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Old April 24, 2006, 04:41 PM   #1
westphoenix
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WWYD - Video

What would you do if you were armed and witnessed this?

Watch the video first.
Make your decision, then read this:

The reason I ask you to watch the video first is because I don't think you should know the details until after you have made your decision on how to handle situation. If you were confronted with this scenario you wouldn't know the details until later. Of course in this scenario you also wouldn't have much time to make a decision, but there's not much we can do about that here.

Just curious to see what you guys think you would have done and what you think should have been done.

Last edited by westphoenix; April 24, 2006 at 05:18 PM.
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Old April 24, 2006, 05:07 PM   #2
Blackwater OPS
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Monday morning quarterbacking is easy here, he never should have approached a group that large alone. A good tactical pocket folder would have served nicely there. a Handgun would have been pretty useless IMO, I would have left it in the holster and pulled my CRKT M16. It kinda hard to beat on someone with your tendons cut That guy deserves some credit for walking away from a beating like that though.
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Old April 24, 2006, 05:14 PM   #3
westphoenix
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What would you do if you were armed and witnessed this?
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Old April 24, 2006, 05:17 PM   #4
Topthis
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I'm pretty sure that the reason this guy was attacked, was because he was alone. These perps were looking for an easy target and I am sure that there was a supercharge of adrenaline as they certainly had security in numbers. Serious wrong place at the wrong time for the victim...it will be interesting to see how the casinos work up a plan for this.
As for what I would have done if I witnessed this and were armed...well, i sure as hell wouldn't pull out my weapon, who knows what the kids had underneath their coats? Don't even want to think about what this could escalate into!! I would have most likely run to help the guy...after calling 911, maybe gotten excellent descriptions of a few of the perps, maybe followed them to make sure that there would be a greater than average chance of catching them...ahhh, perhaps I would have pulled out my "9" Iron and started to whack some noggins!!
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Old April 24, 2006, 05:17 PM   #5
rapier144
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west

Second post??????????
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Old April 24, 2006, 05:25 PM   #6
westphoenix
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Guess I didn't search well enough.....

Sorry

Quote:
Originally Posted by rapier144
Second post??????????
Do you have a link?
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Old April 24, 2006, 06:25 PM   #7
Blackwater OPS
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Quote:
What would you do if you were armed and witnessed this?
Deadly force. Hit the first guy you have a clean shot at and hope the rest scatter. If they don't well, hopefully you took that shot from behind some cover and you have few extra mags. You haven't been neglecting your range time have you?
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Old April 24, 2006, 09:01 PM   #8
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link is no good, but I found the clip. My first thought was a warning shot to try and scatter the gang. However, my daily carry is for defence, and It would be hard to engage this crowd from a distance with my p-11. Better to call 911 first, and then give first aid. It wouldn't do the victom any good to get myself beat. If I had more ammo, and a longer range weapon my answer would be different. It would not be easy to watch this happen.
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Old April 24, 2006, 09:15 PM   #9
error426
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Hard to say. Depending on my distance, I believe I would fire a few shots in the air (if I'm covered by something), in hopes the shots would scatter them. If not, I would take 2 or 3 shots at the crowd randomly (again hoping this scatters them), if this does no good -- then the guy being beat is sol. Right after this I would dial 911, as I'm sure others nearby would be doing as well.

Though if you look at I from a different perspective, if I escalated the situation, I could get the guard killed / or myself as well.

To be honest, it's hard to say what would really go down. I can say for a fact if it were less than 5, I'd take the shots. But 10+, I'm just not that confident -- nor would I want to see the victim or possibly other victims killed or beaten half to death.
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Old April 24, 2006, 09:19 PM   #10
DNK
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I couldn't find the link. From the posts I read, am I correct in assuming this is the video of the guy at the MGM in Vegas getting the snot beaten out of him by the mob of teenagers?
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Old April 24, 2006, 09:26 PM   #11
Kiel_Everett
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That incident happened sometime last week here in Las Vegas. Another related incident occurred the day after at a Wal-Mart, where the mob attacked a Wal-Mart employee and then turned on a woman who tried to help the employee. They have a total of 3 in custody I believe.

