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Old July 11, 2006, 08:23 PM   #1
corey006
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Witness 10mm

10mm Witness
I just picked up a Witness Steel in Wonderfinish.

After my first couple of trips to the range I have a few questions.

First of all the gun performs quite good with factory ammo I went through 3 boxes.

50 rounds of American Eagle(180 gr lead cast) went through without a hiccup.

100 rounds of UMC(180 FMJ) I had about 5 FTF,(most of which was when I was using 20# Wolf Spring) when I used the 18# I had no jams.

I did run through 50 rounds of reloads and this is where I had some problems.

First the load..

200gr Horn XTP
Federal Brass(I have Starline on the way)
11.3gr of Accurate#9
CCI 350
1.255 OAL
.420 Crimp using LEE Factory Crimp Die

I was using a Wolf 20# spring.

I found that I was getting a fair bit of powder residue(some of it unburnt). After about 5 shots I would have some built up in the chamber/barrel and it would start leaving small dents(like dimples) on my cases.

I cleaned out the fouling after 5 rounds and all the rounds fired off with no malfunctions.

My cases were coming out normal except for a slight flattening of the primer. There are no splits or any smoke around the primer. So I am assuming that the primer flattening is happening when the case is striking the breech face?

Is Accurate#9 a dirty powder?

Is the powder charge too light?

Or maybe not enough crimp?

I measured my chamber and it is on the sloppy side....(.430) is the measurement. Not sure what the SAAMI spec is for chamber sizes? I am guessing around .427?
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Old July 12, 2006, 10:03 PM   #2
saands
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Sounds like you figured out the factory load issues with the heavy spring ... that spring is for REAL 10mm loads ... like DoubleTap's.

I haven't loaded any AA#9 in 10mm, but from what I've read and compiled that load might be on the light side ... I'm assuming that you don't have a Chrony ... that is really helpful when you are working up a load. 11.3gr is a start load, so I'd take it up bit by bit to the max they list for AA#9 ... I haven't used any #9 since I reloaded for the CZ-52 a few years back, so I can't recall if it was particularly dirty or not ... I doubt that the crimp is a problem. I'd recommend 800X for the 10mm ... it gets it up where it was meant to fly I'd also order some DoubleTap loads .... they are normal pressures, but they'll put a smile on your face ...

Saands
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Old July 13, 2006, 12:05 AM   #3
MTMilitiaman
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11.3 gr is a couple gr under max (13.2 gr) for that powder and bullet combo in the Hornady manual, but it is a mid-range load. They list 11.5 for 1000 fps down to 9.7 gr for 850 fps.

I have about 150 of the 180 gr XTPs loaded up with AA #9. I like the powder. It is cleaner, in my experience, than 800x and meters a whole lots better out of the Dillon progressive press. That said, I am switching over the the Gold Dots and may try out from Tru Blue when I do.

It is interesting that I am having kinda the opposite problem. My Glock 20 runs pretty good with the stock spring and the Win Silvertips, or other light/moderate loads, but the Double Taps and my handloads throw brass a ways out there and the pistol fails to go into battery sometimes. I am going to see if slowing down the slide velocity a little with a 20# spring helps things run a little smoother.

I am a novice reloader myself so I really haven't mastered the troubleshooting yet. I'm sorry you're having problems and I hope you get them worked out. The folks at the 10mmTalk boards might be able to help you get the kinks worked out of your system.
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Old July 15, 2006, 06:36 PM   #4
corey006
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I WISH we could get DoubleTap in Canada but we CANNOT.

I am gonna wait for the Starline brass and carry on as is. I will work up gradually...
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Old July 16, 2006, 06:37 PM   #5
Brutus
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Aa#9

I have gotten the following results in my 10MM Kimber.

200Gr. Hornady XTP with 12.1 gr of AA#9 1082/1129 FPS.

200Gr. Hornady XTP with 7.4 gr. of Power Pistol 900/923 FPS.

180Gr. Hornady XTP with 13.2 gr of AA#9 1136/1152 FPS.

180Gr. Hornady XTP with 13.4 gr of AA#9 1169/1202 FPS.

180Gr. Hornady XTP with 13.5 gr of AA#9 1184/1240 FPS.

180Gr. Hornady XTP with 13.6 gr of AA#9 1209/1260 FPS.

Hope this helps. Best accuarcy out of my gun was the first load listed. All loads function without a hiccup.
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Old July 17, 2006, 09:44 AM   #6
saands
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Corey006:

If you wish for DT, but can't buy it, then you should go to the GlockTalk forum and look at the special reloading forum for the 10mm. I have found that pretty similar performance to McNett's loads (not quite as good, but close) can be had with 800x powder. It doesn't meter well, but I ended up getting a digital thrower/scale and that works like a charm.

