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Old April 23, 2006, 03:31 AM   #1
marlboroman84
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Video: What he did wrong and would it be justified?

I just came across the video and after viewing the Trooper Mark Coates video that someone posted I thought this might be a good one to discuss.

http://www.wimp.com/poorcop/

Now after viewing that what would any LEOs out there have to say and if this was just the common concealed carry citizen how would you react?

My question is wouldn't this be justified if the LEO had shot this man? I would say that kind of beating would meet the requirement for severe bodily harm.

Secondly, while I don't know the exact circumstances for the officer approaching the passenger instead of the driver, it would seem the officer just did not respond to it correctly. It may just be the fact of being caught offguard. I definitely wanna hear what any LEO would say as far as handling this scenario and how to train for this.

Discuss
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Old April 23, 2006, 04:11 AM   #2
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Very Unfortunate

Poor training. Mistakes were made. Always call for backup even if U don't think U need it. Also, if U want to be a LEO, U have to be a bad @$$. U have to know how to mess people up in self-defense if that is what it comes down to. I don't know what he was doing opening the car door like that and he was too close to the perp. He shouldn't have touched his arm like that.
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Old April 23, 2006, 04:23 AM   #3
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I don't believe it was a matter of poor training. You can get all the training in the world and it'll do you not one whit of good if you don't apply it. It was more a matter of poor mind-set. It seemed the LEO's attitude was "Business as usual, just another routine stop." And things went seriously sideways from there. The LEO was fortunate that the assailant seemed more interested in beating the snot out of him than trying to take his pistol.

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Old April 23, 2006, 06:32 AM   #4
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Lazy, sloppy, arrogant, overconfidant...a lot of words come to mind.

Did he already request backup? If not, why? (lazy, sloppy)

If backup was on its way, why didn't he wait? (overconfidant)

Why open the door? Why get so close? (arrogant)

*** was he doing parking on one side of an automatic gate, and going to the other side?! As you saw in the video, the gate was closing while he was getting pummeled. What if he was stuck on the other side, away from assistance, or the safety of his vehicle?

Yes, his fellow cops could hop the gate, but that's additional seconds.

Most gates have bump sensors that keep the gate from closing if a car is obstructing it, so why not park so as to keep it open for backup to pull in?

He could just have easily driven into the driveway on their side, blocked the way with his vehicle, and kept a vehicle between him and the subjects, using verbal commands until backup arrived.

I also saw him make a grab for his gun, but didn't complete the action, instead choosing to shield his head, rather than using his weapon.

Perhaps he was keeping his gun in his holster to keep it from getting grabbed, or maybe he was too busy covering his head to draw it...who knows.

Lucky for him that the driver was more interested in leaving the scene than helping his homey beat down a cop!

What would the cop have done with TWO people beating him? The moment he draws, he might get his gun taken and used against him, but if he doesn't draw he might get beat to death or otherwise permanently f'd up.

He'd have been justified to shoot the dude attacking him, but he should also be severely reprimanded for his failure. Remedial training is also in order as well as reminding all other officers to follow proper procedure and get backup if needed.
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Old April 23, 2006, 08:22 AM   #5
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Quote:
Lazy, sloppy, arrogant, overconfidant...a lot of words come to mind.
OK, someone needs to stand up for the police officer, so I guess it will be me. It is easy to be a monday-morning quarterback, but sometimes things go wrong; remember, this officer doesn't have the luxery of sitting behind a computer and making comments after the fact. He actually has to make the split-second decisions, and physically deal with a dangerous person.

Was the officer caught off-guard? Obviously. But the officer is doing his best in a bad situation. It is not like the officer is throwing up his hands and saying, "please don't hit me, I give up." I'd say that considering the CRIMINAL had the element of surprise, the officer did pretty well in preventing the CRIMINAL from disarming the officer. Sometimes you have to do the best that you can do in a bad situation.

