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Old July 30, 2006, 02:09 AM   #51
symr00
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Do you carry cuffs and a radio as well? (Not that carrying OC is a bad idea)
No, I don't and I have carried OC with my CCW before I was in law enforcement. You can't go pulling out your gun at every tough guy wanting to pick a fight with you. If you don't know how to defend yourself w/H2H, then OC is a decent less than lethal alternative that isn't going to get you a trip to jail.

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Because they could charge him with what, walking at someone in a parking lot?
Well, according to you and the original poster, he was doing something wrong enough to warrant using deadly force. That's why he drawed down on him, right?
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Old July 30, 2006, 02:22 AM   #52
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Well, according to you and the original poster, he was doing something wrong enough to warrant using deadly force. That's why he drawed down on him, right?
No one claimed he commited a crime, what is clear from Ken's statement is that he was in reasonable fear for his life and/or serious bodily injury. THAT is what warranted the presentation of deadly force and possibly its use had the subject not decided he had the wrong guy.

You should at least know this from your CCW class before your LE career.

In any case you cannot go around spraying people with OC without cause any more than you can shoot them, although the consequences are slightly less dire, so I fail to see your position.
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Old July 30, 2006, 04:07 AM   #53
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No one claimed he commited a crime, what is clear from Ken's statement is that he was in reasonable fear for his life and/or serious bodily injury. THAT is what warranted the presentation of deadly force and possibly its use had the subject not decided he had the wrong guy.

You should at least know this from your CCW class before your LE career.
That's why I mentioned if he is an older gentleman and feared for his life then I appologize. But pulling out a gun on an unarmed person coming at you aggressively or just looking to kick your ass is a crime. That's the law here in AZ. Maybe in CA and AK it's different.



Quote:
In any case you cannot go around spraying people with OC without cause any more than you can shoot them, although the consequences are slightly less dire, so I fail to see your position.
On the contrary, OC is a less-lethal weapon and can be used on someone intent on hurting you even if they are unarmed. It's a necessary tool IMO if you carry a concealed weapon. We're not living in some la-la land where we can draw down on every dic*head intent on starting a fight with us. This is the reality of that...

http://www.kvoa.com/Global/story.asp...&nav=menu216_2

I'd hate to see anyone's life ruined by some scumbag. Glad everything turned out ok.
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Old July 30, 2006, 07:40 AM   #54
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The guy should get a lifesaving medal or some award, because he clearly saved his life by running.
I read the link in the above post, jury was not given all the facts, hard to make a ruleing based on partial evidence

WELL DONE WA!!!!
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Old July 30, 2006, 10:36 AM   #55
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Wild,

Glad you are okay.

As for your shoot/no shoot question, I would have given him one more step after the gun was presented and then pop a round into him. Another step and he gets another round until you are out of ammo. The only Seecamps I know of are chambered for .32 acp. This is a puny round and has very little stopping power even if you are using hollow points. There are plenty of documented cases where people have been shot with a much more substantial caliber and still killed the person who shot them. If the guy had a concealed contact weapon, 10 feet is would not be nearly enough distance to stop him, especially with a .32 acp. Even without a weapon, a large guy who is intoxicated may not feel pain and may still severely injure you, if not kill you, with his bare hands. I would definately go for a head shot if the first shot COM did not stop him or at least make him reconsider.

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Old July 30, 2006, 10:37 AM   #56
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That's why I mentioned if he is an older gentleman and feared for his life then I appologize. But pulling out a gun on an unarmed person coming at you aggressively or just looking to kick your ass is a crime. That's the law here in AZ. Maybe in CA and AK it's different.
Really? If so, I'm glad I don't live in AZ. I would have done the same thing WA, BUT, if I had decided to drop him it would have been justified in the eyes of the TX law. Glad you're ok.
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Old July 30, 2006, 11:54 AM   #57
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The police are very tricky.... I probably would have called - but I am a glutton for punishment.

I can honestly see them arresting me for armed assault - than trying to find the other guy only to convince him to press charges against me - which ofcourse he will do - as well as sue me in civil court.

A great many will say "The police are not here to help you." But I can't bring myself to be that strong about it.

I look at it this way... The cops get there, they have an open mind. They find out there were 2 involved. One did nothing but walk thru a parking lot, the other presented a firearm and assaulted the first man. Since you cannot prove he had bad intent, and without evidence the police cannot believe you that he made aggresive gestures... Look at it from their eyes. Furthermore you could very likely get a cop whos anti-gun.

I don't know what I'm saying. But WA may have made the right choice, considering he is home and comfy right now, and not in a jail cell awaiting brandishing or assault charges. Just another failure of the justice system.
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Old July 30, 2006, 12:28 PM   #58
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Good job Alaska. Not all altercations require a phone call to the police. Easy for people who weren't there to give you advice I guess...
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Old July 30, 2006, 12:30 PM   #59
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That'll teach you to confuse steak sauce for your aftershave. A "huge, hairy guy" in Alaska, huh?

