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Old May 6, 2006, 09:28 PM   #1
sgtgrunt
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velocity of 22-250 compared to 223

i went to the local gun shop b/c im looking for a varmit rifle. they had two on hand that were packages from savage, both had heavy barrels and scopes with the accu trigger with over sized stocks. the only differance was, one was 223 and the other was 22-250. which one is better for long range varmit hunting. let me specify long range and the preditors 200-400yrds groundhogs pairie dogs, foxes and coyots
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Old May 6, 2006, 09:49 PM   #2
Limeyfellow
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THe 22-250 is a better round due to its heavier bullet its going to react better at longer distances. The .223 is a little more accurate, but not as flexible and would be better at shorter distances than 22-250.

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Old May 6, 2006, 09:50 PM   #3
gunzblazin
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22-250

I would definately pick 22-250 over 223. 22-250 leaves the muzzle at about 300 to 600 fps faster than 223. Check out www.gunsandammomag.com at their ballistic charts and see for yourself. It also shoots quite flat. If you are thinking about going as big as a coyote you may want to go with a bigger caliber than either of these choices though. IMHO for small varmints you cant get much better than 22-250.
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Old May 6, 2006, 10:56 PM   #4
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The .22-250 certainly has the edge over the .223. For 400yd shots, you might even want to consider a .220 Swift, but they do have a reputation for eating up barrels.
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Old May 6, 2006, 11:17 PM   #5
G56
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Quote:
THe 22-250 is a better round due to its heavier bullet its going to react better at longer distances. The .223 is a little bit faster, and a little bit more accurate, but not as flexible and would be better at shorter distances than 22-250.
The 22-250 is usually used with lighter bullets than the 223, the most favored bullets in 22-250 are usually 40 to 45 grains, and the twist rate in most rifles is too slow for heavy bullets, while the 223 the most common bullet is 55 grains, but heavier bullets are relatively common going up into 68/69 and even some heavier bullets being used. My AR in 223 is slightly more accurate than my Remington in 22-250, but that can vary rifle to rifle.

Some of my personal chrono numbers

22-250 Rem 700 bolt action 24" bbl 1-12 twist
35 gr AA2230C
40gr Win HP
Avg 3448
High 3461
Low 3433
ES 28.7
SD 14.5
AD 10.3

24.5gr AA2230C AR15 24" bbl 1-8 twist
Hornady 55 gr Spire Pt
Avg 3102
High 3147
Low 3047
ES 100
SD 31.6
AD 23.4
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Old May 7, 2006, 10:34 AM   #6
Art Eatman
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That 22-250 load is certainly a barrel-saver. It's easy enough to drive a 52-grain bullet to 3,700 or 3,800, but the latter is hard on the leade.

The Swift's bad rep came from the old days of single-based nitrocellulose powders like HiVel #2 and #3. Higher burn temperature. With double-based IMR, much much less of a problem. While the original factory load was a 40-grain bullet at 4,140, dropping back to 4,000 and using IMR gives good barrel life.

FWIW, the old .22 Savage HiPower, brought out in 1899, could be loaded with 2400 to some 3,900 ft/sec with a 40-grain bullet. (Phil Sharpe's "Complete Guide to Handloading") Newer is not necessarily better.

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Old May 7, 2006, 11:03 AM   #7
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.22-250 has more in the top end.

My Remington has a 1-14 twist. The heaviest bullet it will stabilize is the 70 grain Speer flat base round nose. At over 3,000 fps, the 70 grain bullet will settle a coyote.

The advantage of the .223 is economy. However, it has less range, all things being equal.

Accuracy is dependent on individual rifles and reloading ability. I've shot groups in the .3++ range with my .22-250. No doubt it will do better with more work.
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Old May 7, 2006, 11:55 AM   #8
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In a bolt gun id take the 22-250. Flatter shooting and while the shells are more expensive sompare to .223, youll miss alot less at long range.

