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Old January 13, 2000, 06:03 PM   #1
bone
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Join Date: January 1, 2000
Posts: 10
I copied and pasted from my last post on 'redding dies' in hope of a response. thanks for any advice. bone


Topic: redding dies
bone
Member
posted January 09, 2000 08:35 AM

I have been using rcbs regular dies for reloading ruger mkII varmint model in
22-250. Can I expect much accuracy gain with the expensive redding competition
dies, with all other parameters remaining the same? I love accuracy and would
spend the money if your experience tells me I could get a noticeable gain. Thanks
for any advice. bone
alan
Senior Member
posted January 09, 2000 01:00 PM

Redding dies supposedly have a very good reputation, though I have not used
them. Have used RCBS dies for years, without problems, so far as I could ever
tell.

As for "competition dies", I believe everyone has gotten on that bandwagon, or
claims to have done so.

As to"accuracy", what do you mean by the term? How well can you hold? How
good is your particular rifle? How good is the ammunition that you are loading, in
YOUR rifle. Mechanical gadets are, or can be a lot of fun, helpful, or a waste of
money. Don't forget the basics.

When I shot National Match Course competition, using a bolt rifle in 308 and
30-06, different cartridges I know, I loaded, using standard RCBS dies,
ammunition that would hold the 10 ring, at 600 yards, iron sights, WHEN I DID
MY PART. Using a Bonanza "floating sleeve" seating die, which I later obtained,
may have helped some, can't be sure. If "fancier" equipment makes you feel
better, more confident, who knows, but what it MIGHT help some.
Dave Finfrock
Senior Member
posted January 09, 2000 02:14 PM

I had (and still have, actually) Redding Competition dies when I reloaded for .264
Winchester magnum. They are simply outstanding dies. More than I can say for
the .264. Despite the cartridges EXTREME temperamentality, I was usually able
to wring good accuracy out of it. If you can get a .264 to shoot, you're doing
something right, and the dies were right. I still have the dies, the .264 is long
gone. It would almost be worth the headaches to get another just the use the dies
again...
bone
Member
posted January 09, 2000 03:51 PM

Alan and Dave, thanks for the input. Alan, I am certainly no professional, just
shoot in my pasture at targets and knock out crows occasionally (there are some
across the road hollering now!) The best I am able to get @100yds is 10 bullets
all touching but with some vertical stringing. I thought that was good for a novice
country boy like myself, but would like to improve. I shoot Varget with Sierra
52BTHP Match and used the stoney point tools for seating depth. I trimmed the
cases to recommended length and measure every powder load on the scale and
try to be as repeatable as possible. Like a say, just a novice, but trying to
improve. The Ruger seems to be capable, I'm not sure about me. Gotta go take a
shot at that crow! bone.
Mal H
Senior Member
posted January 09, 2000 04:23 PM

bone, it certainly sounds like you're doing your part. The stringing is probably from
the barrel heating up. If you can do it, wait about 10 min. between each shot and
see if that helps. But if you're as impatient as I am, that's a hard thing to do.

If you're getting groups where all the holes touch, the redding won't help you very
much. But they are a work of art, I just wish I could afford a few, but I always end
up with Lee or RCBS and am never dissatisfied with those brands.
alan
Senior Member
posted January 09, 2000 11:25 PM

Bone:

From what you say, it sounds like you have, at least, a good degree of accuracy,
10 shots all touching impresses me. As to the vertical stringing you mentioned,
that could be a bedding problem, or a symptom of barrel heating, as Mal H
offered.

Is your Ruger a light or heavy barreled rifle. Has it been glass bedded, and if so,
how (pillar bedded??), and was it done right. Check for barrel to stock contact, in
the barrel channel.

Sometimes a "free floated" barrel (bedded chamber length) with no stock contact
forward of that point will shoot more accurately.

Vertical stringing could be due to variations in powder charge too, though with
weighed charges you mentioned, that shouldn't be the problem.

Unfortunately, I'm not really familiar with your caliber, I always shot 30 caliber.
Hope the above helps.
flatlander
Senior Member
posted January 10, 2000 12:54 AM

