The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Revolver Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 9, 2006, 04:36 PM   #26
cje1980
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2004
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,385
BLKLABMAN, I know what you are saying. The 357Magnum was the first Magnum and is still a very powerful weapon. For 20 years it was distinctly the most powerful handgun in the world. It definitely packs a lot more punch than your typical semi-auto cartridges. When it was first created it was used to take Deer, Elk, Caribou, dangerous cats, even Grizzly and Polar Bears. Now days people call it marginal for even Deer. Elgin Gates even stopped a charging Cape Buffalo with a shot to the head with a 357Mag. I know of no animal that is more dangerous than a Cape Buffalo. You see shot placement is more important than caliber. In those old days there wasn't even any expanding hunting ammo either, strictly solids. Did animals become tougher to kill these days or am I missing something? Where you shoot something is much more important than what you shoot it with. A bigger caliber won't make up for the lack of shooting skills. The average shooter will master the 357Magnum much quicker than the 44Magnum for several reasons. I can't think of a more practical and versatile HG cartridge available today than the 357Magnum for the vast majority of shooters. If I could only have one handgun it would definitely be a 357Magnum. Using the right ammo for the task makes it a sufficient performer. The link below summarizes what has happened to the expectations of handgunners in the 20th century. Its kind of funny.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/825_magnum.htm
cje1980 is offline  
Old June 9, 2006, 04:44 PM   #27
cje1980
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2004
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,385
Quote:
But in this particular case bullet design was more important than power. And I can remember wondering what the 9mm bullet would have done to the west had it been used in a 357 revolver.
I know of no 9mm round that can penetrate more than a 180gr. HC hunting slug going 1300+fps. At one point there was a steel core 357Mag load that would penetrate armor and other significant barriers. They must have been comparing a 124gr. 9mm NATO load to a JSP 357 load or something like that. The critical thing here is bone penetration and penetration at various angles. That is something that the football shaped 9mm FMJ slug doesn't excel at.
cje1980 is offline  
Old June 9, 2006, 05:44 PM   #28
dave0520
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2005
Location: Philadelphia suburbs
Posts: 394
I agree cje1980, pointy bullets like the 9mm are good for poking holes through metal, but if you want to get through things like hard, yet brittle bear skull, you need a heavy, hard cast, wadcutter-type bullet to smash its way through.
__________________
si vis pacem, parabellum
dave0520 is offline  
Old June 9, 2006, 06:16 PM   #29
Bullrock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,624
There was an incident in Rangely, Maine about a year ago regarding a little old Black Bear that got out of control in a semi populated area, and was threatening some folks.

As I remember, the local police officer arrived on the scene and emptied his .357 into the bear, then ran like hell back to his cruiser for his shotgun, which finally proved fatal.

Personally, I would choose a 9mm with an 18 round capacity, over a .357 Six. A .44 magnum will do a much better job than either, and leave you to enjoy shooting .44 Spl's...
Bullrock is offline  
Old June 9, 2006, 07:00 PM   #30
357 Plato
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 14, 2006
Posts: 178
As I stated I know nothing about hunting or what is required to kill a bear.

And therefore I have no reason to doubt that the 180gr HC hunting slug is better than any 9mm bullet when it comes to penetrating a bear.

What I found interesting about the Swedish test was that even a very powerful round would be useless if the bullet wasn’t right for the task.

I have read a lot of threads about bear guns. And they all seem to be about caliber.

But as you and others have pointed out, you need to consider other factors as well.

It was not a standard 9mm they were testing. I tried one in my Peters Stahl and it slammed my 6” heavy slide against the slide stop. It was way more powerful than the standard 9mm I normally use.

