French shotgun?

KBrown · July 25, 2006, 02:39 AM

Hi all,

I inherited what looks to be an old French side-by-side shotgun from my Dad. I'm curious to find out exactly what it is (manufacturer/make/model) and maybe a rough estimate as to its value. (A good idea for insurance purposes if it's worth anything.)

The markings on the bottom of the barrel (from top of barrel downward) are:

- MA
- St. Etienne 18,2
- 65
- 822
- Choke Rectifie (in an arc)
- (crown symbol over the letters "PT")
- RESSUE ET RETREMPE
- ACIERDECARBURE AU BOIS (hard to read this text)
- (some indistinct symbol inside of an oval)

On the metal inside the breech of the stock (the watertable I think it's called?) there are the following marks:

- (crown symbol over the letters "PT")
- 822

The metal in the breech area has lots of fine, ornate scrollwork on it. It looks very much like the Darne shotgun listed at the top of this page: http://www.gunshop.com/darne.htm. The difference is that the metal and scrollwork on my shotgun is straight up and down in front of the triggers, whereas the metal on the Darne shotguns goes back over the top of the triggers. The barrel opens downward by rotating a large thumb lever on top.

I hope this info helps. If need be, I can take some pictures of it if that would help identify it.

Thanks!

**James K** · July 25, 2006, 10:27 PM

I can tell you that it was made in St. Etienne, France, a major gun making center. It is 12 gauge (18.2mm), chambered for 2 1/2" (65 mm) shells. (Modern American 12 gauge shotshells are 2 3/4" and should not be fired in a 2 1/2" chamber.)

The crown and "PT" is the standard St. Etienne smokeless powder proof mark.

I can't help with the other marks, but maybe someone else can.

Jim

johnbt · July 26, 2006, 08:22 AM

ACIER DECARBURE - steel decarbonized

AU BOIS = with wood

Okay, my last French class was in 1969, but I think this is right.

Choke Rectifie - choke regulated/adjusted ?

RESSUE ET RETREMPE - sweat and retempers <= Google translation

I cheated on this one.

John

(edited for spelling - the English words of all things)

mete · July 26, 2006, 10:17 AM

John, that doesn't make metallurgical sense. Perhaps it's Acier de carbure au bois -steel of wood carbon [ charcoal ] ? Let me do some checking.

johnbt · July 26, 2006, 02:28 PM

I was thinking along the lines of decarbonized using a wood or charcoal fire...instead of coal or peat or old phone books or whatever else they used to burn back then.

So off I go surfing. The e-gunparts forum has two answers to a question about decarbonizing. The first is that the manufacturer uses it to mean what they like. The second is:

http://www.muzzleblasts.com/vol4no3/...s/mbo43-3.html "Basically, that is homogenous wrought iron that has had excess carbon burned out. Link above is a good article on making of gun metal in the 1800's at the Remington forge. I would check with Remington before firing this with ANYTHING- schrapnel gets SO personal. Good luck- and please let us all know what you find."

John

mete · July 26, 2006, 04:39 PM

John , that's an excellent reference ,I'm saving that one ! It does clarify things but you do have to understand the whole process and terminology.

Dela-Where? · April 27, 2009, 12:49 PM

I have nearly the same shotgun as KBrown!

The markings on the bottom of the barrel (from top of barrel downward) are:

- UMA (though my research says the M is really Antlers indicating that it's rated for hunting.)
- St. Etienne 18,2 (there's an insignia in front of this though I cannot make it out.)
- 65
- Choke Rectifie (in an arc) Superieur (underneath)
- (crown symbol over the letters "PT") with some kind of X looking insignia under it...
- ACIER COPMPRIME over a cannon
- RESSUE ET RETREMPE (under the cannon)
- An Oval with 3 stars in it

On the metal inside the breech of the stock (the watertable I think it's called?) there are the following marks:

- (crown symbol over the letters "PT")

There is also a 4 digit number 2119 with a sideways 1 after it (stock number?), and a 5 digit serial number in the low 67000 range; these are on all parts of the gun.

coolforgot · September 2, 2010, 02:29 PM

Could the P.T undercrown stand for Phillipe Regina ?
I have a similar French S/S hammers with
St Etienne
L50
65
17.0
I take it it's a 21/2" chamber ?
what would the equivelent 'bore' be ?
I have seen the following comparisson on Wikipidia, but still unclear ?
14 17.60
16 16.83

cheers, coolforgot

SDC · September 2, 2010, 04:10 PM

The "PT" stands for "Poudre T" ("Powder T"), which was the type of smokeless propellant they used in the proofing test; like the Belgians, the French specified that the powder used had to be marked on the proofed firearm.

coolforgot · September 3, 2010, 09:32 AM

Mine definately has a P R under a Crown

what would the equivelent 'bore' be ?
I have seen the following comparisson on Wikipidia, but still unclear ?
14 bore = 17.60
16 bore = 16.83 ?

I have 17 stamped on Barrels ?

Jim Watson · September 3, 2010, 10:27 AM

17 mm is probably the diameter at the choke of a 16 gauge.

