; and then check state laws AGAIN!!!)

That said, we rely on the basic principle that a weapon in the hand of an untrained user is, at best, a paperweight; and at worst, a SERIOUS physical liability. Without proper training in (most would say stick-fighting, I say Iaido), the ONLY thing you are doing carrying a stick is (a) slowing down your own fist, and (b) offering your attacker a nice, shiny new ASP!

"But, Samurai," you say, "An untrained person with a gun would SURELY know how to pull the trigger!" This is quite true. BUT, believe it or not (and I know most of you won't), a club is MUCH harder to use properly and efficiently than a gun. In the order of easiest to hardest to use properly, the order is: gun, blade, club. An untrained person with a club is just asking to get beaten up!

To use a weapon properly, you need to be able to strike ONCE with the weapon with a force sufficient to instantly (or nearly instantly) stop an attack. Now, anyone who's seen TV knows that if you squeeze a trigger, cool stuff happens. An untrained gun-toting TV-watcher could (and I stress could) figure out how to shoot someone in a moment of crisis. A sharp blade will sever flesh and nerve without much force. But, training with a club involves coordinating muscle groups in your WHOLE body to gain enough power in a single swing to break bones, crush nerve clusters, in a word, DEBILITATE! This is NOT something that you can learn in a weekend!

Now, don't get me wrong. I LOVE my ASP. It's 28" (Freud was right!). It travels quite well, and I take it with me on trips to practice Iaido katas while I'm away from home. ASPs are GREAT, if, and ONLY IF you know how to use them, know where to strike, and can hit your mark with a FULL and uninterrupted swing EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Pepper Spray:

Love it! A can of Pepper Spray works like a GUN! It's reasonably easy to use: Just push the button, and try not to get in the way of the little hole! When I travel on campus, I like a good 15% Military grade OC spray, a side of ribs, and a cold beer. When an attacker approaches, spray the ribs, eat the ribs, kiss the attacker full on the mouth, and refuse to share your beer. Attacker's mouth will begin to burn, and he'll run away screaming. It's good stuff!

(Ok kids at home, don't really try that. OC spray is not really good on ribs. But it seems like it would be, doesn't it?)

No Cop will EVER give you grief about carrying non-lethal spray. Carrying an ASP on a College campus can get you into A BUNCH of trouble. Don't go off half-cocked!

S.
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Old August 8, 2006, 12:58 AM   #23
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Several comments were made by an esteemed member who tells us that stick fighting requires a fancy foreign name, apparently to highlight its' serious nature as a form of self defense. I will accept that assertion as I know nothing about sticks. Perhaps someone knows a circumspect samurai (sorry about the redundancy) who can speak to this matter.

Quote: "No Cop will EVER give you grief about carrying non-lethal spray."
I do know a bit about various laws governing OC in some states, and have serious doubts about the writer's veracity in regard to how police will react to the civilian use of OC, depending on the jurisdiction.

I must wholeheartedly agree with, and suggest that the writer observe his suggestion: "Don't go off half-cocked!" This is especially apparent with the commentary: [Quote] "A can of Pepper Spray works like a GUN! It's reasonably easy to use: Just push the button, and try not to get in the way of the little hole!"

While the following commentary was amusing, the concept offered, remains.

It is surprising that a proponent of the viability of stick fighting for self defense, by well trained users, wouldn't see the same need for at least some minimal training for using sprays for SD. Simply observe the police oriented reality shows which are common on TV. Even trained policemen screw up the use of sprays.

During a period of personal foolishness, I worked in the Administrative Segregation and High Security units of a maximum security prison. These were the highest levels of hazardous prisoners in the State. OC was used rather frequently, and I have examined it's effects on prisoners, and have been "gassed" a number of times. On people like me, OC is absolutely debilitating, and rapidly so.

The bad news: I'm not a criminal, and if you use OC, you better pray that your target is as big a weenie as I am. There is an amazing number of people who are astoundingly dangerous, and absolutely immune to the effects of OC. A "GUN" it ain't.

