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Old June 24, 2006, 02:15 PM   #26
Ares45
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This ain't sesame street. Forget counting.

I used to try counting rounds during IPSC matches. Even with a predetermined plan of action it's hard to keep up under mild stress. It'll never happen during a real life self defense shooting. You won't know whether you've fired 3 rounds or 13. Most LEO's involved in a shooting can't accurately recall how many shots were fired during the gun battle. Your brain has other priorities and will disregard anything not immediately necessary for survival. That includes everything from math skills to auditory exclusion and loss of fine motor skills.

The short answer is put rounds ON TARGET until the threat no longer exists. Then reload and be prepared to go again. The only thing you need to be thinking about is putting rounds on target.
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Old June 24, 2006, 02:41 PM   #27
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Shoot fast, to COM.

WHERE? The Center of mass.
WHEN? When the person becomes a threat to the life of innocent people.
HOW? Multiple shots as accurate as speed allows.
WHY? Because If i were an attacker, this would really suck.

This is just my Opinion and how i train to react to situations.
Im also starting to get into the Move and shoot thing, its harder than it sounds, but definintly worth the work.
I thimk COM shots are the most efficient, because bigger targets are "easier" to hit, and hits are what stop attackers, not near hits to the brain.
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Old June 24, 2006, 06:13 PM   #28
Ausserordeutlich
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When/if somebody forces me to use a weapon to defend myself or others, I can't fathom that religious, moral, or legal matters would pop in my mind. Shoot a lot until they stop. Usually, they'll be dead, and that would be the absolute best outcome for you and for society in general.
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Old June 24, 2006, 08:43 PM   #29
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"Most police departments teach their officers to DOUBLE TAP into the chest."

Actually, very few agencies teach double tap any more. Sure, you'll no doubt find the occasional agency that does but not if their ROs have been keeping up with updated training. The training today, and has been for a few years, is to continue shooting until the threat stops. If the threat stops after 1 shot then stop shooting. If you've fired 6 shots and the threat continues then keep firing.
One often reads posts about why the number of rds fired by police on average for each shooting has increased over the years. Those who haven't been involved in the training, and arm chair commandos, put their supposition in that it's because the police are bad shots. That's not it at all. The reason being is training has changed from double taps or 2 to the body and 1 to the head, then assess to what's been SOP for training of continue firing until the threat stops. Anyone who has been involved in a shooting situation will know that seldom does a person stop after being hit once. Even if that first hit is a fatal wound does not mean the threat will cease. They may continue as if not hit at all. Therefore, training today is keep putting rds in the threat until the threat quits being a threat.
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Old June 24, 2006, 11:10 PM   #30
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Untill they stop moving... yes.

But I fire a hammer pair right off the bat (double tap as fast as you can pull the trigger). I don't have time to figure out whether or not the first round did the job before the second round hits. Automatic, and yes, you asses but it's not an all day/smoke a cigerrate affair. Fire a hammered pair and if the target keeps coming fire more rounds. If he's down and out then search and assess for other threats before going back to a lowered alert state (and the alert carry for your firearm). I do this for everything, primary (rifle) or secondary (pistol). If I'm engaging at ranges of 100m or more (obviously with a rifle), then I'll slow the rate of fire and see the effects of my fire. Obviously a civie won't be firing at someone 100m away, but I'm infantry. That's just how I train and it works well for me.
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Old June 25, 2006, 12:45 AM   #31
Just_Parker
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someone at 21 feet with a knife, wait till they get closer. Then shoot them better they tried to harm you and died for it than try and hurt someone else. Il never understand this whole idea that if someone is trying to rob you better to let them have your money and everyone live personaly i think if you choose to rob someone getting shot should be one of those risks you should deal with.
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Old June 25, 2006, 10:56 AM   #32
wolfdog45
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If you are being attacked keep firing till the attacker stops attacking.
Simple.
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Old June 25, 2006, 01:05 PM   #33
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Quote:
someone at 21 feet with a knife, wait till they get closer
HUH?
You and I can cover 21 ft in about 1.5 seconds. So can a bad guy.
Do you have your gun in your hand or in a holster? reaction time is almost always slower than action that precipitates it.

21 ft and closer you're gonna get cut... badly.
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Old June 25, 2006, 03:45 PM   #34
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I didn't see the reason for triple tap posted so I guess I will reply with the "wearing a vest" theory .