SW
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Old May 7, 2006, 01:35 PM   #9
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The 22-250 shoots heavier bullets than the 223 and at higher velocitys, accuracy of a good 22-250 ia every bit as good as the 223 and with heavier bullets beats it hands down at longer ranges. My rem VSSF 700 will go .25" when im having a good day with 55gr bullets and 34.5gr Hodgden Varget gives 3450 fps, it goes even faster on 36.5 grs but Im going for barrel life not a few fps. I have a older Sako varminter with a 1-12 barrel, will stabilise 65 and 70 gr bullets and is also a tack driver, both definitely buck the wind better than the 223 on 50gr bullets. If you want long range the 223 is not your best pick.
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Old May 7, 2006, 01:41 PM   #10
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THe 22-250 is a better round due to its heavier bullet its going to react better at longer distances. The .223 is a little more accurate, but not as flexible and would be better at shorter distances than 22-250.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why does the 22-250 have a heavier bullet than the 223,when both have the same calibre?Sorry to disappoint you,but you can shoot the same bullets in a 22-250 as you can in a 223,220Swift 0r .222 etc,as long as you got the twist rate to stabilize them.Of course,the 22-250 is a better choice for long range varminting or target-shooting,but if you want to shoot lots and stay within 400-500 yds,you will be well served with the .223.


That 22-250 load is certainly a barrel-saver. It's easy enough to drive a 52-grain bullet to 3,700 or 3,800, but the latter is hard on the leade.

No caliber can be considered a barrel saver,when it drives a bullet at 3700 fps.
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Old May 7, 2006, 01:55 PM   #11
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My go-to varmint gun for 30 years has been a 22-250. It started out as a benchrest round, it was the original Swift, it is the Varminter round!

While the 223 is a suitable varmint cartridge for varmints up to and including coyotes, the 22-250 shoots flatter, faster, and is every bit as accurate. It is like a lightning strike on coyotes out to 450 yards. The guys I used to hunt with used to tell me they could always tell when I hit a ground squirrel out at 350 yards because it just DISAPPEARED! No flopping, no chunks, just hair in the air and nothing else. It is instant death on chucks, it will skin and clean them in one fell swoop.

On coyotes, it drops them like the finger of death himself out to 450 yards. No running, no flopping. Just down. It will really mess up a pelt if you take body shots, but I primarily take head shots, so you know it's plenty accurate.

I am on my 3rd 22-250 barrel. Just had the last one replaced after 4000 rounds. Yes, they can be hard on barrels, but then most people will never fire 4000 rounds through any rifle. My favorite 55 grain load chronos at 3818 fps out of a 28" barrel. I went to a 28" barrel because my friend had a Swift that would throw a 55 gr bullet at 3750 fps. Just had to have the last word, I guess.

I also have a 223 that I dearly love, but if the ranges are over 300 yards, I pick the 22-250.
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Old May 7, 2006, 11:53 PM   #12
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More accurate?

I don't know where someone would get the idea that a .223 is more accurate than a .22-250. It would be easy (and understandable) to say that it is more accurate than a musket, but between one centerfire cartridge and another there are so many variables as to make such a blanket statement meaningless. A particular .223 MAY be more accurate than a particular .22-250, and vice versa.

As a long time user of both rounds, I would choose the .22-250 for varmint shooting. Flatter shooting, so hits at long range are easier, and at shorter range it loses nothing.

The only "advantages" to the .223 are slightly cheaper ammo (especially FMJ), slightly reduced report, and you can get it in an autoloading rifle (if that is important). In a bolt action, except for factory ammo cost, the .22-250 has it all over the .223. I wouldn't be concerned with barrel life as a major factor. If you shoot that much, I doubt the slight edge in barrel life a .223 is likely to have over the bigger cartridge is going to be economically significant.
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Old May 8, 2006, 10:52 AM   #13
Art Eatman
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To me, "better" is a function of purpose and to some extent, location. If you're shooting groundhogs at 100 yards, a .22 Hornet will work just fine.

If your deal is Ma Bell in open country, the .22-250 or the Swift has that bit of extra range over the .223.

I guess I'd rank the Hornet as close-range, the .223 as mid-range, and the Swift and Varminter as long-range.

Scorch, my uncle built up a Varminter, back in the late 1940s. He had a barrel from Jerry Gebby and used a Mauser 98 action that my father had brought back. Weaver K-10 scope, Bishop stock. 1/2-MOA rifle.