Btw I like the idea that wild life can become immune to 44 magnums.
357 Plato is offline  
Old June 10, 2006, 11:33 AM   #31
cje1980
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2004
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,385
Quote:
As I remember, the local police officer arrived on the scene and emptied his .357 into the bear, then ran like hell back to his cruiser for his shotgun, which finally proved fatal.
Shot placement? Bullet type? I can't draw any type of accurate conclusion by the incident you described. I know of many documented incidents where a 357 has done a fine job, even against grizzlies. Its not the weapon but the person using it that will determine the outcome. Running away from a bear is the absolute worst thing to do. The internet is a large source of misinformation, do you have a link? If a police officer was killed it would undoubtedly been documented. I did some keyword searches for this incident and wasn't able to find anything. One thing I find a little weird is that the incident was supposedly a year ago but the police officer was carrying a 357 revolver? Judging by the very fact that it was a police officer I can already tell you that there is a 99% chance he was using JHPs and most likely of the 125gr. variety, which everyone on this thread has summed up is a pretty poor choice against a bear. If you stoke a 357Mag revolver with 180gr. HC slugs moving 1200+fps you are as safe as can be expected with a handgun. The rest lies on your shooting ability to put the slugs where they need to go. A firearm is a tool used to defend yourself, that's all. Just because you have a firearm doesn't mean that you are guaranteed to survive every confrontation. You will survive if you use proper tactics and preparation combined with good shooting skills and using the right load for the task. Just because I have a hammer doesn't mean I can build a house. Just because I have a guitar doesn't mean I know how to play it.

Quote:
Personally, I would choose a 9mm with an 18 round capacity, over a .357 Six. A .44 magnum will do a much better job than either, and leave you to enjoy shooting .44 Spl's...
Well you better tell that to the hundreds of hunters who have taken Black Bears with 357s. You better tell that to Elgin Gates, who killed a charging 2,000 pound Cape Buffalo inclined on doing him serious harm. So you're telling me the 357 is capable of bringing down a Cape Buffalo, which on average is twice as big as the largest bear species on earth, but it won't kill a 300lb Black Bear. I think you are missing the point. Its not about the caliber its about shot placement and bullet construction. A 9mm is not going to penetrate a bear skull as well as a heavy HC 357 hunting slug will. It doesn't matter if you shoot a bear 6 times or 18 times, if you use the wrong bullet for the job or don't hit the bear where it hurts, you're dead. The 9mm is a poor choice for reasons previously discussed. That football shaped FMJ bullet is just simply going to glance off a bear skull. A 44Mag won't make up for poor shooting or poor choice of bullet construction. If the police officer had shot the bear 6 times with 180gr. JHP 44Mag the outcome would have been exactly the same. Caliber does not matter, shot placement and adequate penetration are what matters. If you put the right bullet in the right place, you will be fine. If you don't you won't be fine and it doesn't matter if you have a 357 or a 500. You can't miss fast enough to survive a confrontation. While the 44Mag is a better choice, it is not really for beginners who do not reload. Sure you can practice with 44Spls but where do find 44Spls that don't cost at least twice as much as 38Spls if you don't reload? The originator of this thread doesn't come across as the type of person who is going to invest in reloading equipment and all the other things that are involved with reloading. He appears to be looking for something that is practical and cheap to shoot, something the 44Mag is not.
cje1980 is offline  
Old June 10, 2006, 11:55 AM   #32
cje1980
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2004
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,385
Quote:
I have read a lot of threads about bear guns. And they all seem to be about caliber.

But as you and others have pointed out, you need to consider other factors as well.
Yes my friend. I think we are on the same page. Caliber doesn't matter. Choosing the right bullet for the task and putting that bullet where it needs to go is what settles it. I remain convinced that with the right bullet, the 357Mag with proper shot placement will offer adequate protection from any animal in the lower 48 states. I would want something larger in Alaska but still wouldn't feel terribly undergunned. If a proper shot from a 357 can take down a Cape Buffalo, there is no doubt in my mind it will take down a Black Bear. I dont' worry as much about what caliber I'm packing than my ability to put the bullet in the boiler room. I'm an avid outdoorsman and always feel much more threatened by humans than any wild animal. In the woods of Colorado, I feel quite comfortable packing a 4" Ruger GP100 with Fed 180gr HC slugs, although I'm thinking about trying Double Tap's new 180gr. HC load that gets 1300fps from a 4" barrel. They also have a 200gr. HC slug at 1200fps. That will definitely do in any Black Bear that I will come across. I know Buffalo Bore has a slightly hotter load but its about $1 a round and don't think I would end up practicing with it much to feel comfortable with my shooting ability on a charging bear. I usually alternate the cylinder with JHPs and HC bullets so that I have effective human and cougar medicine mixed with bear skull smashing monsters. Usually 3JHPs and 3HC in a cylinder. From the research I have done, I feel well armed considering I also tend to have a 9mm with 15rd magazines as well as a hunting knife with a 6" fixed blade as a back up.
cje1980 is offline  
Old June 10, 2006, 02:52 PM   #33
Bullrock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,624
Quote:
cje1980, I can't draw any type of accurate conclusion by the incident you described.
I didn't ask you to! I shared a story that actually happened over a year ago in a tiny town in the western mountains of Maine. I don't recall the newspaper article mentioning shot placement.

