June 29, 2006, 12:09 PM | #1 |
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Hand Rolled Defense Loads
Ammo prices are way up in my neck of the woods. 100rnd WWB "value Pack" 230gr 45acp ball is costing me $24. It used to be $14.
Defense ammo is way up there. $25 for 20rnds. Give or take depepnding on brand. If I load my own defense rounds, am I opening myself up to major lawyer attack if I ever had to use them in real self defense? It's so difficult having a good time. virgil
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June 29, 2006, 12:32 PM | #2 |
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Yes you are. Try just handloading you practice ammo so that it matches your store bought defensive ammo in velocity. No way would I handload in a defensive gun.
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June 29, 2006, 01:19 PM | #3 |
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Here we go again.
I do it for certain guns and I don't care what they think or might do. Either the shooting was justified or not, and I'm not about to shoot someone where it isn't clearly justified. But by no means, don't take my advice. Almost everyone in the board disagrees with me on this. They'll be along to explain the why's of it. If you have to ask, then you probably already know the answer. |
June 29, 2006, 01:38 PM | #4 |
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People like to talk about evil it is to roll your own defensive ammo, and how some overzealous prosecuter is going to pack your fudge in a courtroom if you do. If the shooting was justified, I don't see how it'll make a difference. Nor have I have ever seen somebody point to an actual case of somebody, who would otherwise be justified, being condemned because they rolled their own ammo.
Now if you were doing something questionable to your ammo, such as filling the cavities with mercury or cyanide or some other mall ninja type crap, then it's a different story. |
June 29, 2006, 01:48 PM | #5 |
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I carry handloads in many of my guns.
Just make sure that the recipe is documented, and you have more of the same batch back at home. If you use the ammo, forensics will want samples to test for muzzle blast patterns of powder, to check the distance the guy was shot from. Things like that. And keep the ammo similar to commercial offerings. At least that's my perspective on it. |
June 29, 2006, 01:50 PM | #6 |
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Loud and clear.
I didn't want to drag up a old topic, but I was talking this morning with a friend on the subject. He said his CPL/CCW class brought this up and the instructor said something about it being illegal, which I'm sure is wrong info. I figured this topic had been hit before. I thank you for the input. Virgil
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"Danger Itself Is The Best Remedy For Danger" Last edited by VirgilCaine; June 29, 2006 at 06:47 PM. |
June 29, 2006, 02:48 PM | #7 | |
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Having said that, my current SD ammo are all factory loads. Even if the risk of civil liability is remote, it is still non-zero. But, my SHTF stockpile that I am accumulating over time are handloads. After all, if the SHTF the last thing I'll be worried about are the lawyers.
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June 29, 2006, 02:58 PM | #8 |
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Yes, you are, buy something factory, it's not worth the million dollar lawsuit to save 40 or 50 bucks on ammo.
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June 29, 2006, 03:17 PM | #9 |
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Defense ammo
The best info I've seen on this so far was a challenge I saw in a magazine for someone to submit a case where reloads were even brought up as an issue much less landed anyone in trouble. No cases were identified-not one. Massad Ayoob famous gun writer seems credited in this myth that will never die, having pointed out he is considered an expert witness and he says Handloads will land you in court. That sounds all well and good but the articles I have read that were authored by him never gave one case to back up his opinion, however. Powder blast patters can be used to determine distance the person was shot from however, the advice posted to keep track of your recipe and have more available for testing if needed seems like sound advice to me. Me , Ill carry handloads, I agree justified is justified regardless of the gun or load.
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June 29, 2006, 06:06 PM | #10 | ||
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A justified shooting is a justified shooting... Unless it isn't. You shot the perp with a knife at 10 feet. The perp survives and claims he was 30 feet away. Remember, the 21ft. rule (Tueller drill)? Inside that distance, you're probably justified. Outside that distance... ?? Who does the Jury (or Judge) believe? Forensics will tell? Not unless your town has a good lab. And where it doesn't, your prosecutor or investigators may or may not send out the data and trace rounds to another lab. Count on them doing so. Be happy if they don't. So.... I generally load about 300 rnds at a time for defensive use. When I get down to the last 10 free rounds and a full gun, I load up another batch and fire everything in the old load. This way I always have enough to please the folks, if something untoward happens. Now this will probably save you in the criminal proceedings (we are assuming the shoot was good). Depends upon your state and its laws if it will save your bacon in the civil proceedings. Lately, several states have passed laws that eliminate the civil end, if the shoot is ruled justifiable in the criminal end. So there is even less of a chance of something bad happening to you in the aftermath of a shooting. If you live in one of the states that have rational gun laws, Mr. Ayoob will have to pedal his myths elswhere. Just for the record, I have never seen a case where the ammo actually played a role. Doesn't mean it hasn't, just that I have never read of it. |
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June 29, 2006, 08:02 PM | #11 |
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This question was asked several months ago and someone had brought up an article written by Mr. Ayoob. Shortly after Mr. Ayoob joined the thread, but whenever someone asked him a question about the article he told them to buy the magazine and read it. Since I don't buy gun magazines I looked it up on-line, and found it.
