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Old May 20, 2006, 06:17 PM   #1
smince
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"Police 1911" article in AH

Ayoob has an interesting article about the 1911 in LE use in the latest edition of American Handgunner. Seems it IS favorable to use such a "dangerous" gun for LE. And in C1 no less.
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Old May 20, 2006, 07:46 PM   #2
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Favorable to whom?

I know some cops who would absolutely love to be allowed to carry cocked and locked 1911s as duty weapons, but their departments solidly forbid it.

Is law enforcement carry of the 1911 on the rise? The guys I know certainly aren't affiliated with big departments that would be on the trend setter list.
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Old May 20, 2006, 10:18 PM   #3
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*

HS: do you know if there are restrictions on carrying other types with a chambered round?
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Old May 20, 2006, 11:14 PM   #4
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I don't think the 1911 is on the rise in law enforcement. Perhaps with some high profile tactical units ,but not with the line officers or CID. My agency ,as well as all the ones in my area ,prohibit SA handguns. Only traditional SA/DA , DAO are permitted. Regards 18DAI.
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Old May 21, 2006, 01:07 AM   #5
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Our dept does allow the carry of 1911's. Most do not chose to do so. During my academy I witnessed all three of my classmates 1911's fail at one point or another during "range week." All three were Kimbers.
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Old May 21, 2006, 02:40 AM   #6
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I've actually seen articles in multiple mags lately about 1911 use for general duty. Just picked up the latest copy of Combat Handguns and Ayoob mentioned 1911's as an option for women and men with small hands who have trouble qualifying with other designs. I don't think any state or large local agencies will be issuing the 1911 exclusively any time soon, but it does seem to be a popular topic in the mags.
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Old May 21, 2006, 11:04 AM   #7
Jack Malloy
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Personally I think its silly they let guys walk around all the time with cocked and unlocked guns (Glocks, Springfield XDs and now the new S&W MP) but they have a hissy fit over a 1911?
If I carry a gun with a round in the chamber and the hammer or firing pin either one is cocked, I want a THUMB safety, period.
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Old May 21, 2006, 04:51 PM   #8
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Quote:
Personally I think its silly they let guys walk around all the time with cocked and unlocked guns (Glocks, Springfield XDs and now the new S&W MP) but they have a hissy fit over a 1911?
If I carry a gun with a round in the chamber and the hammer or firing pin either one is cocked, I want a THUMB safety, period.
Glocks (not sure about the XD or S&W... I don't keep up with them) are "locked" in the holster via firing pin safety. Also, the Glock is not "cocked" in the holster. The striker/spring is under partial tension (not enough to fire a round if it dropped from carry position even *if* the pin safety failed) whereas the 1911 is hanging on the sear notch at full tension which would ahve enough force to light off a round if it fell. HUGE difference between the two pistols in design and function. Your analogy doesn't hold water. Glocks are classified as DAO pistols even by the ATF.

As for a thumb safety, that's a matter of preference. Won't knock you for wanting one. Personally I don't want one. I'm perfectly ok with a striker/firing pin lock safety. To each his own.
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Old May 21, 2006, 05:06 PM   #9
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Quote:
Glocks are classified as DAO pistols even by the ATF.
And we all know how KNOWLEDGEABLE A.T.F. is about classifying weapons, don't we?
Quote:
whereas the 1911 is hanging on the sear notch at full tension which would ahve enough force to light off a round if it fell.
Firing pin block

I read somewhere recently that Boston is going to widespread issue of SIG GSR 1911's for its PD. True or false, I don't know.
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Old May 21, 2006, 05:09 PM   #10
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The point was that he was comparing a striker under partial tension to a hammer hanging on a sear. I'm familiar with the firing pin block.

And since it takes a trigger stroke to fully cock and fire each and every round with the Glock, why would it NOT be considered double action? I agree that the ATF isn't exactly the depository of gun knowledge... just illustrating that even they recognize the fact that the Glock isn't SA...

I think you got my points and just wanted to post something.
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Old May 21, 2006, 05:31 PM   #11
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During the past few years, Mr. Ayoob has changed in some of his views. Certainly within his right not to be rigid in his positions but I wonder about his creditability these days. I lost interest in his opinions/views ever since the damning indictment against Brad Steiner & the point shooting advocates. Why should that bother me? Because it showed inflexibility in his thinking contrare to what he always preached. And of course, his increased employment reviewing/writing for the gun rags in the usual slanted style that the gun mfgr insists upon..
He used to write repeatedly that the rank & file of the LE community should not carry in Cond.1, only those who were highly qualified, like himself, of course! BTW, it really is a moot point since the vast majority of LE depts. are going with DAO...
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Old May 21, 2006, 07:49 PM   #12
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Ayoob...