In fact, I don't ever recall reading a newspaper article regarding the killing of any wild animal in these parts where shot placement was reported.

I think any experienced gunman going after bear with a revolver would choose a .44 magnum over a .357 every time.

Personally, I'd take along a high powered long gun.
Bullrock is offline  
Old June 10, 2006, 03:17 PM   #34
Bullrock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,624
I found this in the general forum. A real life experience about killing a bear with a .40 Glock...Great reading...http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212982
Bullrock is offline  
Old June 10, 2006, 03:18 PM   #35
cje1980
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2004
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,385
Quote:
I think any experienced gunman going after bear with a revolver would choose a .44 magnum over a .357 every time.
True but no experienced gunman or outdoorsman would ever choose a 9mm over a 357 either. In fact most people that are knowledgeable about bears recommend bear spray over a handgun period. The originator of this thread didn't say he was going after bear. Sure if I was going after bear, a 44Mag or 454Cas would be a better choice and I tend to use my Ruger RedHawk in 44Mag when doing so, but nobody is talking about bear hunting. Remember that these calibers are not for every handgunner though. They take a while to learn and be effective with. He was just looking for something that is practical that would be a better choice than a 9mm in the event that he were to be attacked by a bear. Are you trying to say that shot placement doesn't matter? If the article read, "Police officer shoots bear 6 times in the head with 357 Revolver, while being mauled to death", you might be able to discount the 357 as an effective defense caliber for bears. Without knowing what load was used or where the shots were placed there is no way any rational person can draw a conclusion about the effectiveness of the caliber as a whole. Regarding the policeman getting killed by the bear, I'm sure that came down to using the wrong load for the task. Hunting bear and defending yourself from bear are two different things. Both require penetration but when hunting you are going for the vitals, which requires that you make a bigger hole to incapacitate faster. That is where the bigger calibers come in handy. When defending yourself from a bear all you need is a bullet that will penetrate a bear skull or break down a shoulder. A 180-200gr. HC 357 slug will do that. I'm doubtful that a 9mm slug will. A bullet to the brain is a bullet to the brain,it doesn't matter if it is .357, .429, or .308, the bear is going to die. Sure many 9mm pistols have twice the capacity of a 6-7 shot revolver but also keep in mind that a 357 loaded properly for bear is pushing twice the energy levels of the 9mm. Excluding of course the hot +p+ JHPs that are of no use in this circumstance.
cje1980 is offline  
Old June 10, 2006, 05:05 PM   #36
BLKLABMAN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2005
Location: Georgia
Posts: 230
Bullrock,
The .44mag is not needed for Black Bears. A person may use a .44mag, but for the extra weight, flash, bang, and expense you gain nothing. I stopped using my .44mag on Blacks years ago. The 9mm is my last choice for defense against a human, and not on my list for defense against a Blackie.
About the .357mag.
The .357mag will easily(especially 180gr LFN's) kill a Black Bear. The .357mag easily killed a sow, that charged a friend. I have hunted and killed 14 Black Bears with a 4" .357mag over the years. Friends all use the .357mag, and have taken alot more Bears than that over the years. Many very experienced bear guides prefer the .357mag.
Black Bears are a part of everday life where I live. East TN Mountains. Fish and Game, is all the time having to remove a trouble maker. Blacks are not zombies, and the .357mag is very Proven round with dealing with them.
About the story.
I am glad the guy and his family is ok, but the extra commentary made me laugh.
Thing's such as join the IDPA..... mindset.. you have to have proper mindset. and the I was taught all the right thing's in my CCW class.
He was dealing with a Black Bear not an armed intruder(s), or a horde of zombies.
Most people (especially rural living hunters or farmers) would have shot and killed the bear, called Fish and Game(they would in turn, contact the Police), and that would have been the end of it. No big deal.
In the second post he simply wated to clear up some un-truths that were being said about what happened. I and everyone else understand that.
Glad he's ok, all the extra commentary did give me a good laugh.

