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Old August 2, 2006, 10:55 PM   #101
stephen426
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CWO4USCGRET,

While you might be an outstanding officer who understands and respects the right of citizens to bear arms, the negative attitude and hesitance to call LEO by some members who posted on this thread may have been caused by a negative experience from some stupid arrogant prick with a badge who thinks only LEO should have guns. I hope that only describes a very small percentage of LEO, but I have personally run into a few of them. Don't take it as a personal attack.
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Old August 2, 2006, 11:16 PM   #102
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Once again, what every citizen should do cannot be addressed by simply acceding to what you think they ought to do a la being so altruistic about the safety of hypothetical future victims of "Bigfoot" who may or may not even come to exist, that they expose themselves to what they perceive to be the potential for persecution and malicious prosecution by local law enforcement.

Me, I would leave the weighing of whether to call the police and say, "I just had to pull a gun on this guy who accosted me in a threatening manner," to the individual, who is more likely to know (or have a sense of) how sympathetic his local law enforcement agency is to citizens doing that kind of thing.

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Old August 3, 2006, 12:01 AM   #103
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Reporting to the police means using common sense.

For those posters who are afraid to call the police: Just report the presence and actions of a bad guy. You don't have to call 911. You can either go in person or stay anonymous if you like and just call the station.

Keep it simple. You don't have to confess that last year you were drunk in Paducah. Just consider your words to report the bad guy's location, appearance, and actions.

It's not about you, it's about the bad guy.

It's always possible to refer to your 'good citizen' call at a later time if needed.

This is not intended to second guess Wild's action, he did well, attack stopped, no blood shed. Sun Tsu would be proud.

He chose not to call the police after considering that specific situation. That's different from someone giving generic advice to not call the police because you are afraid of them.

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Old August 3, 2006, 12:03 AM   #104
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Gunner (at least we call you guys "Gunner" in the Marines), I respect you for the forcefull presentation of your convictions/opinions (Heck, I never met a CWO4 who didn't have those qualities), but I do think you're being a tad too PC and too much of a "company" man in this instance. I carry my CCW to survive a threat of grave injury or death not to make the world a safer place for others.

You seem to have a somewhat inflated regard for LE. I have friends and relatives who are LE officers...good folks. Some are not all that good and I'd avoid having them around if I can have a choice. It's only common sense to recognize that fact. Heck, LE works for us. Our taxes pay for their keep. We can decide whether or not to involve them in certain situations as described above.

Well, since you said that was your last comment on the matter I feel like I'm picking on an unarmed man...so I reckon I'll just let you slide.
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Old August 3, 2006, 12:08 AM   #105
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I believe that it is civic responsibility to call the police if you ever had to brandish a firearm to defend yourself. But i can understand where azurefly is coming from since i do live in Massachusetts. It is extremely hard in some places just to get a license to carry. I live in boston and they want you to either own a business or be a crime victim just to even give you one(assuming that you survived the criminal attack). People here are afraid of losing their license if they had to call the cops to investigate. Many people are afraid they they themselves are going to end up in handcuffs, while the perp goes on about his business. If they do have to shoot they always hear the same thing, you should have called the police. I bet most times they will revoke the license and take any guns you have into police custody, leaving you defenseless again. Should people always call the cops? Probably. Will they always call the police? Probably not? And in some cases I can't blame them.
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Old August 3, 2006, 12:14 AM   #106
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Quote:
For those posters who are afraid to call the police: Just report the presence and actions of a bad guy. You don't have to call 911. You can either go in person or stay anonymous if you like and just call the station.

Keep it simple. You don't have to confess that last year you were drunk in Paducah.

Did you miss the part where I hypothesized that the gorilla, once picked up, might start telling the cops (who may or may not be sympathetic to CCW) that some guy at such-and-such parking lot pulled a gun on him?

Who knows whether that's going to end up burning you or not. Risk it? Hey, man, I'm not making the decision for you -- don't try to make it for me.

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Old August 3, 2006, 12:21 AM   #107
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I believe that it is civic responsibility to call the police if you ever had to brandish a firearm to defend yourself. But i can understand where azurefly is coming from since i do live in Massachusetts.
Holy Moly -- you live in Massachusetts and you still believe it is your civic duty to put yourself and your freedom on the line knowing that the overwhelming civil authority in MA is steadfastly hostile to your right to KABA?! Talk about misplaced loyalty! You might as well tell me that I should return the dropped wallet to a guy who just robbed me, after it fell out of his pocket while he beat me!