Several wildcaers in the 1920s/1930s messed around with the 250-3000 Savage, necking it down to .24 and .22. Jerry Gebby patented/copyrighted the "Varminter" that Remington (with very slight modifications) brought out as the .22-250. Shame they didn't buy the name.

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Old May 8, 2006, 11:56 AM   #14
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You get *about* 200-300 fps more out of it, give or take. Is this gonna help? Maybe. If it reaches the target faster, that's less time for wind to work on it. But it's still a very light bullet, so if you want to buck any significant wind well, you're gonna want to move up to a 6mm anyway or better (6mmBR, 6mmPPC, .243 win, 6mm rem, etc.). Thus, I see no need whatsover for a .22-250 personally. I'll stick with the .223. I consider the .17 HMR to be my short-range varminter (out to 125 yards) - with .22 hornet being a good substitute for .17 hmr, the .223 rem is the mid-range varminter (out to 250 yards), and the .243 win is the long-range varminter (out to 400 or so). Beyond that, it ain't happening give the usual winds around here and my skill. But this lineup roughly matches the trajectory to the likely reasonable wind drift for the range. One thing I will say about the .22-250 that makes it more appealing than previously is that Win white box cheap ammo comes in this caliber...
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Old May 9, 2006, 05:58 PM   #15
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"You get *about* 200-300 fps more out of it, give or take. Is this gonna help?"

Per the Hodgdon book, the max load for the .223 and 52-grain bullets is some 3,300 ft/sec. For the .22-250, it's some 3,700 ft/sec. (For the Swift, 3,800 ft/sec.)

Granted, it's only a 12% increase in velocity, but it's a 33% increase in energy. Definitely a bit more range and more "red mist".

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Old May 9, 2006, 07:57 PM   #16
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22-250

I have a 22-250 Rem 700 ADL. I've owned a mini 14 but sold it before shooting it much. I've killed 2 whitetails and lots of varmits with it. I like the accuracy and the knock down it has. It is one of the fastest rounds available I think in factory rounds. Too bad I can't hunt with it in WA state, otherwise it would've been my hunting rifle. Now I only use it for coyote and varmit hunting.
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Old May 9, 2006, 08:57 PM   #17
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I have that savage 223 - My son shoots in at 600 yards in long range competition (he's 13- we throw sandbags down and register him in f- class) . We load up 77 sierras w/ 24 .0 varget. its good out to 600 yds- his best score in ideal conditions was 11-12x - for y'all that haven't shot highpower , the x ring is 6" diameter . that isn't tuning the ammo for the gun - I just grab ammo loaded up for the service rifle.
It's been maybe 3 yrs since I bought it , and it may have changed since then, but doesn't the 22-250 come w/ a 12 twist? that kept me from even considering it.....
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Old May 9, 2006, 09:06 PM   #18
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tarheel, whats the twist rate on that particular .223?
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Old May 10, 2006, 12:19 AM   #19
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there's always the new 223wssm, it offers a little more then the 22-250 and is an equal to the swift.

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Old May 10, 2006, 05:36 AM   #20
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The only problem with the .22-250 is that cases stretch due to the tapered body. They must be trimmed often, about every other reloading.

There's a fix; rechambering to the .22-250 Ackley Improved. It makes the chamber walls straighter and a sharper shoulder angle, I believe. It will also increase the case capacity to allow Swift velocities with less powder. Do I have one? No; my .22-250 is exceedingly accurate and I don't want to lose accuracy for a few more fps and longer case life.

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Old May 10, 2006, 11:26 AM   #21
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Quote:
I have that savage 223 - My son shoots in at 600 yards in long range competition (he's 13- we throw sandbags down and register him in f- class) . We load up 77 sierras w/ 24 .0 varget. its good out to 600 yds- his best score in ideal conditions was 11-12x - for y'all that haven't shot highpower , the x ring is 6" diameter . that isn't tuning the ammo for the gun - I just grab ammo loaded up for the service rifle.
It's been maybe 3 yrs since I bought it , and it may have changed since then, but doesn't the 22-250 come w/ a 12 twist? that kept me from even considering it.....

