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Old April 29, 2006, 11:45 AM   #1
Kelly J
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Interduction

Just wanted to introduce myself, to the membership, I am a retired toolmaker that enjoys shooting, my totyal list of calibers is 45 colt, I own a Ruger Vaquero SS with 4 5/8 in. barrel, a S&W 625-9 Mountain gun 4 in. barrel, and last a Uberti 1873 Winchester in 45 colt with 24 1/4 in barrel.

I am very interested in reloading and at the present time I use a Dillon Square Deal B Press.

My current load for my 45's is Range brass, Win. LP Primers, Clays Powder, present load is.

5.1 gr Clays Powder
Win. LP Primer
Range Brass
Bullets: Hard Cast LRNFP and HDY HP/XTP both 250 gr.
COL 1.595 Rifle / 1.600 Revolvers
Published Velocity 817 FPS
The load is tame and a real pleasure to shoot, and reasonably accurate to 25 Yds.

I am interested in a load that is a bit above 14000PSI but not in the Heavy Ruger, TC, FA range, that is very accurate, as my goal is to place a well placed shot to accomplish the task at hand be it varmit or villian, I do posses a CCW License, and carry at all times.

Hope to have a pleasent experiance here and look forward to participating.

Last edited by Kelly J; April 30, 2006 at 10:43 AM.
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Old April 29, 2006, 02:22 PM   #2
ColtMember
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Welcome!
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Old April 29, 2006, 05:11 PM   #3
timothy75
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Nice choice of guns thats really all you need.
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Old April 29, 2006, 07:08 PM   #4
skeeter1
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Welcome to the club. I think you'll find a wealth of information here. Your load data sounds spot-on. You might want to go to www.winchester.com or www.hodgdon.com for some more load data.
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Old April 29, 2006, 09:50 PM   #5
Kelly J
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Skeeter 1

I am in the process of working up some expanded loads using the clays powder, the 5.1gr load at 817 FPS is as I stated pretty good and would do the job asked of it up to man or deer, but I want to try a few loads at .1 gr increase up to 5.6gr to see how they do and I will state up front before some get on my case that 5.1 is listed as a max load for the 45 colt, (That based on 14,000 PSI data) I don't want to get crazy but I would like a load with just a bit more athourity.

I tried a load of 10.5gr of Hodgdon HS-6 which should be right at 862 FPS Velocity, had two thing happen with that load, 1. loaded 6 fired 5 and inspected the 6th the round had jumped the crimp enough to completely straighten it out, this was in my 625, so according to S&W my load was too hot for my weapon, or the crimp was not enough, 2. Frankly the recoil difference between 817 and 862 was very pronounced, like going from a 32 to a 357+P load at first I thought I had goofed on the charge weight so when I got home I broke down three loads at random and weighed the charge, dead on at 10.5gr. This still has me a bit uneasy in regard to the difference in the felt recoil, I have saved several of the loads to test in my Vaquero and my buddys S&W 460 mag to measure the Velocity in the Crony./
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Old April 30, 2006, 09:51 AM   #6
JB696
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I just clicked on this one to see what "interduction" means. I thought it might be some kind of new metal heat-treating process or something. Silly me. Anyway, welcome to the forum.
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Old April 30, 2006, 09:56 AM   #7
Tamara
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I've taken the liberty of moving this to the reloading forum.
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Old April 30, 2006, 10:17 AM   #8
Jim Watson
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Clays is a very fast burning powder and you are on thin ice seeking higher velocity with it.

Published velocity for a given load means very little when it comes to shooting home-grown ammo in a mass produced gun. If your load listed for 817 fps is actually producing that velocity, I am a Chinaman. I do all load development over a chronograph and have seldom if ever seen a pistol load do what the book says it should.

Recoil and noise are not a reliable way of evaluating loads, wait to get on the Chrony before you make up your mind about anything.

A load that pulls bullets is doing something wrong. It may be an overload or there may be something wrong in your processing.
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Old April 30, 2006, 10:34 AM   #9
Kelly J
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Jim Watson

I agree with you on the published load data and the fact that a crony is an invaluable tool to evaluaye loads, but I think you might have misunderstood the part about the bullet jump that was a load of HS-6 shot in my model 625 Mountain gun and that load is supposed to be well with in the range and handleing ability of my weapon however I am not at all crazy about the fact that it was showing signs of a load that was to hot for the 625. I have not done any further evaluation of that load as yet, and when I get acess to my buddys Crony I will check it out.
I was told that my crimp die was the culprit with the HS-6 Load and thought that might be the problem so I called Dillon the maker of my reloading press and asked them to describe the crimp die to me so that I knew for sure what style of crimp it produced and was told that the die is a combination taper/roll crimp a light crimp setting will produce a taper crimp and the heavier setting will produce a roll crimp by adjusting the die down. I went on line and found a photo compairison of the two crimps and the crimp that is on my loads is in fact a roll crimp. So back to the problem, yet to be solved.
Sorry to be so long winded.
The clays loads I havd loaded and ready to test will not be tested without a Crony, I love my guns and hands to much to risk eigther one.
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Old April 30, 2006, 10:36 AM   #10
Kelly J
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Jb696

