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Old July 7, 2006, 02:53 PM   #1
Donaldo
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Liability

Hey guys, had a question of liability.

I was thinking of reloading some 8mm mauser for a friend who wants something better than corrosive/steel core surplus, but something cheaper than say remington. And he's willing to pay for the componenets.

The problem I'm having os trying to figure the liability. If something goes wrong with his rifle, who would be liable? I plan on developing a load for his rifle from published data with him playing a very hands on part (I mostly supervise), and loading the cases with me assisting him, or at the very least to his exact specs (charge weight, OAL, Etc.) in case he can't make it over to use my equipment.

Is there anyway to remove the liability from myself? I'm not looking to become a wholesale ammo dealer, nor am I looking to anything illegal. Any advice would be appreciated.
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Old July 7, 2006, 02:58 PM   #2
amamnn
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reloading for someone else

If it were me, I would let him buy some PMC; they make good 8mm ammo and it's cheaper than Remington-- probably more accurate, too.
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Old July 7, 2006, 03:01 PM   #3
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One simple way is to write up a waiver, having him sign it, and possibly even notarized (or at least witnessed).

It would be better however, if your friend did the reloading on his own. He can learn just what his rifle is capable of, and its not that expensive to get started.

I have all the equipment, I just haven't set my bench up yet. I have all the load data, just am too lazy to actually do any of it.

I was going to do somethign similar, with .45acp, pay someone else to reload for me, both of us decided it wasn't really worth it. Turns out even as careful as my friend is, he has made mistakes, forgetting powder, and causing squibs in his own guns.
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Old July 7, 2006, 04:17 PM   #4
hoghunting
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A waiver is not a bad idea, unfortunately, it probably won't hold up in court for a negligence lawsuit. Either have him use factory ammo or let him reload on your equipment.
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Old July 7, 2006, 06:33 PM   #5
hodaka
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You have liability for nearly everything. I have reloaded for a few good friends. If they even shot something they didn't want to shoot they could sue me if they wanted. Life is full of chance. Even if your friend reloaded on your equipment he could sue you and may even have a case. Silly, isn't it.
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Old July 8, 2006, 05:33 PM   #6
WESHOOT2
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one other minor point to consider

Trsansferring ammo to another without a Federal license (FFL6) is a Federal feloney.
Feloney.

How's about THAT "liability"?
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Old July 8, 2006, 07:02 PM   #7
918v
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Cite please.
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Old July 9, 2006, 06:09 AM   #8
WESHOOT2
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itsa really big book

www.atf.gov

Yer on yer own........
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Old July 9, 2006, 06:24 AM   #9
Jammer Six
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That's not a citation.

If you have a real citation, I also would like to see it, because I don't believe your claim.

Private sales, of handguns, rifles and ammunition are not illegal.

If you know otherwise, I invite you to demonstrate your knowledge.
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Old July 9, 2006, 07:24 AM   #10
MADISON
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liability

The last I heard the BATF requiires a MILLION DOLLARS of LIABILITY insurance and a Manufacturers licence.
Your best bet is to show him/her how to load what caliber he wants loaded.
Give them the manual[S] and walk to the other side of the room. Let them load their own rounds.
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Old July 9, 2006, 09:06 AM   #11
Swamp Yankee
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Teach him to fish,

As Madison pointed out, let him pick up his components including dies if needed, invite him over and show him the process.
You'll both be happy with the outcome and he'll probably buy his own equipment.
Gotta keep the economy rolling.

Take care
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Old July 9, 2006, 09:18 AM   #12
Art Eatman
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A commercial reloading operation requires a BATFE license. Just reloading with a friend is in no way a commercial transaction.

Art
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Old July 9, 2006, 11:12 AM   #13
918v
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18USC922 criminalizes certain firearm/ ammunition transactions. My reading indicates that one needs a license to engage in an ammunition BUSINESS. I just don't see where loading ammo for a buddy constitutes "business."

BTW,

"Felony" is not spelled the same as "baloney."

Last edited by 918v; July 9, 2006 at 01:58 PM.
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Old July 9, 2006, 01:05 PM   #14
contender6030
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Quote:
"Felony" is not spelled the same as "baloney."
I think it is in that context.
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Old July 10, 2006, 08:03 PM   #15
skeet47
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liability

Insurance is not mandatory for licensed commercial reloaders but it is a good idea.Many loaders never carry insurance but incorporate to protect private assets.
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Old July 11, 2006, 10:57 AM   #16
Sport45
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Quote:
"Felony" is not spelled the same as "baloney."
Maybe its a Felogna?


Now I've got that darned Oscar Mayer jingle stuck in my head...

