The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old July 16, 2006, 12:48 PM   #51
Desertscout1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 7, 2004
Location: NM
Posts: 421
I haven't read all of this thread but it seems like most think like I do. I see nothing wrong with what the author wrote excet that I would not carry an empty chamber.

About warnings...
If the attack is imminent but not actually in progress, a warning may be justified and logical.
If thye attack IS in progress, as in "immediate", one should present to CoM and stop the threat.

We teach very much the same thing here but are not quite as conservative.
__________________
Desertscout
Southwest Shooting Authority
Colts and Kimbers are what you show your friends.
Glocks are what you show your enemies.
Desertscout1 is offline  
Old July 16, 2006, 12:49 PM   #52
Capt Charlie
Staff
 
Join Date: March 24, 2005
Location: Steubenville, OH
Posts: 4,310
There have been several threads addressing this in the past, and this one seems no different. Folks seem strongly polarized in their opinions, with few wavering from their beliefs.

One thing few seem to consider is the fluidity and difference in circumstances of each and every situation. Anytime we consider a scenario here, it must, by nature, be static. By that, I mean that we make the surrounding environment stand still, and we force the actors into pre-established roles and actions, so that we can dissect the results and state our responses. It can't be helped.

Consider watching a movie. The scene will play out as it will; you can't change it by your actions.

Real life situations, however, are dynamic, ever changing. Second by second things change; environment, lighting, cover, actions of non-combatants, and of course, both the actions of the BG's and you. No two situations are the same.

Along with a win-at-all-costs attitude, the most important factor in being able to survive an armed encounter is the ability to quickly analyze both your surrounding environment and the actions of your assailant(s), and then re-analyze, second by second, and react accordingly. This is true, situational awareness.

We must never plan our responses in such a way that they can't be changed in a split second. This includes drawing a weapon up to the point of firing. At the point you've made the decision to draw, the circumstances have dictated that it's necessary to deploy deadly force, and you are in the mindset to fire. A split second later, the circumstances may change (BG drops his weapon, etc.) and you have to be able to analyze the change, and change your actions accordingly. In this case, it means de-escalating your response from firing to a point/aim and verbal commands only. This is expected of law enforcement officers, and is the primary reason we are trained in shoot / don't shoot scenarios. It's also expected of armed citizens.

To say that, once you draw, you must shoot, is locking yourself into a static mindset. Not only can that place you in a legal and moral dilemma, it can also reduce your ability to survive by reducing your ability to adapt.

Train, and train hard, but never train so that your actions become mechanical only. Self defense is a thinking man's game .
__________________
TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does your post make you?

I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do.

--Capt. Charlie
Capt Charlie is offline  
Old July 16, 2006, 12:59 PM   #53
cgraham
Member
 
Join Date: September 18, 2005
Posts: 47
Learning from Sum1's experience

I'd like to comment on Sum1's account, because it touches on several common issues that are frequently discussed here.

The Original Article cited: "Don't shoot to protect your wallet. Only shoot to protect yourself." (Agreed); AND "Do not issue any warnings; (Disagree) you should not be shooting unless the situation is very grave". Agree.


Sum1_Special: "Last year I was mugged in a parking garage, I was carrying a 22 pistol. The robber had a knife, he was about 4-5 feet away and I reached for my wallet but pulled out the pistol from my back pocket, pointed it at him, and yelled. He ran. confrontation defused, no police, no problems."


The citation says "don't SHOOT to protect your wallet. Only shoot to protect yourself". I agree. What was Sum doing? He was in fear of his life and preparing to defend himself. It has nothing to do with robbery deterrence; theft of the wallet was merely the perp's immediate motive.


I think Sum's situation was this: He was not immediately under attack, but was been threatened with attack; he cannot know if the threat will be followed through, so must prepare for it. The 3 criteria for self defense are met: Means, Opportunity and Intent (intent at least implied - "if you don't give me the wallet, I'll use the knife").

