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Old June 7, 2000, 10:16 PM   #1
Cliff
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Have any of you put a chrono on your M2 ball or match reloads?

If so, I'm interested in your muzzle velocity. The WHY of my question is best explained at: http://www.thefiringline.com/NonCGI/...ML/002857.html

For some reason, I keep thinking that ~2,500 FPS at muzzle (assuming 47 grains of IMR 4895 and a 168 gr. bullet) is a "safe" load for the Garand as well as providing decent match accuracy.

Federal's Gold Medal 168 gr. BTHP (per Federal) clocks in at 2,700 FPS at muzzle.

Is this too "hot"? Or is my question so off the wall as to deserve to be tossed into the proverbial "cocked hat."?

Rolling my own in the near future is a given.

TIA.

Cliff
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Old June 8, 2000, 12:47 PM   #2
sundog
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Okay, Cliff, let's see if I can help a little. While I do not consider myself an "expert" on the M1, I do shoot one regularly in matches. I read the link. Here's the deal, it's not chamber pressure or velocity that kills M1's, it peak pressure and curve. The gas port is at the muzzle, and using the wrong powder(usually too slow) or charge will result in too high pressure at the port, thus damaging the op rod, and possible other parts. I reload all my ammo, and I am very careful not to exceed published standards, which btw, will make these fine old gals sing just fine (I consistently shoot expert). I suggest you get a copy of the NRA Pamphlet on the M1 which is a series of reprinted articles. Contained therein is one article that deals exclusively with load data. It will help. As far as factory loads, can't help, sorry. I roll my own. sundog
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Old June 8, 2000, 02:21 PM   #3
Southla1
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Cliff, that load should be safe in the M1 Garand both from a safety standpoint and the standpoint about not damaging the op rod or getting the old girl out of time. The military specs for the match round is as follows:

CARTRIDGE: Cal .30 Match, M72

WEAPON: Rifle, U.S. Caliber .30 M1 National Match

BALLISTICS:

VELOCITY 2640 + - 30 FPS at 78 feet
PRESSURE 50,000 psi Max Average
ACCURACY 3.5" mean Radius Max Ave at 600 Yards
CARTRIDGE 425 grains approx.
CASE 200 + - 2 grains
BULLET 175.5 + - .3 grains
PRIMER 5 to 5.6 grains FA961 or FA 1023 lead styphnate
PROPELLANT IMR4895, Single base, Tubular 50 Grains
IDENTIFICATION "MATCH" OR "NM" Stamped on head of case.

This is the US Military spec for the M72 match.

Your load is 3 grains of powder less and approx 7 grains of bullet weight less.

Personally one of my favorite loads for the Garand is a Winchester 147 grain FMJBT over 47 grains of IMR 4895 in a LC-68 Case. I cannot be responsible for the above loads but they are safe in my 2 30-06 rifles, both the Garand and the Springfield.
PS: I forgot to add that I have yet to chrony these loads, when I do I will let you know!
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[This message has been edited by Southla1 (edited June 08, 2000).]
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Old June 8, 2000, 02:44 PM   #4
sundog
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Cliff, one other consideration on factory loads is the primary. Too soft a primer can be a contributing factor to a slam fire. This is why I use CCI exclusively for M1 reloads. sundog
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Old June 8, 2000, 06:48 PM   #5
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EIE YIE YIE!!!!!!!! You are so right sundog.....I forgot to mention that CCI's are the hardest primers and resist the inertia of the firing pin.
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Old June 8, 2000, 06:48 PM   #6
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EIE YIE YIE!!!!!!!! You are so right sundog.....I forgot to mention that CCI's are the hardest primers and resist the inertia of the firing pin.

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Old June 8, 2000, 06:50 PM   #7
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Speaking of slamfires my computer just slamfired my last post!!

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Old June 8, 2000, 10:40 PM   #8
Cliff
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Ahhhh.... great info. Thanks, guys!

sundog - Thanks for mentioning peak pressure. More pressure exerted on the gas cylinder piston = more op rod stress. "Curve" is beyond my very limited knowledge. I have the NRA M1 reload info. I'll see if Federal will be willing to divulge their powder type and weight.