If two to center mass is somewhat ineffective, the thought is that the perp may have a vest . Moving to a secondary position is then advisable. The head was thought then to be the best "other" location , but some teach the pelvic area as a better choice .
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Old June 25, 2006, 09:33 PM   #35
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You shoot until the threat is neutralized, be that two times or twenty.
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Old June 25, 2006, 09:48 PM   #36
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21 feet with a badguy who has a knife,.... yeah right depends on the situation

in my ccw class in AZ we watched a video that basically said, if you have your hand on your gun ready to draw your chances of getting your gun on target and delivering an accurate shot on a person running at you from 30 is virtually 0.... maybe this is crap but sounds pretty true to me...

as far a shooting goes, i practice shooting as rapidly as i can aquire a target until my gun is empty reload and repeat.... and for practical purposes i would take COM shots unless it was a very unusal situation since i am just your average joe... not in the military/police
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Old June 25, 2006, 10:03 PM   #37
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The class I took taught that a pistol is not a powerful weapon. Shots to the head are rarely effective. The skull is thick. Rounds to the head usually glance off. The only effective shots to the head must hit in the eyes or nasal cavity area. Very difficult to hit. Any place else is a crapshoot. Rounds should be placed between the nipples and the chin. As many as it takes for the threat to stop. Shots to the center of mass will do little to stop the threat. My instructor spent much of his LEO career investigating shootings. He relates that often after a shooting incident an officer will look down and see the blood, and exclaim "Oh, crap, I have been shot". If you have been forced to make the decision to use your weapon, use it. Don't screw around or you may be the ultimate casualty.

If I ever have to fire (God forbid that should ever happen), It will be rapid fire to the area between the nipples and chin until the BG turns and runs or goes to the ground. This is my mindset, and this is how I practice.
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Old June 25, 2006, 10:10 PM   #38
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If you have to think and count you are not going to make it. The only decision you make in a gunfight is to shoot. Once the that decision is made, training takes over. If you haven't trained enough that your reflexes take over you are going to be standing there jumping around like a monkey in a red ant bed and you probably won't pull the trigger much less hit anything.
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Old June 26, 2006, 12:29 AM   #39
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Fire a NSR (Non standard responce.. 3-5 rounds)COM.. These shot don't need to be touching.. If they are speed up.. Spread the love around the COM.. Hit as many pipes and pumps as you can.. If target is still standing / still in your sight picture place one or more in the head..

Target no longer in sight picture? Is he down? Better question is he DONE? Or did he just hit the deck when rounds started flying?

Ok he is done.. Does he have any friends? yes/ no?

Do I need to reload? YES

Am I ok? Just a quick glance from wrist to feet back to wrist.. Your looking for blood.. You may not know you were hit..

And all this should be done while on the move and with the use of cove if possable!

A lot to think about.. Even more to think about when you add sight picture, trigger reset, recoil control, malf's ect...

Train, train TRAIN!
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Old June 26, 2006, 07:41 AM   #40
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I'm an older duffer, age 70, I'm in pretty good physical condition and still mentally sharp---but---reaction time and visual aquity really has gone down hill as I age.
I spent 30 years in the military and trained rather extensively with all types of firearms and I can vouch for the fact that a handgun is the least desireable weapon for self defense. Having said that, we can't conceal and carry shotguns or rifles so we have to make do with pistols.
Perhaps no longer subscribed to but years ago I was educated on the "Rule Of Threes". That being that most civilian gunfights are fought at a distance of three feet, with three shots fired and is over in three seconds. So at my age, with diminished sight and reaction time, I have to click off as many rounds as possible to neutralize a B/G. Again at my age, the odds are heavily in favor of the B/G and I'll probably lose but I'm comfortable knowing he's gonna get bit once or twice. I train for a double tap in the upper chest then work down from there (a moving head's too small of a target), a .40S&W round will break a pelvis and drop him in his tracks, also a 40S&W in the gonads may not incapacitate him but it will make him wonder why he initiated the fight in the first place.
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Old June 26, 2006, 08:21 AM   #41
Ausserordeutlich
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RE: Permitting a guy with a knife @ 21 ft. to get closer, isn't the purpose of this thread something to do with self-defense; not how to commit suicide?
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Old June 26, 2006, 09:10 AM   #42
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Shoot as fast as you can hit center of mass of the target provided until the threat has stopped. Reload and scan / cover. Kick away any weapon still in the possession of your threat as you continue to cover. Call for EMS and police as you continue to cover. Then call your lawyer.
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Old June 26, 2006, 10:05 AM   #43
stephen426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoscoeC
The class I took taught that a pistol is not a powerful weapon. Shots to the head are rarely effective. The skull is thick. Rounds to the head usually glance off. The only effective shots to the head must hit in the eyes or nasal cavity area. Very difficult to hit. Any place else is a crapshoot. Rounds should be placed between the nipples and the chin. As many as it takes for the threat to stop.
Roscoe,

I hope you realize that many firearms instructors fluff up their credentials to give themselves more credibility. They tout their opinions as stone cold facts. If you are not using a tiny pocket gun shooting underpowered rounds (anything less than 9mm), head shots are VERY EFFECTIVE. It is possible that the round may hit at a glancing angle and not penetrate, but practically any shot (again with 9mm and up) that hits at a perpendicular angle will penetrate. There are always exceptions to the rule but don't think a head shot won't kill you. Personally, I'd prefer to get hit with a COM shot versus a head shot any day... Actually, I'd prefer to not get shot at all!