Sum was fortunate in that he was not immediately attacked, was able to draw and turn the tables. He clearly exercised self-control, and drew WITH THE INTENT OF SHOOTING IF NECESSARY. When the perp ran, the 3 criteria no longer held, and Sum was able to secure his weapon.

I do not believe this is a case of brandishing (drawing to threaten), it is a case of drawing for self protection in the face of imminent danger. There may be issues of jurisdiction as to whether he should draw or just hand over the wallet and hope the perp goes away, but usually an imminent threat with a deadly weapon is considered adequate reason for an armed response". Note I said "armed response", not "shoot". If the perp presses the attack, shoot; if he retreats, don't. One can't know what the perp might do if you offer no resistance. If he attacks you on presentation of your weapon, he almost certainly had further plans for you after taking the wallet. So to my mind, drawing for a defensive purpose is fully justified in this situation. Shooting is not, unless an attack is pressed.

Having read many of these scenarios, I have come to the conclusion that "If you draw, you must shoot" is quite incorrect; it should be "If you draw you must be PREPARED to shoot. I have read that over 95% of draws are resolved without an attack, because the BG backs down on his (presumably) lethal threat. If you have the time and opportunity to give a warning/command, I think it is wise to do so, not only to emphasize your command of the situation, but to show you made every effort to avoid a shoot, in case it comes to that.

If you can't get the drop on the perp as Sum did, it's altogether another ball game.

I think there are many instances where it would be wise to draw, sometimes descreetly, in order to ensure that the perp does not get the advantage over you.

I don't endorse the article particularly: it is a good starting point for leaning the business, but not the end.

I believe this incident SHOULD be reported to the police; I can't see how Sum did anything wrong. In fact, Sum, congratulations for handling it well! Again, wisdom of reporting might depend on the jurisdiction and unrelated circumstances. General Rule: call before someone else tries to put you in the wrong.

C
__________________
Seeking Knowledge, Hoping for Wisdom

Last edited by cgraham; July 16, 2006 at 02:11 PM.
cgraham is offline  
Old July 16, 2006, 01:54 PM   #54
Skyguy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 13, 2005
Posts: 266
What the hell are they teaching here!?

It's not just there. Below is a direct quote from a fairly well known commercial trainer/instructor. It is very bad advice, yet some people believe it...and repeat it.

"My gun is not coming out unless it is with intent to pull the trigger on someone because thats what is necessary to stay above ground. I do not care to attempt to de-escalate anything when the gun needs to be used as a civilian as some intimidation mentality. That process can likely get one killed IMO.

There's a time for shooting and you get to shooting. I work from a defensive posture as a civilian, not an offensive position similiar to swat or in some instances line officers.

Having been trained in swat and swat commander while carrying a shield, I do know the difference between the two."

.
__________________
First off.....'she' is a weapon, not a girlfriend;
a genderless, inanimate mechanism designed to mete out mayhem in life threatening situations.
Skyguy is offline  
Old July 16, 2006, 03:16 PM   #55
Sum1_Special
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 21, 2005
Posts: 243
Man... I was alone for 2 pages, trying to understand why everyone was saying I was being unreasanable. I believe forums work in a certain way, the first few responses usually indicates where the thread is going. In this case, I am wrong, the next person agrees, 10 people follow, I explain a situation that happened to me last year, everybody tells me I am wrong again, even a Leo tells me I am wrong and yet explains exactly what I was trying to say. people are pretty much looking at me as if I am an idiot who should not be carrying a gun. Finally, somebody agrees with me, Captain Charlie chimes in, and now everybody is beginning to agree with me. Is it the hostile way I write my posts? Or is sense finally entering this thread? Don't mean to be rude, but I could not believe some of the things I was reading. I would think what I was trying to say was common knowledge and that people would be on my side... I guess not.

cgraham and Captain Charlie have it dead on.