Carlyle - Thanks for the great ballistics nitty gritty. The brass in my Talon ammo are stamped LC 67, LC 68 and LC 69. I assume this translates to Lake City 1967, 1968 and 1969? One of the reasons that I bought so much of the Talon is that I wanted the brass.

Oh! Carlyle - you did not slamfire... you double tapped.

Cliff
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Old June 8, 2000, 11:13 PM   #9
alan
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Cliff:

Re your question, you wrote in part:

For some reason, I keep thinking that ~2,500 FPS at muzzle (assuming 47 grains of IMR 4895 and a 168 gr. bullet) is a "safe" load for the Garand as well as providing decent match accuracy.

As memory serves, the last 30-06 Match Ammunition loaded at Lake City contained 47.5 grains 4895 (non-canister grade), meaning NOT the same 4895 as you bought at your local store, and used the FA Match bullet, nominal weight of which was 173 grain. Usually they were a couple of grains heavier, and a little over .308" in diameter. Advertized velocity was 2640'/sec, and in most rifles, this ammunition shot well, with no signs of over pressure. Again, if memory serves, chamber pressure was about 46-47,000 pounds, though I could be wrong.



[This message has been edited by alan (edited June 09, 2000).]
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Old June 9, 2000, 08:57 PM   #10
Cliff
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Alan - Is there a significant difference between canister grade and non-canister grade 4895?

Just curious, and thanks for the info on the LC match ammo.

Cliff
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Old June 10, 2000, 06:29 AM   #11
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cliff:
Is there a significant difference between canister grade and non-canister grade 4895? [/quote]


Yes there can be enough of a difference to make things dangerous if you are loading on the top end of the scale. Surplus powders (non canister) may be used safely but ALWAYS start at the starting load.


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Old June 10, 2000, 08:54 AM   #12
Patrick Graham
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Here's my crono results for 173 gr LC Match ammo, lot number 12253 out of my 43 Garand.
2583, 2533, 2505, 2506, 2514. fps.

Numbers seemed low so I did a sanity check on the crono.

49 gr IMR4895, 150gr FMJ, LC brass, WLR. Out of a pristine 1917.
2775, 2650, 2747, 2701, 2706. fps.
Right where they should be.

Same load, 49 gr imr4895, 150gr FMJ, LC Brass, WLR. Out of my 43 Garand.
2568, 2594, 2663, 2610, 2586. fps

What a difference a shorter barrel and a gas port makes.


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Old June 10, 2000, 12:59 PM   #13
Southla1
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Patrick, It could be bore wear also. Hornady ran a test a few years back with the same barrel and the same load. They fired it new and then again after 2000 rounds and there was about 250 fps difference. It made a lot more difference than I thought. I am not certain how much the gas port would hurt you on a Garand seeing that it is so near the muzzle. I think a short barrel would make a lot bigger differnce.

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Old June 11, 2000, 08:50 AM   #14
Patrick Graham
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This 43 Garand has seen a lot of rounds, bore wear sure could be a factor. It's going in for a new barrel as soon as my car is paid off.
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Old June 11, 2000, 12:32 PM   #15
Southla1
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When I "re-retire" after this census is over, I am going to try to run an experiment with my M1 Garand and my 03A3 Springfield. It won't be purely scientific becuase the 03A3 Barrel was cut back to just behind the front sight dovetail, leaving the barrel 22 1/2 inches. The Springfield was new when I acquired it but has a few thousand through it lol. The Garand I acquired from CMP and even though it is used (SA March 1945)the barrel (Original I think, because its dated 3/45) shows little wear. Muzzle is tight and rifling sharp, clean, and bright, TE just a tad over 2. I am going to take different batches of ammo both reloads, commercial, and military ball, and chrony em in both guns. If I get to do it (after checking out the fish in the Atchafalaya Basin and painting the house and doing other honeydo's) I will post the results here for all to see.