Last edited by BLKLABMAN; June 10, 2006 at 05:37 PM.
BLKLABMAN is offline  
Old June 10, 2006, 06:32 PM   #37
Bullrock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,624
Quote:
The .44mag is not needed for Black Bears. A person may use a .44mag, but for the extra weight, flash, bang, and expense you gain nothing. I stopped using my .44mag on Blacks years ago. The 9mm is my last choice for defense against a human, and not on my list for defense against a Blackie.
BLKLABMAN, now tell me something I don't know. Do you and cje1980 give anyone a break on this thread, or are your opinions the only ones that count? I didn't say I use 9mm to hunt bear! This is what I said...

Quote:
Personally, I would choose a 9mm with an 18 round capacity, over a .357 Six. A .44 magnum will do a much better job than either, and leave you to enjoy shooting .44 Spl's...
Do either of you ever use paragraphs when you write, or do you always glob your opinions one on top of the other?

I really don't care how many important gun people you know, or their opinions. I don't care how much hunting you have done, or where! Where I live Black Bear are not usually hostile or aggressive, but they can wreak havoc when they are.

In my neck of the woods there is an over abundance of wildlife, and I have a couple of years or so experience in the wild.

The farm where I grew up was complete with outside plumbing and kerosene lamps. We made our living logging with teams of horses. We got our milk from the cows we raised, and our eggs from our chickens.

We ate what we hunted, and that didn't include bear. I prefer to carry my 29-2 when I'm in the wild (which isn't very far from my front door). I don't need a lecture from either of you on calibre, shot placement, or what to carry, so save it for someone else! I was just trying to tell a story about a real bear incident.

You prefer .357's, I prefer .44 Mag's. You're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine! That should end the BS!
Bullrock is offline  
Old June 10, 2006, 07:33 PM   #38
FALshootist
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2002
Posts: 589
Use basic common sense in the woods and you won't need any gun in the woods for any wild animals. People are a whole different matter. A 357 magnum will work fine for what you need.

Although I have 44 magnums, I usually will carry a semi auto (9mm, 40 S&W or 10mm) or 357 magnum with 158 grain soft point bullets. Here in Florida we have bear, lion, alligator and wild pig. In 25 years I've seem mostly alligator and have never had a problem with any animals.

When I was a kid years ago, my Dad told me all I really had to worry about in the woods or swamp was other people, and I've always found this to be true.
__________________
"Iwoke up this morning and got myself a beer. The future is uncertain and the end is always near."
FALshootist is offline  
Old June 11, 2006, 06:53 AM   #39
BLKLABMAN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2005
Location: Georgia
Posts: 230
Q.---BLKLABMAN, now tell me something I don't know. Do you and cje1980 give anyone a break on this thread, or are your opinions the only ones that count?
A.--- I will listen to anyone, who has "first hand knowledge" of the matter being talked about. Anyone else I disregard For example. If I asked a question on Moose hunting, and got 100 replies. Yet out of those 100 replies, only two had ever been Moose hunting. The rest were simply armchair commando's who posted because they had a hunch, or saw something on TV, or read something in a magazine
I would take those 98 worthless replies for what they are worth, write them off, and flush them down the toilet.