There is such a stark disconnect between your first sentence and the rest of what you said in your post. I can barely believe that after noting all of that, you still feel that a person has an obligation to call the authorities -- when they're the same authorities that don't give YOU the benefit of any doubt when it comes to having or using a gun!

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Old August 3, 2006, 12:25 AM   #108
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Remaining true to the heart of the original subject --
can anyone say whether there actually is a LEGAL requirement of any state's CCW license that mandates that a licensee notify the police if a gun is drawn against a person in self defense or any other situation involving display or use of force?

Is there any statutory requirement to notify authorities that you had to use a gun? Of course if you shot someone, I imagine something might obligate you to notify authorities, but I admit I don't know where even that is found. But if you aim a gun at some prowler from your porch and he runs off, does any law say you have to call police? If not, what about if you FIRE the gun but don't hit anyone or damage any property?


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Old August 3, 2006, 12:44 AM   #109
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Azurefly,
Hence the reason why i will be moving to Vermont in just 7 days. I think it would be a good idea to call the police just to cover your 6 o'clock. if it's on record that you had to defend yourself and that guy comes back, then you are covered. I agree with you as to why people don't call the police. Especially after living in this draconian state. I don't know if this is the way i would handle the situation. I don't know where you live, but here in Mass it's usually the first person to call the police that are often times regarded as the victim. I have talked to many lawyers about this and alot of them tell me this is the way it is here.
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Old August 3, 2006, 01:48 AM   #110
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Quote:
Did you miss the part where I hypothesized ...
Nope, I didn't miss it-- I dismissed it.

To me it's not a matter of calling the police to inform them that I had to draw my weapon. It's about reporting a bad guy. I don't have to volunteer everything I know or did at the time. Whether I wore boxers or briefs is moot.

Quote:
...the gorilla, once picked up, might start telling the cops...
He may do that anyway whenever he gets picked up, today, tomorrow, next month. It's not a secret if the bad guy knows about it (along with any witnesses - motorists, window watchers, whatever- I didn't notice because of my tunnel vision at the time).

If the subject comes up, I'm on record as being a concerned, law abiding citizen.

Larry
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Old August 3, 2006, 02:12 AM   #111
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A sidenote:

It's unfortunate that some of my fellow Americans see the police as another version of bad guy.

I've been to those places both here and overseas.

I do hope that those living in the oppressed territories are able to escape or elect a new government someday.

Larry
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Last edited by Lancel; August 3, 2006 at 01:17 PM.
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Old August 3, 2006, 10:13 AM   #112
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Quote:
Reporting to the police means using common sense.
So is not using power tools that aren't grounded. Most of the time it's ok to use that tool, ie the sun is shining, the power wire lays on dry ground. If it's raining and your ladder is metal and the power cord is laying in a puddle though...thats when common sense kicks in and the tool is not used.

The police administration & procedures is not grounded to the people anymore. Most of the time it's ok to use the tool but more n more people get electrocuted by trying to do the right thing.

It is unforunate that people are seeing the police as a potential threat to themselves. That's cause & effect. We didn't get up and decide oh lets make the police the BG today for no reason.

Come on Wild, you're on a metal ladder in a puddle with an ungrounded (power supply)...flick that switch. It'll be ok. Uh huh. Just remember that once you flick that switch, there's no turning back. They electrocuted Labgrade for trying to do the right thing, remember?

Besides, the critical point is past now. If the guy was going to call on WA, he'd have done it already, and they'd be knocking on the door. If he calls so much after the fact now, what're they going to find? An older guy much smaller than the behemoth who works in a gunshop? And the perp prolly has a record to boot. I think you're safe from that at this point. If the guy does come back, it's going to be just as clearcut as before.

Hey look on the bright side...WA saved the taxpayers some money. Kudos.
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Old August 3, 2006, 01:32 PM   #113
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azurefly...

The question was, I believe, are you under an obligation to call the cops if you discharge your weapon?

The short answer is, no. There's no duty to report your own actions. (That's nationwide, under the 5th Amendment right against self-incrimination.) But, in my city, it is illegal to discharge firearms within city limits. As I understand it, it's like that in most mid- to large-sized cities. So, if you discharge a weapon, you commit a crime. Now, whether to involve the legal system (and waive your 5th Amendment right by confessing to firing the shot) is a tactical decision that must be dealt with one case at a time. (We are all clear that litigation is a modern form of combat, and that therefore all decisions regarding law enforcement must be made on a tactical basis, right???)