While the shot you described will likely hit the heart or lungs, it will not instantly incapacitate someone unless you hit the spinal chord. Someone who is drugged up or running on pure adrenaline may continue to fight even if they are mortally injured. Continuing to take COM shots even after the first few are ineffective is useless at best and deadly (for you) at worst. The only instantly incapacitating shot (according to FBI SWAT/HRT) is one that destroys the medulla oblongata which lies behind the eyes. According to them, that shot is INSTANTLY incapacitating and someone will drop IMMEDIATELY. (Do not pass GO, Do not collect $200). This is used when the suspect has a gun to someone's head or some kind of detonation device.

The best shot is still the center of mass (since it is easier to hit), but if those shots are ineffective, go for the head.
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Old June 26, 2006, 11:33 AM   #44
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I've never had to shoot anybody, but if I had to the number of shots I would fire before stopping and evaluating the situation would depend on the gun I was carrying. With my Springer Mil-Spec it would be 9 shots, my Beretta 96 would be 13 and my Sig P228 would be 16 shots.

When I practice at the range I empty my weapon as fast as I can can while still keeping my shots on COM. Unless the bad guy drops out of my sight picture, I'm not likely to stop firing until slide lock. Bullets are cheap, so I don't see any reason to be stingy with them.

Remember, it's always better to give than receive.
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Old June 26, 2006, 01:13 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATW525
When I practice at the range I empty my weapon as fast as I can can while still keeping my shots on COM. Unless the bad guy drops out of my sight picture, I'm not likely to stop firing until slide lock. Bullets are cheap, so I don't see any reason to be stingy with them.
Good defense attorneys are not...

ATW525,

It is good to practice getting your shots on target quickly, but going for slide lock may not be looked upon favorably by the police, a district attorney, and if it gets to it, a jury. For me, I would say shoot until the bad guy's weapon is no longer pointing at me. This may be because he has dropped his weapon, he is on the ground, or he "surrenders" (hands up). I would keep my gun trained on him and have him kick the gun away. I would then order him to lie face down with his hands interlocked over his head. I would then call the police and an ambulance. This is assuming that he can comply because he isn't dead already.

I don't believe in "finishing" shots as this crosses the line between self defense and murder. You can say that dead people don't sue, but you need to remember that their families still can. Besides, that finishing shot may be the difference between a good self defense shooting and getting arrested and prosecuted.
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Old June 26, 2006, 01:45 PM   #46
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^ +1 Shoot until the threat is stopped.
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Old June 26, 2006, 02:19 PM   #47
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Quote:
It is good to practice getting your shots on target quickly, but going for slide lock may not be looked upon favorably by the police, a district attorney, and if it gets to it, a jury.
I can't say I'll be taking the time to ponder the politically correct number of bullets when it's my life on the line. As they say, it's better to be judged by twelve than carried by six. I want to put the maximum amount of lead into the other guy in the minimum amount of time, because I will be the one left standing when it's over.

Going into it with the mindset of shooting to slidelock just makes the most sense to me. If he happens to hit the ground or flee before I run out of bullets, then good for him. If he's still on his feet and in my line of sight when I hit slidelock, then I'll evaluate whether he's still threat when I'm reloading and moving to cover.

I most definitely am not advocating finishing people off while they lay bleeding on the ground, however. Nor am I saying you should keep shooting until the gun is empty regardless of the situation. If it's readily apparant the threat has been stopped then it's time to cease fire.
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Old June 26, 2006, 02:30 PM   #48
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I understand what your saying. You just have to be careful what you say infront of your friends and peers because a prosecuter will ask them what you have said in the past. Anytime ANYONE asks me that question my answer is and will be - Shoot at the center of mass at the largest target provided and shoot to stop. Shoot until the threat is down. And Good lord, If you shoot a finishing shot after the threat has ceased you WILL be prosecuted. Shooting to stop is self defense. A finishing shot is MURDER. If the threat takes one hit....... If the threat sees my gun and gives up, drops the weapon and complies or runs away I do not fire. My weapon is to stop the threat, Not kill.
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Old June 26, 2006, 02:45 PM   #49
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ATW525,

The problem arises when you revert to what you practice. I fully agree that it is better you than him, but I don't want a good shoot to turn into a criminal case against me. While you may tout the phrase "better judged by 12 than carried by 6", I believe there is a third option which is neither being judged by the 12 or being carried by the 6.

I guess this is when we start having debates about why anything less than a .45 acp is useless and why anything less is asking for a failure to stop. Then i expect someone to say that handguns are useless and that only shotguns and rifles are of any defensive value. I certainly hope it doesn't go down that path...
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Old June 26, 2006, 03:18 PM   #50
Bob O
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One or two BGs = three's.
Two or more BGs = two's.

I always practice in three's, so I intend to shoot in three's.
With more than two BGs enough ammo may be a problem so I'd go for two's.
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