Q.-----I didn't say I use 9mm to hunt bear! This is what I said...
Quote.Personally, I would choose a 9mm with an 18 round capacity, over a .357 Six. A .44 magnum will do a much better job than either, and leave you to enjoy shooting .44 Spl's...
A.--- If you re-read you will see that I NEVER said you hunted with a 9mm. I responed to your quote of "rather having a 9mm with 33 rounds" , by saying I think the 9mm is marginal for protection humans and not a viable choice against animals.

Q.---Do either of you ever use paragraphs when you write, or do you always glob your opinions one on top of the other?
A.--- I much prefer to glob. Much like youself.

Q.----I really don't care how many important gun people you know, or their opinions. I don't care how much hunting you have done, or where!
A.--- You have no use for the opinions of people who hunt them, and/ or guides who deal with Black Bear for a living? That tells me ALL I need to know about you, right there.

Q---In my neck of the woods there is an over abundance of wildlife, and I have a couple of years or so experience in the wild.
The farm where I grew up was complete with outside plumbing and kerosene lamps. We made our living logging with teams of horses. We got our milk from the cows we raised, and our eggs from our chickens.
A--- I could care less about your chidhood.

Q-----We ate what we hunted, and that didn't include bear. I prefer to carry my 29-2 when I'm in the wild (which isn't very far from my front door). I don't need a lecture from either of you on calibre, shot placement, or what to carry, so save it for someone else! I was just trying to tell a story about a real bear incident.
A--- You have NEVER been bear hunting, and as stated above and do not care about the gear experienced black bear guides or hunters use. Don't worry not a single person will lecture you, with your vast knowledge of the subject matter.
The story was interesting reading, until the guy decided to give the extra commentary. When he did this, it became a good laugh.


Q----You prefer .357's, I prefer .44 Mag's. You're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine! That should end the BS!
A--- I have found the .44mag to be pointless, for anthing(human or animal..self defense or hunting) in the Eastern United States. If you like it, then more power to you.
BS? What I always find to be BS, is people who give advice on subject's they know nothing about.

Want to discuss something fun??
Such as how the .45LC, makes the .44mag look like a weak redheaded step child.
BLKLABMAN is offline  
Old June 11, 2006, 07:23 AM   #40
Renfield
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 1, 2006
Location: just down the street
Posts: 599
I was born and lived in Alaska for the first 18 years of my life

and can honestly say that if you plan on taking on a bear with anything less than a 12 gauge pump shotgun, you are crazier than you look
__________________
"Tricks and treachery are the practice of fools, that don't have brains enough to be honest"
Benjamin Franklin

"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends"
Martin Luther King, Jr.

"Orators are most vehement when their cause is weak" Marcus Tullius Cicero

Renfield is offline  
Old June 11, 2006, 11:03 AM   #41
cje1980
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2004
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,385
Quote:
I was born and lived in Alaska for the first 18 years of my life

and can honestly say that if you plan on taking on a bear with anything less than a 12 gauge pump shotgun, you are crazier than you look
Sprinfield, MA is a long ways from Alaska and the bear species is completely different. In Alaska the typical male bear is usually at least 600lbs, where Black Bears in the lower 48 states rarely get over 300-400lbs. I agree in Alaska I would want a rifle backed up by a 45LC loaded hot. It simply isn't necessary for Black Bears though. Black Bears behave completely differently than Brownies. The latter is a very territorial beast that are even known to eat their own species. Black Bears can usually be scared away.
cje1980 is offline  
Old June 11, 2006, 11:43 AM   #42
357 Plato
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 14, 2006
Posts: 178
Renfield: I think that the question is not whether you would like to go after a bear. But rather, what to carry just in case a bear decides to go after you.

If I was planning on going after a bear, I would want as much firepower as possible – a Gatling machine gun comes to mind – just joking. But that is just me. I would probably spend more time messing up my pants than shooting anyway. At least I can´t be sure that I wouldn’t.

And I think that most people are like me – very unsure what they will really do in a close encounter with a dangerous animal like a bear.

If I was planning on spending a Sunday afternoon in the woods with a very remote chance of running in to a bear, I would find it more realistic to carry a 357 magnum revolver than a shot gun.