1. I was afraid that if I did not give the man my money he would stab me to death, considering he was 5 feet away and was threatening just that. I did not call the police because I didn't think it was necessary. The mugger was long gone and I didn't want to explain all of this to a police officer. I just wanted to go home. Maybe I was wrong, but I didn't want to complicate things, all I remembered was the knife the guy was holding. If it was under different circumstances, I might have called the police.

2. I believe Captain Charlie is 100% correct. And if what he and powderman say is true then the article is undoubtedly wrong. And that goes for the rest of you who disagree.
Sum1_Special is offline  
Old July 16, 2006, 03:56 PM   #56
Charles S
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 29, 2002
Location: North East Texas
Posts: 929
Quote:
To say that, once you draw, you must shoot, is locking yourself into a static mindset. Not only can that place you in a legal and moral dilemma, it can also reduce your ability to survive by reducing your ability to adapt.
I agree 100%. However, to say I draw with the intent of shooting (my personal belief) is quite different. I will not issue a verbal warning (I am not a police officer and I do not feel that I am obligated to the attacker in any way form or manner), my only obligation is the protection of myself and my family. If a situation escalates to the point I am drawing my gun, it is my intent to fire at the time I draw. However, I have drawn my gun twice in my life and have yet to fire in self defense. How can that be you ask? To answer your question, there mugger in question, upon seeing my gun elected to cease his current actions and flee the scene. I felt no need to restrain him, I did call 911 and wait 30 minutes for an officer to arrive, at that point in time I called back and left my name and number so I could be contacted and left (let that be a lesson to those who think the police can be there to protect you). The second instance an individual felt the need to break in my house. I entered the room and the individual (with a screwdriver in hand) was entering the house. I managed to get a clear sight picture and the individual in question elected to leave.

If the individual in question had not stopped the actions that prompted me to draw my gun. I would have shot. There is no question in my mind. In neither instance did I yell "freeze," "stop, I'll shoot," ect. I would have shot without warning (other than the fact that I was drawing my firearm), I had the mindset and the ability.

I hope I am never again faced with the need to utilize a gun for self defense, but make no mistake about it, I am prepared to utilize deadly force to protect myself and my family.

I do encourage all of you to take a defensive handgun course. I highly recommend LFI. Ayoob's book, In the Gravest Extreme, the afore mentioned book On Killing, The Street Smart Gun Book Farnham, and No Second Place Winner, Jordan are all good starting points.

Again, there is no substitute for quality training.

Capt Charlie, is correct: One must be flexible in their tactics, situations are fluid and you must change to match the situation. After five years in full contact martial arts, I have realized It never works out in real life like you had previously planned for it to.

Good luck

Charles
__________________
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell
Charles S is offline  
Old July 16, 2006, 04:20 PM   #57
Sum1_Special
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 21, 2005
Posts: 243
The reason I say to warn first(as in yell 'Freeze!', 'Stop!', 'Don't move', or whatever) , and the reason I did yell 'Freeze!' is because the parking garage was dark, and I wanted to make 100% sure the attacker knew I had drawn my gun on him. If you are in a well lit area, and the attacker sees you draw your gun, you have obviously just warned the attacker. Therefore, I think Charles S did the right thing whether or not he yelled anything...