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Old June 11, 2000, 12:32 PM   #16
Southla1
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When I "re-retire" after this census is over, I am going to try to run an experiment with my M1 Garand and my 03A3 Springfield. It won't be purely scientific becuase the 03A3 Barrel was cut back to just behind the front sight dovetail, leaving the barrel 22 1/2 inches. The Springfield was new when I acquired it but has a few thousand through it lol. The Garand I acquired from CMP and even though it is used (SA March 1945)the barrel (Original I think, because its dated 3/45) shows little wear. Muzzle is tight and rifling sharp, clean, and bright, TE just a tad over 2. I am going to take different batches of ammo both reloads, commercial, and military ball, and chrony em in both guns. If I get to do it (after checking out the fish in the Atchafalaya Basin and painting the house and doing other honeydo's) I will post the results here for all to see.

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Old June 11, 2000, 01:30 PM   #17
Southla1
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When I "re-retire" when this census supervisors job is over. I am going to run a test (after checking out the fish in the
Atchafalaya Basin and after the list of honeydo's that grows longer by the day ). I am going to take my 03A3 Springfield and my M1 Garand and fire in both commercial, Military ball, and handloads, and chronograph same. It will not be purely scientific because the Springfield's barrel i cut back to just behind the frontsight dovetail. That means it has a 22 1/2 inch barrel. This rifle was new when i acquired it but has had several thousand rounds through it. The Garand I acquired from CMP and although it is used (SA March 1945) it has the original barrel (I think that because its dated 3/45)and, the barrel is in great shape, the muzzle is tight, rifling is clean, sharp, and bright, and the TE is just over 2. I know that unless both barrels were the same length, and new, it is not comparing apples to apples, but i still think the results may proove to be interesting. When (IF :rolleyes I get this done I will post the results here for all to view.

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Old June 11, 2000, 01:30 PM   #18
Southla1
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When I "re-retire" when this census supervisors job is over. I am going to run a test (after checking out the fish in the
Atchafalaya Basin and after the list of honeydo's that grows longer by the day ). I am going to take my 03A3 Springfield and my M1 Garand and fire in both commercial, Military ball, and handloads, and chronograph same. It will not be purely scientific because the Springfield's barrel i cut back to just behind the frontsight dovetail. That means it has a 22 1/2 inch barrel. This rifle was new when i acquired it but has had several thousand rounds through it. The Garand I acquired from CMP and although it is used (SA March 1945) it has the original barrel (I think that because its dated 3/45)and, the barrel is in great shape, the muzzle is tight, rifling is clean, sharp, and bright, and the TE is just over 2. I know that unless both barrels were the same length, and new, it is not comparing apples to apples, but i still think the results may proove to be interesting. When (IF :rolleyes I get this done I will post the results here for all to view.

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Old June 11, 2000, 01:34 PM   #19
Southla1
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Don't ask me what happened and why 4 of em were posted ask this damn computer!!!!!! It was not ther and I retyped it and it wouldnt go then blam it went full auto and popped off 4 posts

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Old June 11, 2000, 01:36 PM   #20
Southla1
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Don't ask me what happened and why 4 of em were posted ask this damn computer!!!!!! It was not ther and I retyped it and it wouldnt go then blam it went full auto and popped off 4 posts

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Old June 11, 2000, 09:50 PM   #21
Cliff
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Thanks, guys! Patrick - thank you for taking the time to post your chrono figures. Interesting comparison between the M1 and the '17.

Carlyle - Thanks for clarifying the difference between canister and non-canister. Fortunately, my approach to these matters is to start conservatively and work from there.

Re-retire??!? Geez... can't wait to have the opportunity to experience THAT! After 28 years in the corporate world, I feel like the Frank Sinatra character chasing the train in "Von Ryan's Express."

Cliff
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Old June 12, 2000, 12:48 PM   #22
Bill Hebert
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Here are the results fro my range trip yesterday. Fired from a CMP Garrand (non-tricked) as-is. 147gr "pulled" NM.
45 grains IMR4895
2452
2505
2470
2531
2495
2535
2467
That's what I shot before others at the range started complaining about the noise. Went back to shooting my 40 cal. Hope this helps Bill
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Old June 12, 2000, 07:41 PM   #23
Southla1
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Bill, those figures seem to be in the ball park for a 147 grain bullet over 45 grains of IMR-4895, I don't have a manual right at hand but will check. Speaking of ball park (as in Rosenblatt Stadium) How bout them Tigers? (and them Ragin Cajuns too!!)

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