I'm glad that those of you who are so caustic with your comments always do your jobs perfectly. Could the officer have done things better? Probably. But please refrain from the insulting comments. Want to talk about tactics? Fine by me. But don't simply make general comments about how "lazy" or "arrogent" the officer was. Maybe he had called to backup. Maybe there were other things/circumstances that the video doesn't show.
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Old April 23, 2006, 09:14 AM   #6
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Quote:
I'm glad that those of you who are so caustic with your comments always do your jobs perfectly.
Yeah he screwed up. He may have done hundreds of stops like this all by the book and many in a sloppy manner, this one got him. Repetition does that to you. I can't say I've never stepped outside procedure, assuming passivity on the part of the inmate. I just haven't got caught by it yet. Clips like this bring home the importance of following procedure, even if it is repetitive and mundane.
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Old April 23, 2006, 09:40 AM   #7
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So what's the lesson? What did I learn from it? I'm not a cop, but I saw an example on how distance gives or takes reaction time and why you never turn your back on an attacker. Now here is the real question... perp turned and assaulted the cop, the cop backed up facing the perp, but didn't draw. Why? Is there a legal issue the cop was thinking about? Why didn't he shoot him?
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Old April 23, 2006, 10:47 AM   #8
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Now here is the real question... perp turned and assaulted the cop, the cop backed up facing the perp, but didn't draw. Why?
From the tape I'd say that the cop was mentally totally unprepared for the incident. Had he approached the incident with the proper mind set his reaction time would have likely been much faster. It takes a moment for the mind to realize that this is really happening when going from a relaxed state. That?s the nature of being human. He broke several standard rules and paid for it.
The perp obviously had already decided on his course of action before the cop opened the door. His mind and body was prepared. I'd like to know if the perp had a warrant out on him or if he and his associate had just committed a crime but had they their adrenaline would likely have been pumping prior to the cop reaching the door.
To the cops credit, during the assault he kept the perps hand trapped on his gun side. That was the only real aspect of USD training I saw.
While many cops are arrogant and on a power trip, you can't automatically assume this one is. He just screwed up.
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Old April 23, 2006, 11:20 AM   #9
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Does anyone know the full story behind this incident?

As an Explorer at LVMPD, I was/am taught command presence is key. You are the police and you are in charge of the situation. (Well, you should be, thats your job) I think he should have called the subject out of the car and took control. It's odd the way the stop was initiated. He has the subject stopped car nose to car nose and while hes coming out of an automate gated area. Something we don't know about must have occurred to make the officer initiate the stop that way.

I guess this kinda puts a whole new meaning on, "You don't have to win your fights as a police officer, you just have to survive them until back-up arrives."

Its hard to say because I don't know the background info on this...just my $.02
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Old April 23, 2006, 11:22 AM   #10
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Search, O Grasshopper

The search function is your friend. This has been discussed in detail and your answers are probably found there.

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Old April 23, 2006, 02:07 PM   #11
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Everyone makes mistakes once in a while. It's easy to say "Oh in that line of work you can't afford to make mistakes". EVERYONE makes mistakes once in a while. It's easy to look at the video and rag out on the LEO and say he should have done this or he shouldn't have done that. The fact is that he is still alive. The suspect is the one that should be ragged out on. This piece of filth appeared to be not only wanting to hurt, but had the face of RAGE. He appeared to want to kill the LEO. He did not and have any intentions of going back to prison. Those who use certain words to rag on the LEO probably are not LEO's. And if they are, i'm sure they have a perfect work record and never made a mistake. Also the bystander needs some recognition for helping the LEO out. How many of us who CC would have helped this officer out? Yeah right.
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Old April 23, 2006, 03:59 PM   #12
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Quote:
The search function is your friend. This has been discussed in detail and your answers are probably found there.
First time I have seen this one, please post a link the the other threads.
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Old April 23, 2006, 04:11 PM   #13
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I didn't think he was beat that bad. He was still standing at the end of the video it could have been much much worse. Hopefully this was a object lesson for him. What he did wrong in my opinion was after the first blow was throwed he tried to retreat. It was too late at that point. He should have taken the fight to the assailent. It's hard as hell to win a fist fight backing up. Plus it's really hard to hit your target with your back to it.
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Old April 23, 2006, 04:35 PM   #14
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First thanks for commenting everyone. My view of it as the tape presents it,(now knowing what the full story is), is that as another poster said the officer seemed a bit to relaxed. I think that's the one thing that gets all of us though is becoming to confident. I remember my dad telling me when I bought my first motorcycle that as soon as I got to comfortable that's when I'd wreck and sure enough. I wanna say too that I did not post the video to say 'Hey look at the sloppy job the LEO did wow he got his butt kicked good, I would have done....(insert Rambo comment here)', but I posted it to see what others,especially LEOs, would say training wise. i think it's a huge necessity for LEOs,military,and even the concealed carry citizen to always be prepared and be trained and ready. I'm very glad that the end of the tape does show someone rushing to help the officer out and hope everything went better from there. in response to another poster who asked how many CC's would have helped the officer, I would expect someone to at least do something, call 911, jump in, even shoot the guy. I'm sure the DA wouldn't prosecute for you killing a guy that was trying to seriously injure or kill a LEO. Just my opinion though.
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Old April 23, 2006, 04:49 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by springmom
Search, O Grasshopper
Please O Wise One show us your wisdom and lead us to the thread that has discussed this in detail.