If you expect that someone will call the cops, then you'd better call. The phone call is your chance to establish justification for firing the round by being "in fear of imminent death or SBI." Besides, even if it's an accidental discharge, it would be nice to rely on that "concerned citizen" phone call as evidence of lack of malicious intent.

If, on the other hand, you don't expect that others will call the cops, or if you don't expect to get caught, then there's no reason to call and incriminate yourself by admitting to having committed a crime (i.e., unlawful discharge within city limits). You'd only be shooting yourself in the foot, so to speak...
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Old August 3, 2006, 01:41 PM   #114
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Nope, I didn't miss it-- I dismissed it.

To me it's not a matter of calling the police to inform them that I had to draw my weapon. It's about reporting a bad guy. I don't have to volunteer everything I know or did at the time. Whether I wore boxers or briefs is moot.
Please, it's disingenuous to imply that this is no different from whether you were wearing boxers or briefs that day. This is about the police coming back to you after you called them to report the guy, and them asking you, "So, uh, this guy says that you actually pulled a GUN on him that day. You didn't mention having done that."

Now they're ****** off at you for misrepresenting what had happened.
AND, they now don't trust the crap that comes out of your mouth because they know you will omit stuff and edit your story if you think certain parts might cast you in a negative light. With them, you have no credibility anymore. All because you deigned that you had to call them about this guy because he's such a menace to the public and you're so altruistic that you feel it's your duty to make them safer, but didn't wish to mention that you'd pulled the gun.

So my view is, you either call them about the guy AND TELL them that you pulled the gun, or you don't call them at all. The more distortion you put into your story, the more potential it has to really screw you.


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Old August 3, 2006, 01:56 PM   #115
281 Quad Cam
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^^^ +1 azurefly

You can't expect the police to run this guy down, and him not accuse you of pulling a gun. Infact he may accuse you of much more than that.

Police have a problem with being open minded. If there is a problem between two people - both are suspect.

The dividing line however, is that you pulled a gun and admit to it... and the bad guy doesn't admit to doing anything wrong.

Now, if you cut out all the "he says she says..." and go on confessions. ONLY YOU have confessed to doing something that could be illegal.

I think the tables could turn VERY quickly to the scumbag pressing charges on you, and suing you in civil court.
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Old August 3, 2006, 02:35 PM   #116
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I don't care what state you live in. If you are ccw, and you feel threatened enough to pull it, and you have the present of mind enough to call out " STOP', and they don't STOP, then by all means DROP him!
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Old August 3, 2006, 05:01 PM   #117
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There's no doubt that an imaginative poster can invent a scenario to support his point. I can imagine words and actions to provoke others but I try to conduct myself otherwise.

The ability to have intelligent conversations with authority figures is a good one to cultivate.
That includes conversations with bosses and wives.

I'm fortunate to live and play in an area where the police reaction to the original poster's actions would be praise and understanding.
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Old August 3, 2006, 06:21 PM   #118
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Quote:
I'm fortunate to live and play in an area where the police reaction to the original poster's actions would be praise and understanding.

That good fortune is really all it comes down to in this debate we're having.
I would leave it up to the individual, in his individual circumstances, to have an understanding of whether he is likely to get praise or trouble from the police for having scared a criminal off by using a concealed carry handgun.

There is no one-size-fits-all answer to the question, "Should WA have called the police," some members' insistence to the contrary notwithstanding.


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Old August 3, 2006, 07:03 PM   #119
CWO4USCGRET
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I just can't leave

it alone...

Quote:
There is no one-size-fits-all answer to the question, "Should WA have called the police," some members' insistence to the contrary notwithstanding.
You know Azure. everyone has the "right" to do whatever they darn well please.

There is a point that I have been trying to make, that has been overlooked, missed, or just plain ignored:

My comments about calling the police have nothing to do with wether or not WildAlaska should report himself for pulling out his gun; from the sound of it, as a lawfully CCW Permit Holder he acted as he is permitted under the law and had I been arrested for pointing his gun at someone (under the described circumstances) I would be the first to send in a donation to his defense fund.

My comment about not calling the police concerns a civic responsibility to make sure the bad guy gets taken off the street before he attacks someone who isn't armed and prepared like WA. What if the bad guy, stung by his near brush with death got even angrier, broke into a house and brutally raped and murdered someone? What if, had someone done their civic duty and responsibility, called the police, gave an accurate description of the person, and he was interecepted; found to be high on drugs, had a history of violent behavior, and thanks to a phone call, taken off the streets.