PetahW · September 3, 2010, 11:25 AM

[an old French side-by-side shotgun from my Dad.]

[I'm curious to find out exactly what it is (manufacturer/make/model)]

FWIW, w/o a trip to France, AND a talk with older/knowledgeable gun people there, that may be an insurmountable task - since the reason guns like these were unmarked by a maker is that they actually had no single maker.
These type guns, referred to as "guild guns" today, were each made by several different entities (people/families/small partnerships/etc) - one of which was most likely an expert barrel maker, another an action maker/actioneer, and yet another a stockmaker.

All the "marks" are the legal marks required in Europe's various countries (France in this case), to both "prove" that the gun was made well enough to fire/use, in some case what it was made of, and to explain what ammo it took in the event that somebody who happened across one didn't know.

[ and maybe a rough estimate as to its value.]

Guild guns, some very ornate indeed, generally have low collector attraction, with most of their value lying in their utility - which should always be verified by a competant gunsmith prior to use.

.

oneounceload · September 3, 2010, 03:48 PM

Quote:

FWIW, w/o a trip to France, AND a talk with older/knowledgeable gun people there, that may be an insurmountable task - since the reason guns like these were unmarked by a maker is that they actually had no single maker.
These type guns, referred to as "guild guns" today, were each made by several different entities (people/families/small partnerships/etc) - one of which was most likely an expert barrel maker, another an action maker/actioneer, and yet another a stockmaker.

All the "marks" are the legal marks required in Europe's various countries (France in this case), to both "prove" that the gun was made well enough to fire/use, in some case what it was made of, and to explain what ammo it took in the event that somebody who happened across one didn't know.

[ and maybe a rough estimate as to its value.]

Guild guns, some very ornate indeed, generally have low collector attraction, with most of their value lying in their utility - which should always be verified by a competant gunsmith prior to use.

.

Always interesting because many of the English "BEST" guns were made the same way - a lone soul in one hamlet made locks, another the action, another the stock, etc..........and then they were "finished" by the name brand house and sold as such - yet THOSE guns have HUGE collector value......

**James K** · September 3, 2010, 03:53 PM

I am sure there are still interested people, but note that the thread is over four years old.

Jim

PetahW · September 3, 2010, 07:42 PM

Yep - a good, old-fashioned zombie thread...........

BTW - Since "English" is the official language in the US, and France hasn't exactly been the best of friends with the US in over 40 years - everyone gets one guess which one there's less collector interest in: French shotguns, or British ones.

.

1981cj7 · November 23, 2011, 03:30 PM

I too have one of these shotguns and mine says Rose' a' Villenauxe. I'm interested in the maker, or what to call it? It is a great looking gun and @
5 # 13 oz. it is a grouse hunters dream. What should one pay for a gun like this? I guess the more you pay for it the more it's worth. lol

July 25, 2006, 02:39 AM	#1
KBrown Junior Member Join Date: July 25, 2006 Posts: 1	French shotgun? Hi all, I inherited what looks to be an old French side-by-side shotgun from my Dad. I'm curious to find out exactly what it is (manufacturer/make/model) and maybe a rough estimate as to its value. (A good idea for insurance purposes if it's worth anything.) The markings on the bottom of the barrel (from top of barrel downward) are: - MA - St. Etienne 18,2 - 65 - 822 - Choke Rectifie (in an arc) - (crown symbol over the letters "PT") - RESSUE ET RETREMPE - ACIERDECARBURE AU BOIS (hard to read this text) - (some indistinct symbol inside of an oval) On the metal inside the breech of the stock (the watertable I think it's called?) there are the following marks: - (crown symbol over the letters "PT") - 822 The metal in the breech area has lots of fine, ornate scrollwork on it. It looks very much like the Darne shotgun listed at the top of this page: http://www.gunshop.com/darne.htm. The difference is that the metal and scrollwork on my shotgun is straight up and down in front of the triggers, whereas the metal on the Darne shotguns goes back over the top of the triggers. The barrel opens downward by rotating a large thumb lever on top. I hope this info helps. If need be, I can take some pictures of it if that would help identify it. Thanks!

July 25, 2006, 10:27 PM	#2
James K Staff Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 16,445	I can tell you that it was made in St. Etienne, France, a major gun making center. It is 12 gauge (18.2mm), chambered for 2 1/2" (65 mm) shells. (Modern American 12 gauge shotshells are 2 3/4" and should not be fired in a 2 1/2" chamber.) The crown and "PT" is the standard St. Etienne smokeless powder proof mark. I can't help with the other marks, but maybe someone else can. Jim __________________ Jim K

April 27, 2009, 12:49 PM	#7
Dela-Where? Junior Member Join Date: April 27, 2009 Posts: 1	French shotgun? I have nearly the same shotgun as KBrown! The markings on the bottom of the barrel (from top of barrel downward) are: - UMA (though my research says the M is really Antlers indicating that it's rated for hunting.) - St. Etienne 18,2 (there's an insignia in front of this though I cannot make it out.) - 65 - Choke Rectifie (in an arc) Superieur (underneath) - (crown symbol over the letters "PT") with some kind of X looking insignia under it... - ACIER COPMPRIME over a cannon - RESSUE ET RETREMPE (under the cannon) - An Oval with 3 stars in it On the metal inside the breech of the stock (the watertable I think it's called?) there are the following marks: - (crown symbol over the letters "PT") There is also a 4 digit number 2119 with a sideways 1 after it (stock number?), and a 5 digit serial number in the low 67000 range; these are on all parts of the gun.

