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Old June 1, 2006, 12:40 AM   #1
Maser
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Corporal punishment & guns in a household

I am posting this at a few other shooting related sites so don't be surprised if you see this topic a lot.

Ok, friday is technically the last day of school for all the schools in my town, but it's also a day we don't have to show up because it's an "activity" day. Now at my little brother's school they are habing something called the water olympics which is nothing but just things to do with water and get wet and have fun. Anyways, my brother got in trouble for mouthing off to his teacher today and he got banned from the activity day and he got mad and cussed out his teacher and called her the worst thing you could ever call a woman. No, I don't mean the "B" word, but go to the next letter and that's the word he called her. Now my dad is a pretty easy going guy, but he does NOT stand for us "kids" disrespecting adults. I was home and had a friend over and we were watching a DVD in the family room with my brother when my dad came home and my mom showed my dad the referal that my brother had and all he had to do was look at my brother and he got up and assumed the position. Dropped his shorts and exposed his little spiderman boxers and 4 swats with the belt and it was all over. My brother pulls up his shorts and my dad makes him call his teacher and appologize to her.

Was nothing out of the ordinary, but my friend with me made a big deal about it. He was asking how I could live in such an abusive household. I told him that we are not abused here. There is a difference between corporal punishment and child abuse. Child abuse is nothing more than the sensless violence towards kids for no reason. Corporal punishment is nothing more than just a form of disipline. I would much rather get a spanking for being bad rather than be grounded and have things taken away from me. My parents enforce this type of punishment because it's how they were punished and it worked with them. Of all the spankings I have gotten in my lifetime there has never been one time where I felt I didn't deserve it.

The next thing my friend brought up was the fact that my house has guns in it. He asked if I had gotten spanked and if I would ever have got a gun and shot my parents because of it. I actually said no before he was even done asking the question. Even though my parents are strict and hard on me at times, I love them and they punish me because they love me and want me to turn out the right way. I then told him it would have to be a real extreme case such as my dad being drunk and on top of my little brother and punching him in the head and face as hard as he could for no reason. Then I wouldn't hesitate to put two slugs in his head, but something like that would never happen. My dad has NEVER been abusive when drunk. In fact he acts like a kid when he drinks too much and we have lots of fun together.

Anyways, after a few more minutes of arguing I manage to get my friend to stop talking about it. In a way I found his argument kind of offensive because he made my family out to be some barbaric family that beats the hell out of their kids for no reason. What do you guys think? Did I handle this the right way? If you have any more suggestions I could use when I see my friend again then please tell me.

Last edited by Maser; June 1, 2006 at 02:38 AM.
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Old June 1, 2006, 02:37 AM   #2
GlocksRfun
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U shoulda beat him with your belt.
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Old June 1, 2006, 03:00 AM   #3
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Sounds to me like you are a smart man who will do well in life and handled your response to your friend well.
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Old June 1, 2006, 04:17 AM   #4
Glock 31
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Sounds like your on your way to being able to deal with the hardships life will throw at you in a mature and self reliant manner. Your friend may not have the toughness that corporal punishment enstills in a person in order to deal with those same or similar hardships. Kind of funny how spankings as a kid can help you deal with many different kinds of pain. But my dad busted my butt plenty of times. And today I think I have a pretty good idea of what right and wrong is. Never could figure out how getting a "time out" was any kind of punishment. It's just time to think of how cool whatever it was that got you the time out was. Today, don't even think about "gasp", taking a kids playstation away. You do that and child services might as well take over.

As a child, I found that pain was the most effective wake-up call you could get. Playing hopscotch over those pointed wooden posts that mark underground gas lines, NOT a good idea. Never did it again. Duct tape several bamboo pieces together forming a crude, but effective lance. Then storming the fort's gate, (my house's front door) almost spearing my mom when she opened it. After the belt whipping I figured I didn't like bamboo anymore. Going real fast on my bike and hitting the front brakes instead of the back brakes, now I know which brakes are the right ones to use. Wanted to help my dad out, so I decided to wash the land rover. After my dad broke the ping pong paddle on my @$$, (I kid you not) I decided washing a car with rocks is not a good idea. (In hindsight I guess I wasn't the smartest kid my age.)