Just making things perfectly clear on my part.
Sum1_Special is offline  
Old July 17, 2006, 12:27 AM   #58
Big Mac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 13, 2006
Posts: 196
Regarding the brandishing part. Yeah it MIGHT get you arrested but keep in mind, it takes 12 people to convict you. If you have a good enough lawyer, the case can get dismissed if you have a DAMN good reason for brandishing that weapon. Not that I am advocating whipping out Ol' Betsy when you get into a fender bender or someone gets in your face and talks some crap, but if you see a felony in progress, it is your duty to help prevent it within reasonable constraints.
Big Mac is offline  
Old July 17, 2006, 01:10 AM   #59
kansas45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 25, 2006
Location: Southern Kansas, near I-35
Posts: 142
I believe the article give's a general view of good advice. Except for the condition of carry. Cocked & Locked is the only wayto do it. It may only save a split second, but that split second may save your life! It took me a little time to get used to it & I'm sure that if we all thought back to when we started we would find that it was a little scarry knowing we had a chambered round that was ready for action, but it soon became accepctable to us. A split second will win in any sport I can think of. You can win a car race by a split second. you can win a calf ropeing by a split second. You can save a life by a split second. Just use your head, size up the situation in a split second and act accordingly.
" May The Force Be With You!" (or something).
__________________
I HAVE TWO GUNS. ONE FOR EACH OF YOU!
kansas45 is offline  
Old July 17, 2006, 11:14 AM   #60
revjen45
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 7, 2006
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 626
I respectfully disagree with post above stating that one has the duty to interfere with the commission of a felony. Legally the police have virtual immunity for whatever they do in the line of duty- a peon doesn't. The sentiment is noble, but the law is full of trickery and a vigilante (you know that's what the lying media will call you) can find himself spending all he has or will ever have on lawyers. Even if you do prevail in court and don't get sent to prison you won't have anything left when it's all over. After all, the purpose of the law is to create busy work for the legal industry. Ask yourself if you have a spare $50,000 and if it's worth spending it on this. If you want to help, be a good witness. Personally I would leave and hope not to become involved. The last thing I want to do is be standing there holding a hot smoking pistol when the police arrive.
revjen45 is offline  
Old July 17, 2006, 11:48 AM   #61
NRAhab
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 20, 2005
Location: Bellevue, WA
Posts: 683
Quote:
Tuco:
When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
I know that quoting a western may be not quite inbounds, but it makes a valid point. There are times when a warning could cost you your life. I agree wholeheartedly with Capt. Charlie in that a self defense situation is a dynamic environment. What holds true for one may not for the next, so sometimes a warning could be justified as well.

That being said, when it is time to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
NRAhab is offline  
Old July 17, 2006, 03:49 PM   #62
Charles S
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 29, 2002
Location: North East Texas
Posts: 929
Quote:
When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
That is exactly what John Farnam teaches.

Charles
__________________
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- George Orwell
Charles S is offline  
Old July 17, 2006, 05:13 PM   #63
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Sum,

Quote:
What I am saying is I think the method of drawing a gun only when you are ready to fire is flawed and immoral. Why? Because you are surprising the BG with your gun and before he has time to react and get the hell out of there, you fire.
So I am immoral for not giving my potential murderer any extra time to kill me? Are you serious? "Time to react and get the hell out of there" they should have never put me or themselves in danger. Now I must decide to delay and possibly get cut/killed or fire instantly not giving the poor knife wielding bad guy a chance. I think I will error on the side of staying alive.

Quote:
I was ready to shoot if the man needed shooting. If he advanced or did something stupid I would have shot him without hesitation.
You are very lucky buddy. If he had charged, you would be cut......bottom line. Unless you can hit the brain or spine of a deadly threat at full run. If you think that any carry handgun cartridge can instantly stop a human never mind a 22lr you are seriously in denial of the facts. One thing I can promise you is that the last thing you want stuck to you is a ticked off bad guy with a knife. Had this situation turned ugly and the threat decided to charge your decision to give a warning could have been a mortal mistake. I will never hurt a soul however I refuse to be hurt by a bad guy. If someone decides to pull a knife they better hope that I have some cover between us. If not there will be no warning. I can't afford to take the chance you did.
threegun is offline  
Old July 17, 2006, 06:47 PM   #64
tony pasley
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 13, 2006
Location: western north carolina
Posts: 1,393
the reason for carry is protection in n.c. you must be in fear of death or serious bodly harm to you or others felonies don't always apply. no threat be a witness if threat you must decide at that time what is best.
tony pasley is offline  
Old July 18, 2006, 12:31 AM   #65
TexiCali Slim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2006
Location: H-E-B Tejas
Posts: 175
I was under the impression that you could shoot if being robbed
TexiCali Slim is offline  
Old July 18, 2006, 07:48 AM   #66
odessastraight
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Posts: 199
The author that you deride in this thread has a much better grasp of the use of deadly force by citizens than do you, Sum1 (Yet I'm also one of those who don't agree with condition 3 for an autoloader). The only time the ccw is used, to include presentation, is if one is in fear of the loss of life or in fear of grave injury...Period. A BG has you at knifepoint and it's your right and obligation to stop the BG with deadly force. I think you were very lucky to have survived your encounter with the knife weilding BG...and I just have to wonder how many other victims have come under knifepoint from him since then. I'm of the mindset that anyone who exhibits the behavior of having me at knifepoint immediately gets that behavior stopped with a center hit with a .44 Special. I not only see this as my right but also my obligation...to me and law abiding society, in general.