Sorry to mis;lead you I didn't realise that I had mispelled Introduction until you pointed it out, I will try to do better in the future.
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Old April 30, 2006, 10:38 AM   #11
Kelly J
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timothy75

Thank you!
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Old April 30, 2006, 10:47 AM   #12
Jim Watson
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Are your bullets tight in the brass BEFORE crimping?
You cannot crimp a loose bullet tight and if there were not sufficient bullet pull, that might be why shooting in a light gun like a Smith Mountain Gun pulled one.
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Old April 30, 2006, 11:01 AM   #13
Leftoverdj
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I'm with Jim. Range brass can cause some problems because of variation between makers. I don't fault you for using it for plinkers, but if you want to go a little hotter, you would be well advised to do it with a uniform lot of brass with a known history.

Increased recoil is an unavoidable side effect of increased velocity and also increases the chance of shaking a bullet loose. I've never had a bullet move forward in .45 Colt with a heavy crimp and I've shot some smoking loads in a Ruger Blackhawk.

A load that you might want to try is 9.5 grains of 800X behind the bullets that you are using. That should give you a bit more velocity while staying within normal pressure.
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Old April 30, 2006, 05:37 PM   #14
Kelly J
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Jim Watson

I would have to say the bullets are very tight before crimping, I haven't put a mic. on them but after seating the bullet, you can see a pronounced bulge in the case caused by the bullet.
The thing that is bothering me most at this time is the drastic difference felt in the recoil from the same gun with the what I see as a minor increase in load Velocity, I mean going from 817 FPS to 862 FPS which is a mear 45 FPS would generate such a pronounced difference in felt recoil, plus point of impact went completely wild.
Both of these loads are within the 14,000 PSI acording to the Hodgdon manual and are both stated as max for the CAS.

I know that a weapons weight will affect the noticeable recoil, and I fully expected a little bit of an increase but no where what I got.

All I am trying to accomplish here is a load that I can shoot accurately out to reasonable handgun ranges that will take a deer in Mo. and stop a perp from hurting my family.
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Old April 30, 2006, 05:48 PM   #15
Kelly J
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leftoverjd

I agree with your assesment of using range brass and had no intention of going above 14,000 PSI with anything other that a quality brass, and as I told jimwatson these two loads that I loaded were listed as a max CAS load pressure of 14,000 PSI, I guess that is why the HS-6 load supprised me so much, the 5.1 Clays was just fine and I had been using it for a while before desiding to try the HS-6 load, and after inspection the 6th round and discovered the bullet jump I knew something was not quite right here.
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Old April 30, 2006, 06:09 PM   #16
Jim Watson
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Well you have buffaloed me, the "coke bottle effect" is a pretty good sign that your bullets are snug in the brass.
But I repeat, I see little chance that your Clays load was really doing 817 fps. More like 700. No wonder it feels mild.
I don't know about the HS6, I loaded it in 9mm P only for a while but dropped it because it was the only powder I ever found that would foul a gun enough to hang it up in a day's normal shooting. I cannot find any .45 Colt data for it in a real gun.

Suggest you use factory loads for shooting intruders. I don't go along with the usual lawyer scares but there is something unusual going on here and I would not want to go to a gunfight with such peculiar ammunition.
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Old April 30, 2006, 07:16 PM   #17
Leftoverdj
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From a 1978 Lyman "Pistol and Revolver Handbook", HS-6 7.8-9.5 grains under a 255 grain cast. A 1987 Hodgdon booklet also shows 9.5 grains as max.
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Old April 30, 2006, 10:27 PM   #18
Kelly J
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leftoverdj

The actual load location was
http://www.reloadammo.com/45cload.htm

I thought it was on the Hodgdon site but the load there was a 260 GR Bullet using HS-6 Powder.

This is strange as I could have swore the data was Hodgdons, in fact I wrote it down as such, bad move!

I think I should back up and regroup here, at least get my facts straight.
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Old May 1, 2006, 09:39 AM   #19
Kelly J
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leftoverdj

After my reply last night I was concerned to think that I had used a bogus load data so I went down to my reloading room and researched my information, and manuals, here is what I found.
Hodgdon Reloaders Basic Manual 2005:
HS-6 Powder
260 GR. SPR GDHP
10.7gr at 865FPS 14,000CUP

One Book/ One Caliber 45 Colt 2004 Copyright:
250GR Cast LRNFP .452 Dia.
HS-6 Powder
9.0gr 743 FPS 7,800CUP
10.5gr 946 FPS 13,300 CUP (This is the Load I used)


250GR HDY HP/XTP .452 Dia. 1.595 COL
HS-6 Powder
9.7gr 743 FPS 9,700 CUP
10.8gr 862 FPS 13,500 CUP

This is the data that I used to try the 10.5gr load and was not to concerned about exceeding Max. Pressure based on the printed data that showed the load as not exceeding 45 cal. 14,000CUP's

But the bottom line is that my gun did not like it the crimp didnot hold it and I wasn't happy with the results of bullet jump, and lousy accuracy so to say the least that particular load is off the table.