If on the other hand I was going to a place with a greater chance of running in to an angry bear, I would not go alone. I would bring my friends: Jungle Jim, Indiana Jones and a half dozen other known gun slingers – just in case.
357 Plato is offline  
Old June 11, 2006, 12:07 PM   #43
Bullrock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,624
Get a Kitty!!!

The mods are probably going to hammer me for this, but I can't help it. An excellent alternative to any gun at all is Jack, a 15 pound white and orange cat, who lives in West Milford, N.J.

(AP) has a story with photo in this mornings paper (The Star Ledger of Newark) about Jack not liking other critters on his property.

It seems as though Jack tree'd a 300 Lb. black bear for 15 minutes. When the bear decended and tried to run away, Jack tree'd it again. Jack's owner finally called Jack off and the bear scurried back to the woods.

There is a great photo of Jack sitting under the tree looking up at the bear. So if you are having difficulty with black bear invading your turf, don't worry about which gun to use. Get a cat at your local shelter and train it to tree bahr!!!
Bullrock is offline  
Old June 11, 2006, 12:18 PM   #44
Renfield
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 1, 2006
Location: just down the street
Posts: 599
you guys (hopefully) are talking about a handgun to back up your long guns..I would look long and hard at a 10mm or even a .40 S&W caliber because a bear isn't sporting enough to let you reload after you empty a cylinder (or magazine) full of rounds into his furry backside
__________________
"Tricks and treachery are the practice of fools, that don't have brains enough to be honest"
Benjamin Franklin

"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends"
Martin Luther King, Jr.

"Orators are most vehement when their cause is weak" Marcus Tullius Cicero

Renfield is offline  
Old June 11, 2006, 12:31 PM   #45
cje1980
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2004
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,385
Quote:
you guys (hopefully) are talking about a handgun to back up your long guns..I would look long and hard at a 10mm or even a .40 S&W caliber because a bear isn't sporting enough to let you reload after you empty a cylinder (or magazine) full of rounds into his furry backside
Renfield, do some research on Black Bear attacks. The last 6 documented bear confrontations in California were solved without even using a firearm at all. MA is not AK and the animals aren't the same either. Brown Bears are much more territorial and aggressive than Black Bears. Not to mention about twice the size.

I haven't seen a documented incident where a well placed shot from any handgun failed to stop a bear, whether in AK, CA, or anywhere else in the country. If a well placed shot from a 357 will stop a Cape Buffalo in its tracks, the same shot and load will also stop any bear on earth. I know of an incident where a guy could not deploy his 12ga quickly enough and actually threw his shotgun at the bear. The bear was stopped with a 9mm, which is a lot less powerful than a 357 Magnum. This incident was in AK. Sometimes a rifle isn't always the best choice and it isn't always practical. A semi-auto is more likely to jam up in the wild than a revolver and the 10mm is no more powerful than the 357, while the 357 will actually out penetrate the 10mm. I can't always bring a rifle on every hike I go on. I imagine the originator of this thread would have an even tougher time as he lives in the gun control capital of the country.
cje1980 is offline  
Old June 11, 2006, 12:49 PM   #46
Renfield
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 1, 2006
Location: just down the street
Posts: 599
Quote:
This is from the Dornaus & Dixon 1984 Bren Ten catalog:

The Norma factory loaded 10mm Auto cartridge is a center fire, rimless, brass cased, straight walled, large caliber pistol cartridge. It measures 1.250 inches in overall length with the bullet measuring 10.16 (.40") millimeters in diameter. It uses a special Norma powder designed expressly for optimum muzzle velocity while maintaining safe chamber pressures, and uses a standard .210" diameter large pistol primer. The bullet is a copper alloy full jacket, lead core design, and has a truncated cone shape (Jacketed Truncated Cone or JTC). Bullet weight is 200 granis (13 grams practical). Out of a Norma 5" test barrel (the length of the Bren Ten barrel, full-sized models), muzzle velocity is 1200 feet per second, and produces a moderate average chamber pressure of 37,000 c.u.p. (copper units of pressure). Kinetic energy at the muzzle is 640 foot pounds. Relative Stopping Power on the Hatcher Scale is 72 (30 R.S.P. on the Cooper Short Form). The 10mm Auto moves the striking pendulum farther than the .45 ACP from the same distance, out of the same gun (the Bren Ten shoots both rounds). Because of the unique design of the Bren Ten, the 10mm Auto cartridge has the felt recoil of the .45 ACP 230 grain hardball round out of a Colt Government Model, yet it retains more kinetic energy at 100 yards than the .45 ACP has at the muzzle. The large bullet cross sectional density, along with the velocity and kinetic energy, combine to produce a truly effective cartridge. Ballistically, the closest comparable cartridge to the 10mm Auto is the .41 Magnum. The 10mm Auto cartridge has been designed and developed to be the optimum combat pistol cartridge.
from this link http://www.bren-ten.com/id7.html