And probably the most important lesson you can learn. When you are five years old, and you are at a neighbor kid's house. And he goes and rides his bike outside, leaving you alone in the house at midnight. And you decide to watch Steven King's "IT". You learn that clowns, ALL clowns are evil.
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Old June 1, 2006, 04:51 AM   #5
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Dr Spock, the child psychiatrist, wrote a book which sadly became the bible for raising kids. He and other of his ilk ignored thousands of years of knowledge about raising kids . He later [about 25 years !!] admitted that there were things in the book that were wrong . One of these was the absurd idea that disipline is the opposite of love .Since parents wanted to love their children they didn't disipline their kids . This crazy idea has certainly been detrimental to our society but it still lingers on. I remember at the time one doctor in response to the book said 'when the baby cries ,put down the book and pick up the baby ' !! If you look up his story you'll see what success he had raising his own kid with those ideas !!!
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Old June 1, 2006, 05:36 AM   #6
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4 swats with a belt is not abusive. 40 swats probably is ... 4 is not.

A few unstable kids might make the jump to retaliation with a gun, most would not. Unfortunately, those few get well publicized (there was a recent case of this in Pennsylvania, where a kid shot his girlfriend's parents because they wouldn't allow their daughter to see him anymore).
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Old June 1, 2006, 06:01 AM   #7
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And here we have the rearing of a conservative and a liberal..........

You cannot rationalize away bad behavior. You cannot dissolve bad behavior through therapy. Human beings only learn by example after they feel the sting of making the wrong choice. Without the sting, the wrong choice is never felt. That belt just supplies the sting.
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Old June 1, 2006, 06:13 AM   #8
Hal
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Quote:
4 swats with a belt is not abusive. 40 swats probably is ... 4 is not.
Depends.
Personally,, I think any swats with anything other than an open hand is a bit over the top.
And I'm an ultra conservative to the point of being a staunch retro or reactionary...

IMHO pop needs to cool it with the belt and/or anything else other than an open hand or he may end up being the subject of an investigation by childrens services.

You get the right (or wrong as the case may be) "dogooder" or "bleeding heart" social worker, and dad may find himself slapped with a domestic charge.

FWIW - from what I can read into things abuse doesn't seem to be the case here, Dad doled out the punishment when he got home from work - a lot like things were when I was growing up. It sounds a lot like he didn't go ballistic and start beating on the kid - just good old spank in the seat family justice.
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Old June 1, 2006, 06:17 AM   #9
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My mom and dad swatted my behind plenty of times as a kid and I'm a better man for it. Grounding is ok in some circumstances, but to me it's kind of pointless the whole now go and think about what you did type punishment. I prefer the 'you do this and this is what happens" method. You handled it well and I'm assuming you're a high school student or around there? You sound intelligent and well rounded from your post and I agree with the other posters whole heartedly. A piece of advice though, I have several friends that are liberal and conservative alike. We often engage in pleasant arguments about guns,religion,politics,child raising,the war,etc. None of us has ever bashed the other for our beliefs or let that ruin the friendship. If your friend cannot be intelligent about things then you may wanna find another friend or at least stay away from any conversation heavier than which movie was really better x-men or x-men2. X-men 3 was just terrible and shouldn't be considered part of the series
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Old June 1, 2006, 06:47 AM   #10
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My personal belief is that if you teach a kid to do what you say or you will beat then up you are giving a bad example

The dropping of the shorts and submitting to that humiliation in mixed company is also troubling

I guess I'm in the violence begets violence crowd
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Old June 1, 2006, 06:54 AM   #11
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While spanking might be appropriate at times, the use of a foreign object isn't, in my opinion. The ACT of being spanked is where the impression is made - not in carrying bruises or welts because a primative whip was used.

Children have a remarkable way of living with adversity. Too much physical punishment is the kind of thing they can weather without necessarily being screwed up for life, but that doesn't mean it was necessary, appropriate or effective.