The case was about a man who was accused of shooting his wife. He claimed it was suicide. The only information was supplied by Mr. Ayoob who had been hired to testify on behalf of the defendant. On the information given it sounded as if the defendant was guilty as charged and the defense was grasping at straws and the argument made by Mr. Ayoob was totally asinine. But even worse was the conclusion Mr. Ayoob made about handloads for self defense based on the case since it wasn't even remotely related. Use what is available at the time. Get a good attorney later, you will need them no matter what you use. |
June 29, 2006, 09:04 PM | #12 | |
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First things first granted, but a little forethought never hurt and may keep one out of the poorhouse or the greybar hotel with just a little preperation. I hear ya. |
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June 29, 2006, 09:22 PM | #13 |
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As one of the prior post above said......
Get a good attorney later, you will need them no matter what you use. I have carried my own many times, but that dosen't mean it's a good idea. Load with new brass and componets and keep them in a new looking box, they may never know the difference. But it could be easier to just buy the new stuff if you can afford to practice with it too. I would worry more if I were driving my car fast in a rain storm with bald tires. If I crash (more likely than a gun fight) and injure $omeone, the lawyers will pick my pocket$ clean. Life becomes a bigger liability each and every day. They will get you whenever they can. I think I like the personal choice answer the best. IMO
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June 30, 2006, 09:28 AM | #14 |
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Ain't no myth, fellas
I'm afraid there's some erroneous info posted on this thread.
A search should find an EXHAUSTIVE discussion of this on The High Road. Two of the cases were subsequently published in American Handgunner a couple of issues ago. (I'm on the road and don't have the exact cover date at hand, but I'm sure someone on here with ready access can plug them in). In New Jersey v. Daniel Bias, a woman who had a history of attempting suicide was found by her husband with gun in hand. As he attempted to get it away from her, the revolver discharged, wounding her fatally. He had loaded it with very mild handloads which did not deposit GSR (gunshot residue) very far. The authorities noted that the handloads were put up in +P .38 casings, and did lab testing on the assumption that +P ammo had been used, which of course left gunshot residue to a much greater distance, outside arm's length. This led to their conclusion that he must have shot her. He was charged with murder. After three trials, which left him bankrupt and financially exhausted his family, he was found guilty of manslaughter and served several years in prison. He remains a convicted felon, prohibited from owning firearms. The other side successfully kept out GSR evidence with replications of his handload. Keeping your own records or sample batches is not enough, since the other side can argue that you literally manufactured the evidence. Factory ammo used in what is called exemplar testing is provided by the manufacturer, which is assumed by the courts to be a neutral, unbiased party. Bear in mind that opposing counsel will try to paint you as a liar in every respect, including this one. Ammunition remaining in the gun after the shooting probably will not be tested, since the firing of the ammo is destructive testing that destroys evidence. Both of the attorneys who represented Daniel Bias felt that had he simply loaded the revolver with factory ammo before he put it in the bedroom for self defense, he would have been spared this ordeal. The other case I cited was New Hampshire v. Sgt. James Kennedy, whose prosecution for aggravated assault came about after his pistol discharged and wounded a suspect who had grabbed it during an arrest. The prosecutor made a huge issue of Kennedy having loaded his service pistol with handloads (not against dept. regs at the time), considering that to be evidence of some sort of Rambo mentality. Kennedy was acquitted, but it was still an ordeal. The belief that only the justifiability of the shooting matters is an oversimplification of how these things actually occur. Prosecutions are often motivated by lack of understanding of shooting incident dynamics, or by purely political motivation. It is unwise to give a prosecutor, let alone a plaintiff's attorney, any sort of hook to hang unjust accusations upon. The GSR element in particular is important, since so many armed citizen self defense shootings occur at literally powder-burning distance. "Only justifiability matters" is how thinigs should be, not necessarily how things are. The very fact that you are in court after a justifiable shooting indicates that someone is accusing you of having acted unjustifiably. You want to be able to PROVE, with hard evidence such as GSR testing, that you are telling the truth. Without getting into other issues (relative reliability of handloads versus factory ammo, or the fact that most handloads have no track record in actual shootings), these are reasons enough to use handloads that duplicate factory ballistics for practice, and carry actual factory ammo in the gun. The choice is yours, but I suggest you make your choices based on fact. That handloads intended for self-defense have caused grief for decent people is indeed a fact, and not a myth. |
June 30, 2006, 06:42 PM | #15 |
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Two incidents. Could that be construed as isolated incidents?