Saands
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Old July 17, 2006, 11:44 AM   #7
Mal H
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I'll echo what several others have said - 11.3 gr of AA#9 is on the light side. Light loads of slow powders will cause the unburnt powder condition you're seeing. According to Speer, you can easily start at 12.5 and work up to 14.0 gr safely.

For loads on the lighter side, you might want to try a faster powder such as AA#7 or Hodgdon HS-6.


(Oh, and let's move this over to the reloading forum since that's the main thrust of the thread.)
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Old July 17, 2006, 06:39 PM   #8
corey006
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Thanx guys..

Yes, I have Speer manual too but that is for different bullet(TMJ)....so that is why I started at 11.3 which is Accurate's data for the 200grXTP and AA#9.

I am gonna have some Starline brass soon and will start increasing the load and see if it gets better...

I am also gonna get some 800X and maybe some Bluedot to try too.
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Old July 17, 2006, 07:38 PM   #9
saands
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Corey,

I don't know how long you have been reloading but I will pass along one tip. When you are using data from a source that doesn't apply directly to your components, a key parameter (that is almost NEVER listed for some reason) is the seating depth ... that is, the distance the base of the bullet travels inside the case when you seat it. THIS is the dimension that needs to remain constant from bullet to bullet (assuming that the weights are the same, of course). What this means is that a JHP (much longer than a JFP of the same weight) will have to have a longer OAL than a JFP to make up for it. The reason for this is that the available volume in a case has a lot to do with the peak pressures that a round generates ... in some small straightwalled cases (like a 32acp) this effect can be truly SCARY

Be safe,

Saands
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Old July 17, 2006, 09:19 PM   #10
corey006
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I am brand new to pistol reloading but have been reloading for rifle for several years.

Thanx for the tip...
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Old July 24, 2006, 12:39 PM   #11
corey006
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Update....

I upped the charge to 11.7 and did 30 rounds.

It is still leaving unburnt powder but no excessive case buldging and primer hasn't gotten any flatter. So I will continue on gradually increasing charge until I see any other pressure signs.

One thing I am going to have to do is get myself a Dremel and chamfer the edges of the chamber and polish feed ramp as some of my bullets are getting dinged when chambering.

Thanx for the help guys. I am sure once I get to a certain level of powder it will begin to fully ignite.

I fired some factory ammo today with no hiccups. But did notice it is VERY tame when compared to the reloads and I am not even at maximum yet...
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Old July 24, 2006, 02:53 PM   #12
saands
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No required ... the factory loads you buy at the local store will be a lot more like 40S&W loads than the 10mm loads that the Witness was designed to take (especially with the 20# upgrade). Even with full power 10mm loads I think that you will be impressed with the way the Witness handles the recoil ... for the performance achieved, the recoil is quite manageable.

Saands
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Old August 17, 2006, 01:04 PM   #13
corey006
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Just a little update...


I am up to 12.7 gr of AA#9 now.

No pressure signs other than the flattened primer that I have had right from the get/go.

I am still getting some unburnt powder but it is improving.

I am going to keep loading up in .1 gr increments.

Just a couple of notes...

I am finding this bullet/powder combination is producing some pretty good accuracy IMHO.

Only 2 out of 40 rounds jammed this time. They are hanging up in the same place. Right at the top of the chamber. I have allready chamfered/beveled and polished the chamber but obviously it needs just a little more relieving.

I am going to invest in cronograph to ...after hunting season.
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Old August 18, 2006, 12:51 PM   #14
corey006
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I was at range this morning and was still getting unburnt powder at 13.7 gr.

There are still no pressure signs other than the original flat primer....so I will continue to load up in .1 gr increments.

I think I will be happy when I get kinks worked out the accuracy looks like it will be good to me...

This is 30 rounds I fired today ranging from 12.8 gr to 13.7 gr of AA#9.

25 yards no rest.


Last edited by corey006; August 20, 2006 at 05:54 PM.
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Old August 23, 2006, 02:29 AM   #15
Alaskee
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Breechface

Corey,
You might check the breechface on that pistol. Mine had the same FTF problem you describe and on looking at the breechface, I noticed a machine mark ring around the firing pin hole that would hang the edge of the cartridge head up as the cartridge pivoted into the chamber . When I polished up the breechface, the problem disappeared.
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Old August 30, 2006, 12:43 PM   #16
corey006
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:beerchug:

Got my 800X and loaded up some loads:

200gr XTP
7.1-8.0 gr of 800X
CCI-300 prm
1.250 OAL
Lee Factory Crimp .420
Starline Brass

I have also:

Cut down my ejector.(I took alot off )

Polished Breech face.