September 2, 2010, 02:29 PM	#8
coolforgot Junior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Posts: 2	French Lessons ? Could the P.T undercrown stand for Phillipe Regina ? I have a similar French S/S hammers with St Etienne L50 65 17.0 I take it it's a 21/2" chamber ? what would the equivelent 'bore' be ? I have seen the following comparisson on Wikipidia, but still unclear ? 14 17.60 16 16.83 cheers, coolforgot

September 2, 2010, 04:10 PM	#9
SDC Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2001 Location: People's Republic of Kanada Posts: 1,576	The "PT" stands for "Poudre T" ("Powder T"), which was the type of smokeless propellant they used in the proofing test; like the Belgians, the French specified that the powder used had to be marked on the proofed firearm. __________________ Gun control in Canada: making the streets safer for rapists, muggers, and other violent criminals since 1936.

July 26, 2006, 08:22 AM	#3
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,005	ACIER DECARBURE - steel decarbonized AU BOIS = with wood Okay, my last French class was in 1969, but I think this is right. Choke Rectifie - choke regulated/adjusted ? RESSUE ET RETREMPE - sweat and retempers <= Google translation I cheated on this one. John (edited for spelling - the English words of all things)

July 26, 2006, 10:17 AM	#4
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 4,940	John, that doesn't make metallurgical sense. Perhaps it's Acier de carbure au bois -steel of wood carbon [ charcoal ] ? Let me do some checking.

July 26, 2006, 02:28 PM	#5
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,005	I was thinking along the lines of decarbonized using a wood or charcoal fire...instead of coal or peat or old phone books or whatever else they used to burn back then. So off I go surfing. The e-gunparts forum has two answers to a question about decarbonizing. The first is that the manufacturer uses it to mean what they like. The second is: http://www.muzzleblasts.com/vol4no3/...s/mbo43-3.html "Basically, that is homogenous wrought iron that has had excess carbon burned out. Link above is a good article on making of gun metal in the 1800's at the Remington forge. I would check with Remington before firing this with ANYTHING- schrapnel gets SO personal. Good luck- and please let us all know what you find." John

July 26, 2006, 04:39 PM	#6
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 4,940	John , that's an excellent reference ,I'm saving that one ! It does clarify things but you do have to understand the whole process and terminology.

September 3, 2010, 09:32 AM	#10
coolforgot Junior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Posts: 2	Mine definately has a P R under a Crown what would the equivelent 'bore' be ? I have seen the following comparisson on Wikipidia, but still unclear ? 14 bore = 17.60 16 bore = 16.83 ? I have 17 stamped on Barrels ?

September 3, 2010, 10:27 AM	#11
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 9,674	17 mm is probably the diameter at the choke of a 16 gauge.

September 3, 2010, 11:25 AM	#12
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 3,295	[an old French side-by-side shotgun from my Dad.] [I'm curious to find out exactly what it is (manufacturer/make/model)] FWIW, w/o a trip to France, AND a talk with older/knowledgeable gun people there, that may be an insurmountable task - since the reason guns like these were unmarked by a maker is that they actually had no single maker. These type guns, referred to as "guild guns" today, were each made by several different entities (people/families/small partnerships/etc) - one of which was most likely an expert barrel maker, another an action maker/actioneer, and yet another a stockmaker. All the "marks" are the legal marks required in Europe's various countries (France in this case), to both "prove" that the gun was made well enough to fire/use, in some case what it was made of, and to explain what ammo it took in the event that somebody who happened across one didn't know. [ and maybe a rough estimate as to its value.] Guild guns, some very ornate indeed, generally have low collector attraction, with most of their value lying in their utility - which should always be verified by a competant gunsmith prior to use. .

September 3, 2010, 03:53 PM	#14
James K Staff Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 16,445	I am sure there are still interested people, but note that the thread is over four years old. Jim __________________ Jim K

September 3, 2010, 07:42 PM	#15
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 3,295	Yep - a good, old-fashioned zombie thread........... BTW - Since "English" is the official language in the US, and France hasn't exactly been the best of friends with the US in over 40 years - everyone gets one guess which one there's less collector interest in: French shotguns, or British ones. .

November 23, 2011, 03:30 PM	#16
1981cj7 Junior Member Join Date: November 23, 2011 Posts: 2	French Shotgun???????? I too have one of these shotguns and mine says Rose' a' Villenauxe. I'm interested in the maker, or what to call it? It is a great looking gun and @ 5 # 13 oz. it is a grouse hunters dream. What should one pay for a gun like this? I guess the more you pay for it the more it's worth. lol