I've been hearing about these critters the locals like to call "bears", or some other stupid thing.....





J/K--glad you're okay. I would like to see some statistics on how many attacks are avoided just by a gun being drawn--I'd guess in many cases you don't even need to fire to defuse a situation. Kudos for keeping your head and exercising trigger discipline.
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Old July 30, 2006, 12:32 PM   #60
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But pulling out a gun on an unarmed person coming at you aggressively or just looking to kick your ass is a crime.
"Just looking to kick your ass"...this is my new favorite quote. When you choose to carry concealed, you are playing by a different set of rules. You cannot allow yourself to get into a physical altercation where your gun could be taken or control of it lost in any way. Someone "just looking to kick your ass" when you're carrying could present a real problem.

Just because it's the law, doesn't mean it's right. I conceal carry in Washington D.C. and many other places I'm not supposed to, because those places are where it's needed the most.
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Old July 30, 2006, 12:51 PM   #61
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Glad you're OK and you did right by breaking leather. However, if the other guy went and told the first cop he saw, "that guy pulled a gun on me"...

You might've had some 'splainin' to do. A complete monday morning arm chair quarterback observation.

I think I'd want my name in the "Complaintant" box and not the "subject" box if any thing came of it.

+1 for the good guys.
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Old July 30, 2006, 01:14 PM   #62
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Some of your fellers must be from "duty to retreat" states. If it is a crime or not to draw on a man who is behaving in a threatening manner is somewhat situational (have you other options with a good chance of safety?) -- but it is also governed by state law.

In Indiana, case-law since the 1800s supported the right to self-defense even in public settings, though subsequent decisions suggested disparity of force was also a factor; recent legislative action has made "no duty to retreat" quite explicit. So where I live, in WA's situation, it would be no crime at all for me to draw and aim.

Drive for a couple of hours to IL and play out the exact same scene, and I'd be committing multiple felonies -- against a poor innocent victim of circumstance.

You really have to know what the rules are before sharing your well-thought advice. Wiki tells us Alaska is considering a "stand your ground" law. Working only from news reports, it appears that if one is cornered outside one's home, armed self-defense is legal in Alaska.
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Old July 30, 2006, 01:47 PM   #63
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Wild

Late to the thread but:

I hope this will not be something to come back and haunt you. The guy knows your car, has seen you etc., etc..

I believe you need to tell a few police in the area and have them be alert for this guy.
I am not sure if police frequent your location, but I think you should have called them when it happened. Not 911 though. Call and mention the problem, tell them you pack and are now more concerned then ever.

Maybe you felt insecure in your right to have pulled a weapon. I am sure many thoughts went through your head.
I would not allow myself to become secure with this as of yet.

Awareness is the key now. IMHO

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Old July 30, 2006, 01:53 PM   #64
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My Two Cents Worth Adjusted for Inflation

I'll admit that I've just scanned most of these comments, including the original post, so I'm probably being redundant and saying something that someone has already said here before me. Nevertheless, I'd recommend contacting the police because there's a real tendency in police work to believe the first person who reports such an incident and it's not all that unusual for a bad guy to try and cover his ass by reporting that you pulled a gun on him for no good reason just in case he's ever identified.

Reporting the matter will also give the police the information necessary to increase their routine patrols in an area where some innocent person might otherwise become a potential victim. They can't solve problems they don't know about!

Final comment: The original post was so well written that the author may have missed his calling as a writer. It's far superior to anything that's ever seen written up in a police report, but, again, someone mentioned something called a "BS meter"?
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Old July 30, 2006, 03:53 PM   #65
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To those advocating "duty to retreat"

please re-read his original post. He said:

Quote:
on the left an empty space, then a car, the front of the car up against the wall of my building. ... I backpedal and run into the car next to me on the left...so Im trapped (really no place to go anyway but forward)...
Duty to retreat or not: HE COULDN'T! This point should never have come up, since he stated from the beginning that he could not retreat. End of discussion before it should have even been mentioned.

It really ticks me off when people pop off with opinions without bothering to read the original post.
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symr00 -

You're relatively new here, so probably haven't read much of WA's previous posts, and so don't know much about him, but if you had read the entire thread, you would have caught Dwight55s comment (post #21) that WA is at least 30 years older than most streetfighting mugging perps of the type originally portrayed.