Despite being very good kids, my wife and her sister received a wood paddle with fair frequency from their step father (the paddle disappeared when his own daughters came along). While she has no "battered child" emotional problems, I can tell you she is none too impressed with either parent, and will never have a very close relationship with them.

Last edited by Handy; June 1, 2006 at 07:35 AM.
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Old June 1, 2006, 07:01 AM   #12
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Spare the rod, spoil the child!!!

As for violence begets violence: I got the belt multiple times in my adolescence when I deserved it. Only been in one fight my whole (23yrs) life. I don't resort to violence when problems/confrontations arise.

Time outs do not work IMHO.
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Old June 1, 2006, 07:33 AM   #13
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Quote:
Despite being very good kids, my wife and her sister received a wood paddle with fair frequency from their father in law (the paddle disappeared when his own daughters came along).
Handy, you let your dad spank your wife with a paddle?

I make my dad spank my wife with nothing more than an open hand!
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Old June 1, 2006, 07:35 AM   #14
Handy
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Nope, typo. Should have been "step father". I'll fix it.
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Old June 1, 2006, 01:47 PM   #15
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I was "spanked" when I was young. I wasn't spanked literally, but I was slapped, slapped, and slapped some more. And yes, I was a victim of the belt, too! AND FLIP-FLOPS!

I believe I'm a good person today and those around me think so too, BUT....I HIGHLY doubt the whoopings turned me into a good person. Being a good person was MY choice, not the belts choice. All the discipline did was make me tougher and more accepting of violence. My parents stopped disciplining me more than 5 years ago(I'm 18 right now) because I started hitting them back. They knew I started to become immune to violence. Since I can now hit them back and defend myself, I could've have done whatever the hell I wanted to. I could've sold drugs, killed, whatever, but I didn't because I felt that was the wrong thing to do. Again, it was MY choice to take the correct path through life and not the belts choice.

You CAN discipline a child without the use of violence. Taking away thier most treasured belongings, locking them up in thier rooms for a week and giving them just food and water with no forms of entertainment(prison method), etc. Also, trying breaking the childs belongings right in front of the him/her and see if they ever do anything bad again.

I have no kids, so take the above for what it's worth.
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Old June 1, 2006, 02:00 PM   #16
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Striking a child past toddler stage (one small attention getting swat on diapers in dangerous situations only) is abuse at worst and poor parenting at best.

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Old June 1, 2006, 02:06 PM   #17
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Maser that was a very mature and well considered response. You educated your friend and showed both compassion and insight. Welcome to TFL.
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Old June 1, 2006, 02:10 PM   #18
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Weeeeeeellllll......Ok.

I don't think that breaking the toys that I bought for my kids in front of them is the worst form of punishment, but it ranks up there.

To answer the original poster's question:

I am the kid who was "abused" , under the guise of discipline. I recall several occasions where I was spanked with a belt, 40 + times, until I lost bladder control.

I was made to urinate prior to punishment after that.

I always had access to the gun cabinet, and I never thought of violence toward my folks.

I just thought that was how all kids "got it" when they were bad. It all ended when, at about age 16, my old man slapped me. I got off the floor, looked him in the eye..."bowed up" I suppose...ready for him to "try again".

Had he not had the grace to walk off, dinner would have been ugly for a while. Win, lose, or draw...I was ready to fight him.

Since those days, dad has appologised for all that business. I never hated him for it, and he and I are nearly best friends these days.

I do not spank my kids with anything other than my hand. so far
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Old June 1, 2006, 02:24 PM   #19
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Quote:
4 swats with a belt is not abusive. 40 swats probably is ... 4 is not.
Quote:
Striking a child past toddler stage (one small attention getting swat on diapers in dangerous situations only) is abuse at worst and poor parenting at best.
I find both statements to be untrue. First, corporal punishment can only be labeled 'abuse', if it is administered to while in a state of anger/rage/hatred, and/or intended to cause actual physical harm. One strike out of anger is abuse. One hit meant to cause harm is abuse.

But back up a minute here... Discipline of a child is a personal thing. What works for some may not, or will not, work for others. In the scenario of the first post, the spanking should have been done away from the view of any non-family members.