Bone: I bought a Redding Competition Seater die a couple of years ago for
loading match ammo for my AR15's. At the same time, I borrowed a friend's
NECO case gauge, which I used to check loaded round runout(or bullet wobble, if
you want to call it that). My old RCBS seater was giving me anywhere from .004"
to .012" of runout. Just switching to the Redding seater reduced that to an
average of under .002". Whether that factor alone makes the Redding dies worth
what they cost is up to you. I did find out that the seating stem in the die has a
tendacy to pick up moly & wax off my moly'd bullets, which finds its way up into
the hole the stem floats in. This will build up after 100 or so rounds are loaded and
cause the runout to increase. It's a simple matter to unscrew the top of the die,
remove the stem & chamber for cleaning, relube, and reassemble. The seating
depth is not affected by this cleaning. Another thing - for our rapid fire 200&300yd
ammo, we usually load 68/69 & 75/77gr. bullets, seated to feed through
magazines. You can't do this with stick powders without compressing the charge,
and my Redding seater didn't tolerate this. Its stem expanded at the bottom of the
skirt where it's thinnest, and galled, then seized in the sliding chamber. Redding
repaired it at no charge, but advised me the die wasn't suitable for seating on
comressed charges. I really like the micrometer adjustment for seating depth,
though. You might want to look at Bonanza's Ultra BR seater; it has the mic top
also, and costs slightly less than the Redding.
Art Eatman
Senior Member
posted January 10, 2000 11:54 PM

If you can get ten shots all touching, you're in a lot better shape than many folks.

As a generalization, horizontal strings usually are due to a bit of canting of the
rifle. Vertical strings are usually due to the forearm-bedding not being quite right,
with increasing pressure on the barrel from the stock due to the difference in
expansion rates as the barrel heats up.

But nuthin' is "always".

If your first three or first five shots are pretty much in the same hole, think twice
before messing with your package. And make any changes very carefully...

As far as gadgets and gear, do you have one of those roller-deals for cartridges,
so you can check run-out on the bullet? To see if it's perfectly aligned with the
bore? If your bullets are now seated exactly in line with the bore, changing dies
won't help.

FWIW, Art

[This message has been edited by Art Eatman (edited January 10, 2000).]
bone
Member
posted January 11, 2000 07:40 PM

I don't know how to check runout on a bullet. I check it on machines at work with a dial indicator and a mag base. I check it on shafts with a couple of Vee blocks on a granite plate with an indicator on a height stand. I make measurements for a living (metrologist) and can probably devise a method, but what is the normally accepted procedure in reloading? Hate to sound ignorant (but I am, as I haven't been reloading long), I can shim in the blocks and use a dial, but this does not seem productive. What am I overlooking here? bone
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Old January 13, 2000, 11:34 PM   #2
Art Eatman
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Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,426
A run-out tester is one of those items I have read about but never actually seen live in captivity.

I imagine the Benchrest shooters are the most likely to use them, given the ultra-precision in all their stuff. You might browse those sites. I believe (been to lazy to look) that there are links, here.

Best luck, Art
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Old January 14, 2000, 09:12 AM   #3
JoeHatley
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Join Date: July 1, 1999
Location: Iowa
Posts: 2,135
I think www.sinclairintl.com sells one.

Good Luck...

Joe


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Old January 14, 2000, 11:52 PM   #4
Tom D
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Join Date: July 16, 1999
Posts: 28
Bone,

I have the Redding competition dies for 223. As Art related in one of his responses, I found that the RCBS dies gave bullet runout anywhere from .002" to .015". The Redding bushing type neck sizing die and the competition seating die gives a very consistant .000" to .004". Keep in mind, the quality of your brass will have a great effect on bullet runout also. One thing I really like about the bushing type dies is the ability to change the ammount of neck tension by using different size bushings. It also allows you to adjust the ammount of the neck you are sizing, (how far down the neck you allow the bushing to go). Very percise and well built dies. I use Redding standard dies for just about everything.

Sinclair does sell loaded cartridge concentricity testers. I bought one a couple of years back and it is kind of a cool thing to play with, but I don't use it a whole lot anymore. When I shoot in big matches or 1000 yard matches, I will check my match ammo and use the ones with .000" to .002". I think if bullet runout is somewhere around .005" or less you won't see any difference in a factory rifle (or a semi-auto like my AR match rifle). Benchresters with custom rigs go for -0- and most likely need it to get the performance they are after.

Remember one thing. It is all for fun and grins. Messing with custom loading tools and techniques is a lot of fun and you learn things that will make your rifle shoot better. I know guys that neck turn, sort brass, ream primer pockets, check runout and all kinds of other stuff just because they enjoy it. It extends the amount of time they spend working with their gun. Kind of like fly tying. It's not fishing, but it is kind of the next best thing for some guys. I think attention to the neck area of the case pays the biggest dividends in accuracy. It is impossible to say if loading techniques will give you better accuracy in your rifle. It sounds pretty good for a factory rifle. But, you never know until you try. I say, if you are interested, go for it and have fun. But be warned, you may end up truing necks and weighing brass and all kinds of other stuff if you get started.
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Old January 16, 2000, 03:44 AM   #5
Art Eatman
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Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,426
I went to that Sinclair site. Neat stuff! I requested a catalog...

Gale's comments about case-neck trimming/turning, plus their comments, might be useful, bone. And the prices are reasonable, if you're serious about getting the best accuracy out of your rifle...

, Art
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