sometimes bears are crazy..such as mending up from a fight with another bear or healing up from a gunshot..they're a little more desperate and alot more likely to not react as a normal bear would sometimes they get hit by cars and trucks and have to be sneakier to make up for decreased mobility while on the mend..these are the ones most likely to be encountered
__________________
"Tricks and treachery are the practice of fools, that don't have brains enough to be honest"
Benjamin Franklin

"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends"
Martin Luther King, Jr.

"Orators are most vehement when their cause is weak" Marcus Tullius Cicero

Renfield is offline  
Old June 11, 2006, 01:06 PM   #47
cje1980
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2004
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,385
Quote:
from this link http://www.bren-ten.com/id7.html
What was the point of that? I think we all know what the 10mm is. My point is that the 10mm is a ballistic twin of the 357Mag. The 10mm can launch 180gr and 200gr projectiles at the same speed the 357Mag can. The 180-200gr. bullets from the 357 are obviously going to penetrate much better, which is what you want on a bear. Although the 10mm's ballistics look good on paper, its short case length prohibits the use of bullets of sufficient sectional density for heavy penetration. It takes a 200gr. 10mm slug to match the sectional density of a 158gr 357 slug and that is pretty much the max for the 10mm. The 180-200gr. 357 bullets are simply unmatched by anything the 10mm can dish out.

The 10mm is not equal to the 41Mag. The 10mm when loaded to max barely equals watered down 41Mag loads. The 41Mag can be loaded in excess of 1,000ft/lbs of energy. Its quite obvious that the 41Mag has a significantly longer case, thus it holds more powder and longer bullets. Its fair to say that when loaded to max the 357Mag and 10mm are about equal in energy levels. The 357Mag has more desirable characteristics for bear defense though. Better penetration and the use of HC lead bullets with large meplats. I don't think a Glock 20 is going to feed HC lead bullets where the meplate is larger than 70% of the bullet diameter. A revolver doesn't have to feed bullets only fire them.
cje1980 is offline  
Old June 11, 2006, 01:16 PM   #48
Renfield
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 1, 2006
Location: just down the street
Posts: 599
argue with somebody else pally I know what I'd carry in bear country
__________________
"Tricks and treachery are the practice of fools, that don't have brains enough to be honest"
Benjamin Franklin

"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends"
Martin Luther King, Jr.

"Orators are most vehement when their cause is weak" Marcus Tullius Cicero

Renfield is offline  
Old June 11, 2006, 01:35 PM   #49
Bullrock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,624
Quote:
argue with somebody else pally I know what I'd carry in bear country
Ditto!!! That's what I should have said!!!
Bullrock is offline  
Old June 11, 2006, 02:25 PM   #50
cje1980
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2004
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,385
Quote:
argue with somebody else pally I know what I'd carry in bear country
Was anything I wrote false? I was simply stating my opinion that a revolver is a better woods gun than a semi-auto. Its a fact, the 10mm is not anymore powerful than the 357Mag and that the 357Mag will definitely penetrate better. The 357Mag can launch projectiles of better construction for bear defense. You carry what you want and I'll carry what I want, which is a 357 in Black Bear country and a 44Mag in grizzly country. The chances of being in a bear attack are much less than threats that surround me on a daily basis, so I don't worry about it too mucn.
cje1980 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13841 seconds with 7 queries