I just think that there's better things to be concerned about. I hope nobody held onto any of the dreaded Black Talons, they'll getcha' with that too. |
June 30, 2006, 07:29 PM | #16 |
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Mas, I read the entire thread over at THR, as it was ongoing.
That thread prompted me to do some research here in Idaho. To date, not a single prosecutor nor a single Sheriff has had any knowledge of such a case in my state. I have written to them all. To date, I have replies from all but Ada, Blaine and Bonneville Counties. So... When traveling in Boise, Sun Valley or Idaho Falls, I may be at some risk. For the rest of Idaho... I'm willing to bet (my freedom and my life) that its a non-issue in this jurisdiction. Other states, other standards. |
June 30, 2006, 07:54 PM | #17 | |
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June 30, 2006, 08:00 PM | #18 |
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ANTIPITAS, the "outback" of Idaho is much different than other metropolitan areas of the country.
This isn't the first time you've bashed Mr Ayoob on this forum. I don't think that sits too well with your moderator title. If you have a problem with him then use your real name and come out and say it. Frankly, I have met Mr Ayoob and trust is judgement. He is a nationally recognized expert on self defense shootings and the laws that pertain to them. And then we come to you. Who are you? What is your experience? See my point? I was told that this was "the" premier gun forum on the net. That the members here are respectful of others and the discussions are civil. But I guess that doesn't pertain to the moderators now does it? I'll take the word of someone like Mr Ayoob anyday before I trust someone who claims to know what they are talking about. Facts is all that matters. Hearsay and opinions are just that. Bob |
June 30, 2006, 08:06 PM | #19 | |
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June 30, 2006, 08:09 PM | #20 |
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defence
I beleive Idaho has just passed a law protecting a citizen from lawsuits in selfdefence with firearns. Hopefully other states will or have soon.
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June 30, 2006, 08:14 PM | #21 |
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BobK,
For my edification, could you please point out what in post #16 you consider a "bash" of Mr. Ayoob? |
June 30, 2006, 09:01 PM | #22 |
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I'd be interested also, Bob. Where have I "bashed" Mr. Ayoob?
As for my real name. I had it in my sig line for a while when there was some confusion over some things I had written over at THR and at TAC. In both of those forums, I had decided to use my real name. Here, I just kept my pseudonym because it was less confusing. Look for "Al Norris" over at THR. That's me, and most regulers here know this. Since I also give you my city and state, it shouldn't be much trouble at all to locate my full address. The whole point to my post was that not all states are as contentious as the more populated states. Mr. Ayoob may or may not agree. (shrug) But I think it safe to say that here in the ""outback" of Idaho is much different than other metropolitan areas of the country." So what was the beef, again? |
June 30, 2006, 09:11 PM | #23 |
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"Mr. Ayoob will have to pedal his myths elsewhere". What kind of statement do you call that? Is that not disrespectful? I think it is. Hey, Ayoob does need me to defend him by any means. I just get tired of folks that think they are somebody special and can say whatever they want. So your name is Al. Nice to mean you. But that still don't mean squat. You show me the credentials of someone like Ayoob, Petty, Clapp, Vickers, Hackathorn, etc...... Then maybe I'll put some faith in what you say. Until then your just another moderator and gun toter. No better or worse than the rest of us. If I am wrong then please, please educate me.
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June 30, 2006, 09:45 PM | #24 |
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I will use handloads for SD, I don't consider it to be a big deal. I have stated this opinion many times here and elsewhere.
YOU do what YOU want, and I will do what I want. The sad part is that you will be put in front of 12 people that aren't smart enough to get out of jury duty just like I will should anything ever happen. There isn't much hope of getting out of it without financial ruin for the vast majority of us, but it beats the hell out of being dead. |
June 30, 2006, 09:55 PM | #25 |
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Antipitas: Al, you need to go back to the same sources and ask the other half of the question: how many shootings have they HAD that involved handloads? If there haven't been any, then the answer you got was meaningless. (My own observation over the years has been that very few self-defense shootings involve reloaded ammunition.) You also have not yet addressed what plaintiff's counsel is likely to do with it in a civil lawsuit.
Majic: Wish you'd been there in the courtroom to yell "BS!" at the judge and the prosecutor. Unfortunately, you weren't, and it went the way I told it. Edward: As a matter of fact, they WILL go after the Black Talons, thanks to the media's demonization of that round. Been there, seen that. Ain't peddling myths, fellas, just telling the straight stuff. You make your own choices. It isn't my future or my money that's on the line when someone takes the avoidable risks of carrying handloads for defensive purposes. |
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