These individuals are not rare. They are not psychotic, and not under the influence of anything except the desire to victimize/kill human beings and often, animals. Trust me on this: A normal person cannot imagine or comprehend the depravity of these people. It is not possible for a normal mind to function, even by imagination, in the manner exhibited by these criminals.

The professional grade OC was delivered from canisters like you see for bear defense, and ironically, resembled fire extinguishers. I have seen many men painted brown and wet from head to toe with OC and not have so much as blepharospasm, the uncontrollable spasmodic closing of the eyelids that "regular" people experience. One multiple murderer stood in the hall, painted brown, and wet with OC, slashing with his shiv and demanding that the security team come and take him on. They did, with a 37mm canister of CS fired from a tear gas type gun. This combination worked every time I saw it used.

I must agree with Kas on his recommendation of using a combination spray if you choose a spray for SD. OC/CS or OC/CN would seem to be superior. Personally, I have seen a few people who react minimally to CN, so my preference, and the one I carry is OC/CS. CS is unimaginably debilitating to most people. I say most, simply because I suspect that somewhere, there is a dirtbag that is immune to this, too. I don't carry spray alone, for this reason.

Depending on your circumstances, I'd suggest at least having good running shoes as a backup, because even the immune folks get extremely testy and belligerent when sprayed. Failing that, consider carrying something more definitive, and face the music, if necessary, but face it alive.

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Old August 8, 2006, 08:46 AM   #24
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Riiiight...

Mmmkay! FlatSquirrel seems to be a little high-strung! And, not to point it out when I've blatantly been flamed in a manner that is ENTIRELY off topic, but...

Those darned "fer'ners!" I hate 'em all, don't you? ...with their "fancy" fer'eign names... Ok, FlatSquirrel... take it easy with the hostility... This is supposed to be a peaceful forum.

There are several forms of stick-fighting martial arts. The Tais teach it, the Brazillians teach it, and the Phillippinos teach it (among many others). And, currently, I do not know the names of ANY of those styles. What I train is a japanese martial art called Iaido. It's, essentially, samurai sword fighting, and it translates over to stick fighting really well. I would recommend it to anyone who wants to learn about a blade OR a club-type weapon. (There are some finer distinctions between Iaido and Kendo, but I honestly don't think FlatSquirrel cares... Besides, he clearly has internet access, he could always go look it up.)

Now, regarding my comments about the OC spray. Clearly, (well, apparently not so clearly, because FlatSquirrel didn't get it...) I was kidding about the ribs. FlatSquirrel, I'm serious, man! Do NOT try to eat OC spray on a side of ribs! You'll REALLY hurt yourself. I don't care how many people you've seen walk right through a drenching. Back away from the ribs, man!

My point about the "works like a gun" statement is not, in fact, that the chemicals have the same stopping power as a hunk of lead. My point was, merely, that the delivery apparatus works approximately the same way. In other words, with both a gun and a can of spray, you have a button which actuates the discharge of a dangerous substance (hot lead vs. caustic chemicals) from a nozzle which SHOULD be positioned away from you. Push the button and watch the mayhem, get it? They work the same way...

Of COURSE the spray doesn't have the same stopping power as a gun! That's why they call it NON-LETHAL!!!

Now, OF COURSE you should ALWAYS train in a weapon if you have the opportunity. My point was, if a person who has not trained in either weapons is going to choose between a club and a can of OC spray, the chances of an untrained successful use is FAR better with the OC spray. And, the reason for this is that the club requires a certain element of physical proficiency, and the OC spray is not strength-dependent.

Anything else I can answer for you?
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- Why is it that we fire 1,000 rounds and know that we need more practice, but yet we punch a bag 10 times and think we know how to fight?

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Old August 8, 2006, 08:55 AM   #25
superpelly
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Get this 3 in 1 combo (stun club,flashlight,and club)
http://www.beststungun.com/flashlight-stun-guns.html
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