Whenever I read any of the experts, I listen to what they have to say and decide for myself whether to incorporate any of their techniques or philosophies into my self defense regimen. That goes for firearm experts to unarmed combat or defensive driving. I do appreciate the info even if I don't agree with it. Just my 2 cents.
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Old May 21, 2006, 09:30 PM   #13
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Never you mind what Ayoob said. Everybody knows Glock Perfection is the choice of professionals. The question is, are YOU professional enough to handle a Glock .40?
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Old May 21, 2006, 10:29 PM   #14
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Yeah, ok... I'd trade three Glock 22 pistols (I'm forced to carry the Glock...definitely not my choice... ) for having the "choice" of carrying a Sig P226R DAK for duty use...
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Old May 22, 2006, 09:13 AM   #15
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Rainbow,

There is no difference in drop safety between a Glock and a 1911 with a firing pin block. It doesn't matter if the sear bounces off the hammer because the firing pin block won't allow the hammer to ignite the primer.

Smince wasn't being argumentative - your point was not valid for a great number of modern 1911 varients.
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Old May 22, 2006, 10:02 AM   #16
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The county mounties in my neck of the woods carry the para lda's.
They have been issued to them,the hi-cap for larger hands, & the single stacks for the smaller ones.They seem to love them except for the long trigger reset compared to the glocks.
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Old May 22, 2006, 10:40 AM   #17
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Quote:
HS: do you know if there are restrictions on carrying other types with a chambered round?
I think the issue locally is no single action pistols, like 18DAI mentioned elsewhere in the country. Not 100% on that, I'll see if there's more to the story than that next time I'm talking to the local constabulary.
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Old May 22, 2006, 12:25 PM   #18
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My local police department issues the Glock 22 to its officers. However a couple of years back, I was asking a wheel (motorcycle) cop how he liked the new Harley-Davidson's the the department bought. I looked down and noticed that he was carrying a cocked and locked Colt 1911. I guess them bikers think they're special or somethin'.
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Old May 22, 2006, 05:37 PM   #19
maximuss
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A local SO restricts to carry either Glocks or 1911s.
No HK, Springer, no Sig or anythingelse.

I think they are strange.
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Old May 22, 2006, 06:29 PM   #20
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What goes into a department's choice of duty weapon or allowed duty weapon out of the pretty vast spectrum out there is probibly only 50-60% about the actual quality / ease of use of the weapon and the rest is about training, danger real or percived that either the troops face or what is considered dangerous to do by someone who does not him or herself wear the uniform, whish that it made more sense but it does not and this goes well beyong guns --- anything the government buys it this way unless it is strictly in the hands of the end user which is very rare.
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Old May 22, 2006, 07:12 PM   #21
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Quote:
I've actually seen articles in multiple mags lately about 1911 use for general duty. Just picked up the latest copy of Combat Handguns and Ayoob mentioned 1911's as an option for women and men with small hands who have trouble qualifying with other designs.
I guess he has really changed his views. In "The Gravest Extreme." page 98 he considers the 1911 as an "experts only" weapon. In discussing women specifically, he notes that .45s and magnums are too powerful for small hands to control, page 40(as if hand size determined strength). What a paradox of time.
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Old May 24, 2006, 07:03 AM   #22
Jack Malloy
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Hmm...
Lets see.
The Glock has a firing pin lock and a little lever on the trigger.
My 1911 has a firing pin lock, a grip safety AND a thumb safety.
I still say its mechanically safer.
If you ever look at an x-ray view drawing of the 1911 what you see is that the thumb safety really locks the sear. It cant fire until the safey is snapped off.
Id take that over any cocked and unlocked pistol any day.
I am guessing you never saw a Glock go full auto. So much for the firing pin lock..... Some early model 17s had a tendancy of firing full auto when you tripped the slide back to reload the gun when they came out. The little lever on the trigger never helped much. One policeman I knew was not perturbed about this at all. He wanted a Beretta 93-r machine pistol and he figured he might be able to carry his defective glock with a magazine in the well and the slide locked back and to fire it by tripping the slide lock.
I crap thee not!

Safe action is about like a 1911 with the hammer on half cock and the thumb safety and grip safety deactivated.
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Old May 24, 2006, 08:18 AM   #23
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Quote:
Glocks are classified as DAO pistols even by the ATF.
A Glock is Double Action Only in the same vein as Oral Sex is not Sex.

Double Action Only is easily shown by pullin gthe trigger of my uncocked S&W model 60. Also try see the pull on the Berretta 92 in DA mode. THAT is double action.

DA means the trigger both cocks the hammer and drops it. That is NOT the case. The longer and heavier pull of a true double action is not what you get with a Glock. With a Glock you have a lighter and shorter pull than a Double Action.

ATF was doing too much A when they called it a Double Action Only. Personally I think the old saying of going off "half cocked" is perfectly applied to Glocks. I would trust a new shooter with a 1911 MORE than with a Glock because of the POSITIVE MANUAL SAFETY that is not present on the Glock.
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Old May 24, 2006, 04:14 PM   #24
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Ok, I give up...
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Old July 9, 2006, 05:30 PM   #25
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Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire, like you all were taught and this whole dao/sa bussiness is over! Glock style pistols have proven safe and so have 1911's or most single actions if they both are used safely
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