I don't carry, but I sure would try to help. I don't think I could live with myself afterwards if I just 'watched'. Kind of makes you wonder, "Did anyone see this?"
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Old April 24, 2006, 10:01 PM   #12
garryc
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Call the cops.
This from Ohio's CCW booklet, read espesially the red letter parts;

Defense of Others
A person may defend another only if the protected person
would have had the right to use self-defense. Under Ohio law, a
person may defend family members, friends or strangers. However,
just as if he were protecting himself, a person cannot use any
more force than is reasonable and necessary to prevent the harm
threatened.
A defendant, who claims he used deadly force to protect
another, has to prove that he reasonably and honestly believed that
the person he protected was in immediate danger of serious bodily
harm or death and that deadly force was the only way to protect the
person from that danger. Furthermore, the defendant must also
show that the protected person was not at fault for creating the
situation and did not have a duty to leave or avoid the situation.
WARNING:
The law specifically discourages citizens from taking
matters into their own hands and acting as law enforcement
agents. This is true even if the person thinks he is performing a
good deed by protecting someone or helping law enforcement.
The Ohio Supreme Court has ruled that a person risks criminal
charges if he interferes in a struggle and protects the person who
was at fault, even if he mistakenly believed that person did not
create the situation.
In other words, if you misinterpret a situation and interfere,
you may face criminal charges because your use of deadly force
is not justified. If you do not know all the facts and interfere,
you will not be justified to use force. It does not matter that you
mistakenly believed another was in danger and not at fault.
Of greater concern than risking criminal charges is the fact
that you may be putting yourself and others in danger. If you
use your handgun to interfere in a situation, and an officer
arrives on the scene, the officer will not be able to tell if you are
the criminal or if you are the Good Samaritan.
Ohio law does not encourage vigilantism. A license to
carry a concealed handgun does not deputize you as a law
enforcement agent. Officers are trained to protect members of
the community, handle all types of situations and enforce the
law. Do not allow the privilege to carry a concealed handgun
give you a false sense of security or empowerment. Let law
enforcement officers do their job. If you want to be a Good
Samaritan, call the police.


How do I know what started it, how do I know that he didn't make a racial slur. I Don't
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Old April 24, 2006, 10:17 PM   #13
Blackwater OPS
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Thats some crazy case law you have got there in Ohio, since you do not appear to need intent in order to commit a crime. I would like to see the case/example where a person was convicted under those circumstances. BTW CCTV camera feeds in Vegas to not go unwatched for very long, I am certain the police were on the way.

Quote:
A defendant, who claims he used deadly force to protect
another, has to prove that he reasonably and honestly believed that
the person he protected was in immediate danger of serious bodily
harm or death and that deadly force was the only way to protect the
person from that danger.
This was the case, 911 would not have saved the guy from the injuries he received nor the risk of death.
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Old April 24, 2006, 11:25 PM   #14
garryc
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The state of the criminal justice system in Ohio is rather dismal. And I work for the system as a corrections officer.

I think it goes something like this;

Bill (prosecutor) meets bob (defense attorney) at the local country club. As they are getting smashed ( So they can get pulled over in their cars later and prove they are impervious to the law), Bill says to Bob, " Hey Bob, I really need a conviction in this case for my political carrier. You know if you scratch my back I'll scratch yours."
Bob says, " OK Bill, but let me bleed this stooge dry first and then I'll get him to plea to a slightly lesser charge. By the way, when you move up the ladder you'll need someone you can trust ( read that as conspired with) to fill in behind you in public office. By the way, ask the judge to make some meaningless mistakes so we can appeal and bleed his family dry too."
Bill says, " We can do that again. By the way, do you have that little "Campaign Contribution" for me?"