I was raised with corporal punishment, and not once did I ever think it was wrong for me to be punished by the belt. Having to do extra chores, or being grounded, or having privileges taken from me, didn't ever drive the point home for me. Most often, I got my butt whipped for trying to behave like a spoiled rotten pukestain. Never was the discipline done out of anger. Mom would hold off if she was upset until she cooled off. I was probably about 13 or 14 when I figured out how to avoid getting the belt (or during summers, the switch of a chokecherry tree - actually that came about because my siblings and I had the brilliant idea that if we hid all the belts, there'd be no whippings - turns out we could never find a way to get one step ahead of our dear mother).

Are there better ways to reach children? Perhaps. Some parents are blessed with well behaved children.

edit - back to the actual topic though.... We didn't have guns in my home growing up. But I never had any ill thoughts of revenge either. Oddly enough, my older brother has taken a different viewpoint about this. I think he was resentful about getting whipped. I don't know if it can be attributed to the use of corporal punishment, but my brother was a bully to me, and I'd get a fair share of beatdowns from him. I'm fairly certain it was just that he didn't like me, since he won't raise a finger to his own kids, and they are spoiled rotten and ungrateful kids.
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Old June 1, 2006, 02:29 PM   #20
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I don't think anger/rage/hatred has anything to do with it. A parent can smack their child while they are peeved, and it be the right thing to do. And another parent can cooly, "lovingly" burn their child with a cigarette because they think they're doing the right thing.

The attitude is hardly as important as the punishment itself.
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Old June 1, 2006, 02:32 PM   #21
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Most often, I got my butt whipped for trying to behave like a spoiled rotten pukestain
Maybe your right Spiff.....perhaps I should have gotten the switch a bit...

WildafteralllookatmybehaviorandlookatyoursAlaska
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Old June 1, 2006, 02:36 PM   #22
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Terrified!!!

Quote:
I don't think anger/rage/hatred has anything to do with it. A parent can smack their child while they are peeved, and it be the right thing to do. And another parent can cooly, "lovingly" burn their child with a cigarette because they think they're doing the right thing.

The attitude is hardly as important as the punishment itself.
I actually agree with Handy on this.

ITEOWAWKI
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Old June 1, 2006, 02:45 PM   #23
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Consider the reasons provided for kids who do get a gun and try to dish out 'retribution' for how they have been treated, either by their parents, or classmates. Its usually the kids who are pushed around, bullied, mocked, made fun of, the stuff we say is 'normal' and the kids should 'get over it', right?

But to me, this reflects how everyone in our society has a complete lack of respect for one another. Children grow up watching their parents being jerks and disrespectful, yet they expect their kids to respect them. Kids, learning much from example, wind up not having any respect for anyone, peer or authority figure.

How many times have you encountered some overprivileged teenager who insists/demands respect, and thought to yourself "A backhand across that 'tards face ought to set him straight"? A generation or two ago, a kid could earn respect from his peers by standing up to the bully, maybe he wouldnt win, but he didn't get walked over either. That same kid from a generation or two ago, would most likely have had respect for any adult they came across, calling them 'Sir', or 'Ma'am', 'Mr' or 'Mrs'.

Nowadays, you can't force a kid to respect an adult. And when todays kid tries to earn respect from peers, it is with a gun, not with fists. If a parent tries to use corporal punishment, there is the risk that the kid will retaliate.
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Old June 1, 2006, 03:00 PM   #24
Handy
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Some children are broken, and were born that way. No amount of proper or abusive parenting was going to keep a cork in that bottle. Not every case is preventable.

Other children go off the deep end after a life of taking abuse with no outlet or compassion. Someone could have helped, but didn't. And the kid could have chosen differently, but chose to flush his and every other life down the toilet.

Neither one has a simple fix, because both are centered on either no sense of or an abandonment of morality. Most people and children can live an entire lifetime of abuse and neglect without ever snapping. It is a choice.
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Old June 1, 2006, 03:21 PM   #25
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...spare the rod, spoil the child.

nuff said.
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