Installed +10% Mag springs

Polished the extractor.

It will now feed empty cases when dropping the slide now almost all the time.


Went to the range.

Had no more flattened primers from 7.1-8.0 grains.

Only had 2 FTF(out of 50 rounds) and that was with only 2 rounds left in magazine. When the mag is full it feeds great probably due to more pressure on the spring.

The nose of my XTP's are no longer getting beat up.

The ejected brass now all ends up right in front of me about 4 feet away. Before the brass was bouncing off of lane barrier and still ending up all over the place and very far away.

No more unburnt powder issues thanx to the 800X.(but it is a terrible powder for measuring)


When I got home I did a little more polishing on the breech face to get it really slick and shiny. I hope it will just about eliminate all the FTF.

Will be back at range tommorow but I am not going to load any higher until I get a Chronograph(which is on its way).

Just want to eliminate the FTF completey then worry about getting to the right amount of 800X.

Thanx to all for the help....
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Old August 30, 2006, 03:55 PM   #17
saands
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There is a solution to the 800X metering so poorly ... but it ain't cheap It is http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=772151
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Old September 15, 2006, 12:11 PM   #18
corey006
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Finally got out to the range with the new chrony.

It worked well but I found I had to put it about 15 feet out so MUZZLE blast would not read....had a coulple of readings around 2200fps would be a nice veloctiy though for a 200 gr XTP out of a 10mm :blink:

These were all individually thrown charges then trickled off to get exact measurement.

Anyone trusting 800X through a meter and not weighing every single charge is asking for SERIOUS trouble......some of my thrown charges were 1 gr more than the average!!

Anyways here we go.

Witness 10mm Steel Fullsize(factory barrel)
Starline brass(new)
200 gr XTP
Imr 800X
1.258 OAL
CCI350(MAGNUM PRIMERS)
Lee Factory Crimp die(light crimp 1/2 turn)
43 degrees cold and windy.

8.8 1168(HI) 1103(LOW) 1132(avg)

8.9 1196 1119 1142

9.1 1174 1145 1160

9.3 1189 1149 1163

9.4 1203 1158 1173

9.5 1218 1182 1200

9.6 1228 1181 1210

None of the cases had any flattened primers. No excessive bulging either. I may try a .1 or .2 gr more but my absolute max will be 9.8. As stated before Mcnett's 10.0 gr load was in excess of SAAMI max and I will not even try it.

I fired off a total of 50 shots most grouped in about 3 inch circle 2 inchs above Point of Aim.

Still have a few FTF but this has greatly improved with tweaking of magazine mouth.


Witness 10mm Steel Fullsize(factory barrel)
Starline brass(new)
200 gr Montana Gold CMJ(complete metel jacket)
Imr 800X
CCI350(MAGNUM PRIMERS)
1.258 OAL
Lee Factory Crimp die(light crimp 1/2 turn)

I started this load off at 8.0 gr. but never chronoed it until 9.6.

9.6 1180(HI) 1173(LOW) 1178(AVG)

9.7 1225 1179 1203

9.8 1233 1183 1208

I had better cycling with this bullet and once again no flattened primers or excessively buldged cases. I may try 10.0 gr in this bullet because quite a bit shorter than the XTP.

This is my first experience with Montana Gold and they seemed to work fine at near maximum loads. Accuracy and grouping was much the same as the XTP.

I thought I might get a little better velocity than these numbers because I think the stock barrel on a Witness is actually 4.75 inchs which is slightly longer than on the Glock 20 factory barrel.

The lack of performance was probably due to colder temperatures?
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Old September 16, 2006, 12:21 AM   #19
Tomas
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At the risk of you having a shelf full of 10mm powders - yes, 800x is a great powder for it, and I have 10 lbs. of it on hand, but Power Pistol is another great 10mm powder, and worth a look when you burn through all your 800x. Gives good velocities, and meters well, without too much pressure.

Tom
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Old September 20, 2006, 11:18 AM   #20
corey006
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CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.





Went to the range today...

100 rounds....

3 FTE, and about 4 FTF.

I am going to back off the 9.6 grain load. The primers are ok, brass is expanded but not buldged.

But...there is a sharp edge where extractor is clawing at the brass and the FTE would seem to suggest this is just a little too hot.

GREAT load to shoot.....and groups really nice. XTP seems to be a very accurate bullet for me.

This group was shot at about 10 yards standing. 2 Ten rounders.


Last edited by corey006; September 21, 2006 at 12:41 PM. Reason: to put load warning in
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