I think it goes like that
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Old April 24, 2006, 11:53 PM   #15
DNK
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I watched the video a few days ago and posted the same kinds of questions. Baba Louie shed some light with the actual Nevada statute, which seems to be considerably different than Ohio's law (in a good way). Your results may vary by state. Here's the thread if interested.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=208703
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Old April 25, 2006, 07:37 AM   #16
nefshooter
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Thats what this world is turning into if he or anyone would have used deadly force you know what would have happened "He was just a young boy (girl) in with the wrong crowd he didn't have to shoot him" I'm so tired of the BS today a person getting the crap beat ot of him can't defend themselves today. You may get out of the criminal suit but its the civil ones that burn you. I read a story in a mag of a 80+ yr old man who shot a guy breaking in his home killed him it cost the man over 10 grand in the civil case when the guys family filled wrongful death charges on him. Thats why i stay home plus gas is to dang high to go anywhere!
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Old April 25, 2006, 08:09 AM   #17
garryc
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Quote:
it cost the man over 10 grand in the civil case when the guys family filled wrongful death charges on him.
If it only cost him 10 G's then he won the case. Of course it was a loose loose situation. He may have been able to go against the family for wrongfully sueing him but likely even if he had won he would not have been able to collect. I think the attorney should have to pay him.
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Old April 25, 2006, 08:26 AM   #18
Wisby
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I would wish I wasn't armed...

Then I would Yell stop or I'll shoot and pray everyone stopped. If they didn't and came at me i'd aim low and make sure I emptied my clip... After that I'd have to take my beating with the other Guy if it didn't stop em... Or get killed by them.
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Old April 25, 2006, 10:30 AM   #19
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Quote:
That guy deserves some credit for walking away from a beating like that though.
Either that or those guys hit like girls.

Monday morning quarterbacking says I would command them to stop or get shot. If they didn't I would shoot the biggest threat that I could safely hit without hurting (even more) the good guy. If they turned on me the first few would be leaking profusely prior to punching on me. Once my gun was empty my cold steel tanto voyager would disembowel anyone within range. Unless of course I was KO'ed or killed.

Correct me if I'm wrong but police cannot use anything you say against you in court until you have been marandized. If this is correct then you are free to talk to police up and until they marandize you. They can't use anything before that against you.
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Old April 25, 2006, 11:21 AM   #20
Blackwater OPS
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Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but police cannot use anything you say against you in court until you have been marandized. If this is correct then you are free to talk to police up and until they marandize you. They can't use anything before that against you.
That is NOT correct. I am not going to give you legal advice though, I will leave that to someone else.
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deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
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Old April 25, 2006, 12:14 PM   #21
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Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but police cannot use anything you say against you in court until you have been marandized. If this is correct then you are free to talk to police up and until they marandize you. They can't use anything before that against you.
Nope. Miranda only applies when police ask you specific questions about your involvement in an incident. If you volunteer anything, it's considered spontaneous confession, and it's fully admissible in court.

If I ask you, "did you shoot him?", before Miranda, your "yes" would be thrown out of court.

But if I ask the crowd in general, "who shot him?", and you pipe up with a "I did", or I ask you a general question like "what happened?", and you answer "I shot him", that is fully admissible.

The truth is that most cops will delay Miranda and direct questioning as long as they can, in hopes that suspects will say something stupid on their own.

Prior to video recording equipment in cruisers, I caught two burglary suspects and placed both in the back of my cruiser. Then I left them alone, and sure enough, they both yaked back & forth to get their stories straight. What they didn't know was that I left a micro-cassette recorder running on the front seat . It caught everything, and it fried both of them in court. Both Miranda and expectation of privacy objections were brought up by the defense, and both were denied by the judge.
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Old April 25, 2006, 12:30 PM   #22
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Quote:
How do I know what started it, how do I know that he didn't make a racial slur. I Don't
Is a racial slur deserving of a death penalty?