You see, sir, I've already made up my mind about when to use my ccw and there will be no hesitation when it's needed nor will I pull it if not to absolutely save life or escape grave harm. It must be that "clear cut". There is just no room (nor time) for subjective "warnings".

---------OK, I'll refrain from comment of .22s for ccw...ouch!!! bit my tongue.
odessastraight is offline  
Old July 18, 2006, 09:40 AM   #67
riverrat66
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2004
Location: Western New York
Posts: 394
OK, I've been trying not to comment on this for fear of upsetting someone but I'm about to burst if I don't.
Quote:
I think Sum's situation was this: He was not immediately under attack, but was been threatened with attack; he cannot know if the threat will be followed through, so must prepare for it.
The knife wielding mugger was only 4-5 feet away! How long do you wait before reacting? Until he starts slicing & dicing? By then you'll probably bleed out! Remembering the Tueller Drill, Sum1 was at a disadvantage from the moment this encounter began. An accomplished knife handler could have just as easily plunged his knife into Sum1's heart before he even had a chance to fire his .22 pistol and a seasoned crack addicted mugger would not have been scared off so easily either.

The good part is Sum1 was extremely fortunate that he did not get cut, stabbed or even killed.

The bad part is he may think if it worked once it will work again and the next time all he has to do is just "show" his firearm and the BG will run away, again! Which means he's lost the edge, it's called complacency.

I agree with odessastraight, TexiCali Slim & threegun on this one. As for me, if someone with a knife demands my wallet I'm gonna double tap him as I move off to the side. But I'm not using a .22 either, I'm using my XD45. Sorry threegun, I put my Glocks in the safe for now.

But of course as usual this is only my opinion. I'm not an expert but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once.

riverrat66...out
__________________
Life Member Vietnam Veterans of America
Life Member DAV
Life Member NRA
Life Member Harley Owners Group
riverrat66 is offline  
Old July 18, 2006, 10:22 AM   #68
rezmedic54
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 25, 2005
Location: Arizona
Posts: 288
Self Defense

If you wait for things to go south you usually waited to long at least that is the general opinion . If possible I might same something if not the way I understand it from all the LEO I have talked to is if the BG is there with a weapon the law looks at it as the BG intends to use it.If I where to walk into my living room and saw a BG with his back to me looking thru my stuff and saw he had a gun he would have bought himself a round in the back to say something by the time he turned you would be behind the curve ( and you'd probably get shot in that case), with a knife maybe a warning not to move ,make any sudden movements and you will be shot. If I catch him standing facing me his hands behind his back and tell him make any sudden moves and you will be shot do you think if he is in his right mind he'd throw his hands up probably not and if he did just by the movement being fast he'd get shot.Granted there are times to let them know they have been caught and there are times when you let the weapon do your talking every encounter is going to be different it's like emergency medicine in 20 years of working the street never found one patient that read the book same in self defense.If and when any of us has to shoot somebody we all hope it's the right thing at the right time. Cause if it isn't we stand to loose all we have worked for. But as we know every law is subject to interpretation by a judge and just cause it says this doesn't mean when it's done it won't say that. But like I said before what do I know I'm just a retired Medic. Be Safe Out There Kurt
__________________
Kurt Pietrzak
Maricopa Shooting Service
S.W.A.T. South West Airsoft Tactical
CCW Instrutor
NRA Certified Instructor
Gunsmith
Maricopa ,Az.