I don't want to belabor this point as until I can test the loads I have using the clays powder, to see what the crony can tell me I am on hold for now, but the fact of bullet jump does concern me and for this reason, if I am going to find a good load to use in my Mountain Gun that will fall between 850 and 925 FPS what will the crimp do?
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Old May 1, 2006, 10:37 AM   #20
Leftoverdj
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Kelly, that range in data is nothing out of the ordinary. Pressure measurement is not a exact science. Neither is velocity. Different people and different guns get different results.

Jumping the crimp is troubling, but should be curable. I use a heavy roll crimp into a deep crimp groove and had no problem even in my younger, wilder days when I shot 255 cast at over 1200 fps. You might have a bullet problem. I've seen some bullets with minimal crimp grooves and even no crimp grooves at all.

You might try seating and crimping in two steps. Load up half a dozen dummy rounds as you usually do. Then back off the seating stem 2-3 turns and turn the die in 1/8 turn. Run a dummy round through again and check the crimp. It might even take a second 1/8 turn. By seating in one step and crimping in another the bullet stays in one place and the front shoulder of the groove is not pushed against the case. You can get a lot more crimp on that way.
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Old May 1, 2006, 07:57 PM   #21
Kelly J
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leftoverdj

The process you describe would be a problem, as I use a Dillon Square Deal B Press and I have adjusted the crimp down to the point that a straight land was generated by the Die, the Cast Bullets I am Using have a very pronounced groove for the crimp and until the Bullet jump have never been a problem. I really don't want to buy a second press just to crimp unless that is the only possible way to get it done.If I can talk the wife into loaning me her digital camara I will try to take a series of pictures to show the process and the finished load.
I might mention the process of the Dillon Press in case you may not be familuar with it,.
First station is the deprime anf resize, Second station primes, flairs, and despenses the powder, Third station seats the bullet and establishes the COL, The Last Station crimps the round. Each of these stations are independant of the other, and individually adjustable to achieve your desired result.
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Old May 1, 2006, 08:27 PM   #22
Leftoverdj
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Gotcha. You are already crimping the way I suggested because your press is set up to do it that way.

Only possibility I see left is that you got a short case. Using range brass, that could easily happen. Cases a bit shorter than your dies are set for would crimp less or not at all.
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Old May 1, 2006, 10:11 PM   #23
Kelly J
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leftoverdj

The crimp on the rounds appear to be good solid crimps, and acording to Dillon the crimp die is a combination die, which to explain what I was told on the phone when I call Dillon to verify the style of crimp thinking I did not have a Roll Crimp, The description is as follows: the die is a combination crimp die it will crimp a taper crimp which allows the round to locate properly on the case mouth for auto pistol rounds, but if you increase the depth of the crimp die it will make a roll crimp. When I first got my dies (EBAY Purchase) the crimp die apeared to be worn out in that the crimp left a flat above the crimp (Bullet side), so I called Dillon and they sent me a replacement die, so the die in the machine now is a new die. So where does that leave us?

What info do you need for me to supply to you to analyze this situation to a reasonable conclusion, Case Dimentions length, Dia. before and after Sizing, Bullet Dia. Weight Length, depth of crimp groove, what ever you want I will try to provide!
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Old May 1, 2006, 11:01 PM   #24
Leftoverdj
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The short case theory is all I have left. If you still have that case, you could measure it. We've eliminated everything else I can think off.

To keep that from happening again, you'd need to trim your cases. Nominal trim-to length is 1.280. You could go a little shorter, say 1.270, as long as they are all the same. Otherwise, you could trim to 1.280 and discard anything significantly shorter.

Try that, shoot a few hundred shots, and see if it happens again. I don't think it will.

btw, your background makes you exceptionally well qualified to handle reloading. Welcome aboard.
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Old May 2, 2006, 08:33 AM   #25
Kelly J
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leftoverdj

Thank you for your help and advice, I will go back and start the process over this time, I think I will start with new brass, size it to the correct length, and start working up the load again to get to where I should be.
It has been a real pleasure to converse with you on this subject and I really appreciate not being talked down to, that means a lot, I felt your advice came from experiance, rather than hear say, Thanks again.

Last edited by Kelly J; May 2, 2006 at 11:07 AM.
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