Long range target shooting has seem to come up. Someone mentioned twist rates for the various .223s and 22-250s. The 1 in 9" twist can be found in some factory varmint/sniper rifles like the Rem 700P and 700LTR in .223 and all the Savages that are in .223 these days.

I don't know of any 22-250s with a twist rate that fast in a factory rifle? So , for long range target shooting with heavier bullets the .223 may not be as inferior as everyone is making it out to be. The shooter above certainly seems to do well!
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Old May 10, 2006, 03:02 PM   #22
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.22 cal long range

Long range shooting (600 yards) with a .22 centerfire (let alone .223) is a fairly recent developement considering the 80+ years of "varminting" with .22 centerfires. Only in the last decade or so have the ultra long heavy bullets and twists to stabilze them been commercially available. Things have certainly improved. Back when I was actively varmint shooting, the heaviest bullet commonly available was a 63gr semi-spitzer. Only the .22-250 and the .220 Swift had the powder capacity to make good use of these bullets, and they were considered the "bigger game" bullet for the .22 cal.

Every cartridge is designed to get maximum performance from a particular weight class. Even the .223 was designed to perform with the 55gr bullet. We have since discovered that good performance can be had with heavier bullets and twist rates intended for them. Put one of these 1 in 9 twist barrels on a .22-250 and see how it performs. I believe you will see a significant increase over the the .223.

Comparing a .223 set up for long range and a standard .22-250 is not essentially a fair comparison. Factories set twist rate based on what they consider to be the primary use of the cartridge. The classic example from a few decades ago is the .244 Remington. Intended to compete with the .243 Winchester, Remington thought it would be a fine varmint round. And it is. But gun writers (who convinced the public) thought of these 6mm cartridges as "dual purpose" (varmint and deer) for which they work well.

The .243 Winchester's faster twist rate (1 in 9 or 1 in 10) wroked well with the varmint bullets and the 105gr "deer" bullet. The .244 Remington with a 1 in 12 twist while fine with varmint bullets often would not shoot well with the 105gr deer load. People wanting a dual purpose rifle bought .243s, and not .244s. With sales in the toilet, Remington changed the twist rate, but the damage to the round's reputation had been done. Nobody wanted the .244. Remington changed the name of the cartridge to the 6mm Remington, and it has had a modest following ever since.

Factory .22-250 rifles have barrels intended to give best performance from the 50-55gr weight bullets. Twist rates are usually 1 in 12 or more often 1 in 14.

Compare equal bullets (and appropriate twists) and between the .223 and the .22-250 and I think you will find the higher velocity of the larger case will make a difference.
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Old May 10, 2006, 09:25 PM   #23
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Sorry for delay 1st freedom -629 shooter is correct. My rifle is 1:9 twist. We started out the 1st time w/ 69 sierras in front of 24.5 varget; elevation was ok (I feel comfortable saying 10 ring( thats 12" or 2 MOA) , though w/ a then 11 yr old in the 1st match ever the scores wouldn't show it. but even a light breeze would blow us all over; that isn't good for building a boys confidence. so I tried 77s next 20 rounds - no problems , and wind didn't hurt near as much . So son started calling shots ( " for real" - 1st 20 the answer was " in the X ") . so man we had fun the last 20 wind just enough to be interesting, and missed wind change only meant a 9. son likes going now. (BTW, I just got a deal on a LH 6.5-284 - if it shoots 1/2 as good as it looks 1000 yds is going to be fun for him too! ).
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Old May 11, 2006, 04:55 PM   #24
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Thank you tarheel!

Art, I was mistaken, and you were right. After looking at reload manuals...the .22-250 runs about 500-600 fps faster than the .223 rem. But, it "only" runs 400-500 fps faster than 5.56mm nato. Still, a significant difference. Therefore, I will now curse you kindly for piqueing my interest in this round and making me think that I need one of the Howa 1500/Leupold VX1 combos in .22-250 for under $600. Just when I thought I had my chaotic caliber proliferation under control.
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Old May 11, 2006, 08:18 PM   #25
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But, it "only" runs 400-500 fps faster than 5.56mm nato.

@First Freedom.
A "5.56mm Nato' is a .223 Rem,hence there is no "Velocity variation "between a 5.56mm Nato and a .223.It,s just the military name for it.
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