http:www.maricopashooting.com
rezmedic54 is offline  
Old July 18, 2006, 11:32 AM   #69
john in jax
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2005
Posts: 1,099
ditto on the local laws

Actual real life case here in Jacksonville, FL from a few months ago:
Individual enters an electronics store and asks for or insists they give him some money (depending on whose story you believe). When the store owner, named Freeman, refuses the individual starts to wander about the store. Store owner gets worried, and sends staff to a more secure area in the back and they call 911. The store owner is VERY worried, so when the individual makes a move for his waistband the store owner shoots him several times. The individual was NOT armed and the store owner was NOT charged with any crime.

The long and the short of it was the store owner BELIEVED he was in danger of robbed, great bodily harm, being killed, or any of the above.

In FL the laws (at least the way I as a lay person, interpret them) used to say your concealed weapon was there to save you or somebody else from being killed or grave bodily harm NOT as a crime deterent - - leave law enforcement to LEO's. If yours or somebody else's life was not in danger you had better not shoot.

New Florida laws beef up and expand the "castle doctrine". It allows the home/business/car owner more leeway in defending his/her property.
__________________
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards. Claire Wolfe
john in jax is offline  
Old July 19, 2006, 11:59 PM   #70
Doubletaptap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2006
Location: Around north Houston
Posts: 287
Usually in these scenarios your brain is your first line of defense.
If you percieve bodily harm or death I feel it prudent to draw and warn the opponent. If that don't work, shoot him. If it's almost too late,just shoot him.He can't defend himself in court if he's dead.
Also you have to remember court,wonderful court.
Now I saw some posts where folks here have or want big bad magnums,big bad buckshot and howitzers for defense.
Well, the judge wants to find out if it was your intent to kill this perp or just stop him from doing a crime.
He'll ask what caliber,size of bullets etc and if you tell him you was using a normal handgun of say .40 cal with self defense ammo it'll look good for you.
If you tell him you were using super magnum nitro armor piercing blasters it'll help put you away.
I use #6 shot in my home defense 12 ga. and plain hollow point Cor-Bons in my .40 semi carry pistol. Buckshot judges don't like. Magnums judges don't like.
Always carry one in the pipe and always try to get away from the situation if you can.
If you can't, shoot em.
If you shoot em' make sure they're dead or they'll come back and sue you for damages.
There are many things to consider for the gun carrying person. The laws make it tough to defend yourself but it can be done if you USE YOUR HEAD.
KNOW THE LAWS OF YOUR STATE, and don't try to be John Wayne and clean up the bad guys.
The reason behind carry licenses are to DETER crime.
Yes, I believe you should come to the aid of someone else in trouble,after calling the police if you can. Cell phones make it easy now. Cell phones with cameras sometimes help even more. Sometimes you can deter a crime just by the action of taking a picture or video,the bad guy will take off.
I try to leave the blasting of bad guys to the police and military, but I will blast someone to save my hide or someone elses if necessary,after I use my head and think a little first.
George
__________________
Don't believe the hype!!!
Doubletaptap is offline  
Old July 20, 2006, 09:32 AM   #71
springmom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2005
Location: Houston area
Posts: 1,823
If it's a clean shoot (you were in fear for your life or the life of another, and the other Texas justifications) you will never have to explain to a judge what ammunition you used because you will never go before a judge in the first place. Here in Harris County, the grand jury has not true-billed a self-defense shooting since I've lived here; nor did any grand jury in Austin when I lived there.

God bless Texas.

Springmom
__________________
I will not be a victim

home on the web:
www.panagia-icons.net (my webpage)
www.nousfromspring.blogspot.com (Orthodoxy)

"I couldn't hear you. Stop firing the gun while you're talking!" Frank Drebin, The Naked Gun
springmom is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14101 seconds with 7 queries