That warning in Ohio was probably penned by the viciously anti-gun police chiefs and prosecutors who fought tooth and nail against the passage of Ohio's concealed carry licensing law.

However, it is indeed something that should be kept in mind no matter what state you're in - for example, an undercover cop attempting to arrest a violently-resisting prostitute. The various incidents of New York City cops being shot to death by their colleagues is a very clear illustration of the risks.
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Old April 25, 2006, 01:18 PM   #23
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I would not have engaged with a concealled pistol; the rules of engagement would appear to be clear that the guy receiving a kicking was on going to die from it and that lethal force, therefore, would be unjustified.

Anyone who claims that they would engage them, apart from being gung ho, would probably end up behind bars - how would you justify it?
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Old April 25, 2006, 02:48 PM   #24
westphoenix
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People have died from one punch to the head or neck.
6 people surrounding someone and taking turns punching and kicking them and using weapons (belts or chains) could easily result in serious bodily harm (which IMO it did) and/or death. They could have paralyzed this man or left him with internal bleeding/damaged organs. What if the man lost eye during this attack? The actions of the attackers was life threatening (at the least serious bodily harm) and justifies deadly force IMO.

I can't say whether I would shoot or not. It would be my gut feeling at the time. But I can say when I watch the video I got very angry and wondered if the victim would be killed. I would have probably given one warning and starting shooting. Ill take my chances in court and hope my fellow law-abiding citizens understand the situation. The fact that it was video taped would only help the shooters case IMO. If I were on a jury all of the persons involved in the attack would get the maximum sentence. If it were up to me they would get the death penalty. Our society does not need violent criminals like this (in prison or on the streets). These "people" make me :barf:
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Old April 25, 2006, 03:00 PM   #25
DNK
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Soldier, I think "the rules of engagement would appear to be clear that the guy receiving a kicking was on [not] going to die from it and that lethal force, therefore, would be unjustified" is assuming quite a bit. In hindsight it might appear that, because the guy walked away from it (with a broken collar bone and jaw), deadly force wasn't applied against him. I would say that guy's guardian angel was working overtime. One hard kick in the throat, temple or behind the ear and the guy could easily have suffered brain damage or death. If you're shot and don't die, was that an absence of deadly force?

That being said I think there are a lot of other variables here. Nevada law has a lot to say about justifiable homicide including:

NRS 200.200 Killing in self-defense. If a person kills another in self-defense, it must appear that:

1. The danger was so urgent and pressing that, in order to save his own life, or to prevent his receiving great bodily harm, the killing of the other was absolutely necessary; and

2. The person killed was the assailant, or that the slayer had really, and in good faith, endeavored to decline any further struggle before the mortal blow was given.

Perception and reasonableness are also both important here (as always). So is accuracy, shooting one of the punks who's just watching or one who punched and ran will probably land you in the pokey. Bottom line is that you have to be able to justify your actions, to a jury if necessary.

I think these kind of real world scenarios are great because they make the law abiding owners think about their engagement parameters of who what, when, where, why and how. Much like the decision to eject from an aircraft, you want to have all these parameters figured out before hand and not waste precious seconds thinking should I or shouldn't I, as you're packing it in. As long as people know what their parameters are for using their weapon, that's the important thing and that's a personal decision.

This story is still unfolding and these thugs are accused of even more crimes. The LV RJ reported:

-Beating, robbery of woman at a Wal-Mart in North LV 2 hrs prior to MGM attack. Beating, robbery of man at a Travelodge 1/2 hr after MGM attack

-24 hrs later, four attacks around Vegas Dr. and Tenaya Wy. Robbery of Green Valley Grocery - 7951 Vegas Dr., nearby beating, robbery of a couple in Pioneer Park, and a shooting there.

I guess one of them either already had or acquired a gun somewhere along the line. Maybe a responsible CCW holder in any of these incidents could've stopped one or more of these crimes, maybe not.

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