What I hear you saying is by not calling the police, you condone the violent behavior, and even though you are a responsible, law abiding citizen, you'd rather let someone else potentially get harmed then make a phone call?

What ever happened; where I grew up neighbors (and even strangers) helped each other.
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Old August 4, 2006, 04:59 AM   #120
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Enough gun?

Lots of issues in this thread and the issue of what is or isn't effective for CCW has come up. WA's .32 was effective. That's a fact. The BG backed down. Had he not...??? It's no skin off my nose what anyone uses for CCW, but I must say that claiming .22s and .32s as effective against 200+ pound, mean tempered BGs seems about as bogus as would claiming effectiveness for shooting geese with .22 rat shot or shooting Mule deer with a .30 Carbine.

Welcome back, Gunner. I would have bet at least even $ on your return. I don't share your feeling of any kind of obligation to save the rest of the world from your perceptions of remote hints of danger. Heck, we've got enough politicians who play that game.
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Old August 4, 2006, 01:44 PM   #121
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I guess I can't leave it alone either.

Cause I can see legitimate concerns for both sides of the fence.

Yes, CWO4USCGRET, whatever did happen to when neighbors and strangers helped each other? Well, for one thing, and I know I'm preaching to the choir here, over the last 20+ years enough people have had their keisters sued off way too many times for doing "the right thing" to make a lot of people gun shy (no pun intended).

What ifs, shouldas, wouldas and couldas. No one knows. That's the problem. What if WAs bigfoot sees the error of his ways after staring down the barrel of that Seecamp? What if he cleans up his act and becomes a model citizen; heck, what if he becomes a spokesperson for the local constabulary among what used to be his peer group about how being a BG can get you real dead real fast? We just don't know.

And those of us on this forum don't know if the local situation in Anchorage that Ken may have to face if he reports the incident could potentially risk his entire livelihood. If Anchorage has some overagressive DA and hotheaded cops who don't support RKBA, he could theoretically risk losing not only his CC permit, but his gun owning rights as well. Note his occupation. Gun Store Owner. That means he could potentially lose everything, if the political situation is bad enough.

It shouldn't be that way, but we all know that in some places it is. That's just it. We don't know. And sometimes the possible risks others might end up facing, like in your last posted example, just aren't worth what might be more certain personal consequences.
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Old August 4, 2006, 02:21 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CW04
What I hear you saying is by not calling the police, you condone the violent behavior, and even though you are a responsible, law abiding citizen, you'd rather let someone else potentially get harmed then make a phone call?

What ever happened; where I grew up neighbors (and even strangers) helped each other.

Wow. Where do you get off putting words in my mouth that I "condone the violent behavior," and would "rather let someone else potentially get harmed then [sic] make a phone call"?!

That's reckless and irresponsible of you, not to mention quite defamatory.

Like someone else here said, I carry a gun for PERSONAL PROTECTION, and it is not my responsibility to see to the safety of the general public. While I understand the concern that the guy may set off to hunt a less prickly victim, I would have to, like anyone else, weigh the potential for ME to get in trouble.

Let's change the situation a bit. You confront a similar vagrant in a place where you technically were not supposed to have your gun. Maybe you were picking up your girlfriend at a local university, or you had dropped into a local bar and grill kind of restaurant and had a burger and a coke (no alcohol), but the place is the kind that is circumscribed by the terms of your CCW license.

Now you call the police. They pick the guy up. He makes a counter-assertion that YOU pulled a gun on him. Naturally, the police ask you about this, and you have to decide on the spot to deny it (and to deny even having a gun on you) or not. If those cops decide to frisk you -- and they probably will, I imagine, since a criminal complaint is being made that you pulled a gun! -- they will find that you were carrying a gun on you in a prohibited place. Yay. Your altruism just lost you your CCW license.

I stand behind saying that personal protection is every individual's onus, and I will not be held responsible for the fact that the wildman's next victim was not adequately equipped or of the adequate mindset to defend him or herself.


But really, you ought to be more responsible than to post words into my mouth like you did.


-azurefly
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Old August 4, 2006, 04:10 PM   #123
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Happy B-Day USCG

Well, just a very brief time out to wish the USCG a HAPPY BIRTHDAY. Long may your dedicated and outstanding service to the USA continue.
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Old August 4, 2006, 04:21 PM   #124
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On behalf of

The men and women, present and past including the reserve and auxilliary and their families, thanks for the birthday wish to the Coast Guard. 216 years old; the oldest sea going military service of the US.
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Old August 4, 2006, 04:47 PM   #125
CWO4USCGRET
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Up till now

I haven't taken any comments personal. That's the purpose of a discussion board - so people can discuss things rationally. Of course sometimes when someone says something and another person doesn't like it then the fur begins to fly....