In any case I wouldn't raise a stink if my friend's reload damaged a firearm of mine and I don't think any of my friends would complain about my reloads. We'd just "make it right" and move on. That's what friends do.
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Old July 11, 2006, 11:09 AM   #17
M1911
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Quote:
One simple way is to write up a waiver, having him sign it, and possibly even notarized (or at least witnessed).
Talk to your lawyer. While a waiver is certainly a good idea, your lawyer will also probably tell you that any decent lawyer will get around a waiver -- you can't sign away your right to sue someone.
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Old July 11, 2006, 11:39 AM   #18
918v
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Yes you can. It is called assumption of risk. You cannot consent to intentional infliction of injury, however. This is where people get confused.

With that said, going to your liar to seek advice in this matter is silly. You might as well buy your friend a reloading setup because it will cost less.
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Old July 11, 2006, 11:45 AM   #19
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Maybe its a Felogna?


I'm stealing that one!
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Old July 11, 2006, 05:33 PM   #20
temmi
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After all this… I too would get him to buy his own powder brass ,dies and let him work with you… then you have nothing to be sorry for. If you need to worry about Liability it not worth the “Favor”… felony or not.
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Old July 11, 2006, 08:30 PM   #21
44 AMP
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definitions

A lot depends on how (and who) defines things. One possible definition for reloading is manufacturing ammunition. If you sell this ammo, then you may be considered "engaging in business", and the Feds take a dim view of this without their license. On the other hand, if all you do is refill fired brass (his), with new components (also his), then you may only be "providing a service". You would have to have the rifle available also, to be able to work up safe loads. Don't just pick a load out of a book and assume it is ok in YOUR gun. Every gun is different in this reguard.

If your buddy is the kind of person who makes you concerned about your liability, then DON'T load for him!

Get him a reloading manual, and help him out with advice on getting started, and then let him go play on his own. If he screws up, he can sue himself.
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Old July 12, 2006, 04:25 AM   #22
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spoon-feeding internet a$$-wipes vs impinging my name and reputation

Page 97 of my ATF P 5300.4 (10-95) has a small blurb about "Reloading".

Further information listed in ATF Publication 5300.16; further tax regulations in 27 CFR Part 53.

The ATF also (considerately) defines "commerce" (which includes "transfer").

As some know, regulations documentation received can stack up to the moon....and at least he wrote "...please".
No, I ain't giving it all.....
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Old July 12, 2006, 04:45 AM   #23
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and another thing

Why would anyone imagine I'd obfuscate something so readily confirmed?
Don't those who know me know that will never happen?


Manners, so sadly lacking...

My name is Tim Gray (and yes I'm in the phone book), not Bill Clinton.
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Old July 12, 2006, 05:39 AM   #24
Bud Helms
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Well, I don't see how making some handloads for a friend is a business either, BUT I do not trust the BATFE to practice law in a consistent manner. WESHOOT2's reference is news to me, but there you go. I learn something everyday.

Jammer6 said:
Quote:
That's not a citation. ... etc.
That may be a little too confrontational, but I'll attribute it to style. Is there something wrong with the link? I don't always expect a respondent to go to the trouble to ferret out the applicable portions of a reference and spoon feed them here. A link is usually good enough. WESHOOT2 dug it out of the text, we can too.

My prohibition against reloading for friends is based on some .30-'06 loads I made up, verrry carefully for a good friend on his way to Colorado for an elk hunt. Some Nosler partition 180s over some Win 760. Somewhere around 52 grs ... don't accurately remember. This was a Sako rifle and had a very good and snug chamber. We went to the range here in middle Georgia and they were right on velocity and scary accurate. He stopped off at a public range to sight in after the long drive out from Georgia and got some 3 and 4 inch low target impacts at 100 yds. He went to a local store and bought some Federal Premiums, sighted in successfully and went hunting.

The only thing I can figure is after the "cold soak" trip out (rifle was well protected, but in the bed of the truck.), that ball W760 was burning a little slow. Maybe I should have used mag primers. Maybe I should have tried a faster powder. I'll never know, but some literature suggests that with ball powder, mag primers are good insurance for good ignition and full burn For the record, I now use mag primers for all my ball powder loads. 'May not be necessary, but I do.

I sure was embarrased.

Not a story about the liability of doing this, but there are lots of reasons to not load for anyone BUT yourself.
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Old July 15, 2006, 08:06 AM   #25
WESHOOT2
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offering some relief

IF one uses the fired cases one may reload them without tax liability.

Not "any fired cases"; specifically "their fired cases".

Liability insurance started at four figures and increased based on sales volume.
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