WA also stated in the first post, second paragraph ...
Quote:
he wasnt showing a weapon but he was huge and on something and while I feel I can handle myself (despite my advancing years, pot belly and wimpy size) . . . and was basically UNABLE to retreat (I was backed into a car)
and, third paragraph
Quote:
... and despite of the fact that I look like a runty ungroomed rabbi, for some reason (or so I am told by my coworkers) I look either crazy or (as one guy told me) a "grandpa with an attitude"...
So yeah, from the above two selections, WA is small ("runty") and older ("advancing years" and "grandpa"). (No offense intended, WA.)

Older = less able to flee. Smaller = less able to fight. Duty to retreat = discussed above.


CPAdonerantingfornowSPR

Last edited by cpaspr; July 31, 2006 at 12:22 PM.
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Old July 30, 2006, 04:42 PM   #66
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Wild, seems to be a few differents opinions on how you handled your situation. But, you know what? I just doesn't matter. It does matter however that you are safe and unhurt. I think most people would have done the same. Others should put themselves in your shoes before they comment.
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Old July 31, 2006, 12:13 PM   #67
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Well my weekend wasn't as adrenalin-filled as WA's, but it was busy nonetheless. Heres the weird part. I was getting home a few minutes before WA's incident, and I saw the person (or someone who matched taht description) walking down the street trying to flag down traffic. He was quite large.

Knowing that size disparity, and given the cornered scenario, about the only other thing i could think of that WA could have done is maybe give him a faceful of light. Thats what the offhand is for, especially when drawing out a peashooter.

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Old July 31, 2006, 04:47 PM   #68
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sounds like you handled it well. so here is my question

where can i go to look and see where is is legal to OC i looked on packing.org but didn't see anyhting on OC, i would rather CC but nebraska dosen't have yet supposed to pass 1/1/07.


and also where can i go to find out the legalities on drawing my weapon when it is acceptable

thanks for the help guys
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Old July 31, 2006, 04:56 PM   #69
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just catching up on this thread and i don't have much else to offer, but glad you're alright and that it worked out without either of you getting more than a scare. whether this guy who would attack a stranger deserves to wander the streets another day is open to debate, but as you noted, it's good you didn't need to go through the hassle of shooting.
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Old July 31, 2006, 05:52 PM   #70
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With a Rabbi like you, I think I would be at services every week.
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Old July 31, 2006, 06:14 PM   #71
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about the only other thing i could think of that WA could have done is maybe give him a faceful of light. Thats what the offhand is for, especially when drawing out a peashooter.
I didnt have my light unfortunately, however, after working a few concerts where the youths are doped up, the lights really wouldnt stop a drugged out freakazoid.

Unless I use the 500 Lumen M6

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Old July 31, 2006, 06:23 PM   #72
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True it might not have stopped him but it would have bought you an extra second. Then again, he wouldn't have seen the muzzle of your gun and might have taken that extra two steps.

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Old July 31, 2006, 06:32 PM   #73
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OC is always a good thing to have. Here in AZ Harold Fish was walking in the woods when 3 dogs starting to charge him. He fired a warning shot and the dogs fled. The dog handler charged at Fish threatening to kill him. Fish fired three times, killing the handler. The bottom line is that a jury convicted him of second degree murder. To me it seemed like a cut and dry case of self defense.
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Old July 31, 2006, 06:34 PM   #74
Denny Hansen
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That's why I mentioned if he is an older gentleman and feared for his life then I appologize. But pulling out a gun on an unarmed person coming at you aggressively or just looking to kick your ass is a crime. That's the law here in AZ. Maybe in CA and AK it's different.
Uh, not quite right. If you brandish a weapon and you are not in fear of your life, you may be arrested for assault. That was not the case here, and assault, brandishing, threatening and intimidating, disorderly conduct, etc. etc would not be applicable.

Just glad you’re OK, Ken.

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Old July 31, 2006, 07:00 PM   #75
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Thanks Denny and to all who wished me well...

I want to emphasize (and all this was going through my mind as it was happening) that I honestly was trapped and this guy did not look "normal".....I know from long experience (and you cops out there can do this too) what someone looks like under the influence and this guy WAS under the influence...coupled with his aggressive behavior and I honestly beleive that I was going to be subjected to unlawful physical force...dont forget too I was in MY parking lot...

Alaska stutes provide that you can used deadly force "he person reasonably believes the use of deadly force is necessary for self defense against death, serious physical injury, kidnapping, sexual assault in the first degree, sexual assault in the second degree, or robbery in any degree."...Contrast that to places where deadly force is only authoirzed to meet deadly force (like NY)

Heres Alaskas definition of serious injury:

(A)physical injury caused by an act performed under circumstances that create a substantial risk of death; or

(B) physical injury that causes serious and protracted disfigurement, protracted impairment of health, protracted loss or impairment of the function of a body member or organ, or that unlawfully terminates a pregnancy;

One punch from this guy or more than one would have been serious.....

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