Azurefly says:
Quote:
Wow. Where do you get off putting words in my mouth that I "condone the violent behavior," and would "rather let someone else potentially get harmed then [sic] make a phone call"?!

That's reckless and irresponsible of you, not to mention quite defamatory.
CWO4USCGRET says wow, first I am "Killer" now I am "Defamer." Harsh words; for expressing an opinion on the subject of calling a police officer or not. Libel, is the written form; and defined by Merriam-Webster as such:
Quote:
Main Entry: 1liĀ·bel
Pronunciation: 'lI-b&l
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, written declaration, from Anglo-French, from Latin libellus, diminutive of liber book
1 a : a written statement in which a plaintiff in certain courts sets forth the cause of action or the relief sought b archaic : a handbill especially attacking or defaming someone
2 a : a written or oral defamatory statement or representation that conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression b (1) : a statement or representation published without just cause and tending to expose another to public contempt (2) : defamation of a person by written or representational means (3) : the publication of blasphemous, treasonable, seditious, or obscene writings or pictures (4) : the act, tort, or crime of publishing such a libel
.

Although I am not an attorney, an opinion, based on the comments made by someone, about those comments isn't libel, slander, nor defamatory. Unless I am mistaken Azurefly, your comments on this forum indicate support to not call the police in this situation - for fear of as you put it:
Quote:
I want to offer to CW04 that a large part of the ambivalence that many of us civvies would have about calling the police is the crapshoot we engage in regarding whether we end up with a cop who is prosecutorially hostile to our right to carry guns, and use them for personal defense.
and then this comment too:
Quote:
Once again, what every citizen should do cannot be addressed by simply acceding to what you think they ought to do a la being so altruistic about the safety of hypothetical future victims of "Bigfoot" who may or may not even come to exist, that they expose themselves to what they perceive to be the potential for persecution and malicious prosecution by local law enforcement.
, and finally this one:
Quote:
Holy Moly -- you live in Massachusetts and you still believe it is your civic duty to put yourself and your freedom on the line knowing that the overwhelming civil authority in MA is steadfastly hostile to your right to KABA?! Talk about misplaced loyalty! You might as well tell me that I should return the dropped wallet to a guy who just robbed me, after it fell out of his pocket while he beat me!

There is such a stark disconnect between your first sentence and the rest of what you said in your post. I can barely believe that after noting all of that, you still feel that a person has an obligation to call the authorities -- when they're the same authorities that don't give YOU the benefit of any doubt when it comes to having or using a gun!
Azurefly, based on the general tenor of you comments I have quoted I surmised that you would be reluctant to call the police to report the confrontation that occurred. Not a what if or suppose that; but what WildAlaska reported. From what I read you would be more concerned about the attitude of a police officer toward you carrying a concealed weapon then the fact that someone who actually exhibited aggressive, threatening behavior going away and possibly harming someone else. Correct me if I am wrong, but that's my opinion, based on what you have written. It is neither, libelous, slanderous, nor defamatory; it is mearly an interpretation of what has already been spoken.

We could play the "what if scenario game" all night; probably figure out solutions to all of them too...I won't though; I have commented on an actual situation, suggested that the police should be called to report the aggressor, and given my logic and reasoning for it.

If a person acts in accordance with the laws of their realm (in this case, Alaska), which according to packing.orgs link, you don't even need a permit (unless the law has changed) to carry concealed and the use of deadly force (even displaying it is using it) in this case was justified (which in my opinion I would have acted the same way) then I sure wouldn't be worried about what the police would do to me...

I can guarantee you, with no uncertainty, that even if you follow the letter of the law to the [bold]T[/bold] and shoot someone, you will be taken into custody, questioned, and unless the shooting was totally bogus, released while it is investigated. You may or may not be charged with and including, murder depending on the circumstances and the bad guy (or his family) will probably file a wrongful death or injury civil suit against you. That's even if you are totally justified. What will more than likely happen is the prosecutor will investigate and say no charges, it was justifiable. If I shoot someone at work, I know I will be at home, awaiting the investigation, and since I work for the government, the civil lawsuit. Its the part of the risk associated with carrying a gun.
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