This is reminiscent of the story in Baton Rouge where the goon was beating the cop so badly a bystander stepped in and shot the guy 5 times before he finally realized he was dead.

Did they catch the assailant? If shooting this guy isn't "justified" then nothing is. If anyone hears the complete story please post the link because I'm sure everyone is very interested.
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Old April 23, 2006, 04:59 PM   #16
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Complacency kills

Quote:
From the tape I'd say that the cop was mentally totally unprepared for the incident. Had he approached the incident with the proper mind set his reaction time would have likely been much faster. It takes a moment for the mind to realize that this is really happening when going from a relaxed state. That?s the nature of being human.
There's a lesson here for all of us. Familiarity does breed contempt, and contempt is dangerous.

Complacency is one of the most common, difficult to overcome, and dangerous problems LEO's have today. At some point in their careers, almost all officers allow the word "routine" into their lives. Let's face it, if you made several thousand traffic stops with the only problem being griping about a ticket, you tend to loose that edge.

Even when we send officers to street survival schools, they come back for a few weeks ready to take on Rambo, and then slip back into complacency.

The human body... and mind, just isn't designed to remain in "condition red" for very long. It's very taxing, and the natural tendency is to step down to a more relaxed state.

It's a major problem for LE, military, and the average guy trying to cope with a bad neighborhood over a long period of time, and there are no easy answers.

Personally, I try to deal with it by staying at condition yellow rather than red. I try to stay relaxed but alert, aware but not paranoid, and I train hard so that my body and mind know when to go from yellow to red without really thinking about it or dwelling on it.

The first step though, is self awareness of the problem and being truthful with yourself. Once you've become aware of your own complacency, you've won half the battle.
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Old April 23, 2006, 05:07 PM   #17
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Like the nice guy I am I went and searched for the link. Here ya go...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in563855.shtml

it's the first story and Capt. Charlie I couldn't agree with your post more. Well said.
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Old April 23, 2006, 05:47 PM   #18
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marlboroman, thank you for posting the story. People do make mistakes. Just that police officers get the short end of the stick when they make them. And, Capt. Charlie is right, complacency is a huge hurdle in the law enforcement profession. My advisors teach us to never become complacent, they even go as far as not allowing us to put our hands in our pockets in class. If they catch us, they do some sort of assault scenario randomly.
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Old April 23, 2006, 05:54 PM   #19
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it's always sad when somebody has to call the cops to save a cop.
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Old April 23, 2006, 06:01 PM   #20
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marlboroman84,

Thanks for that link. It's too bad that scumbag it ONLY just sitting in jail waiting for trial. He deserves a lot more then that for assaulting that cop like that.

But then you see a story like this next one and you have to wonder just what the hell is going on.
Quote:
A northern Texas police officer was on trial April 18 to face assault charges for actions captured by his dashboard camera.
Irving, Texas, police officer Daniel Miller faced Jose Palomino in a Dallas County courtroom.
In January 2006, Miller's dashboard camera videotaped him pepper spraying and striking Palomino, an undocumented immigrant, following a traffic stop.
Investigations of the incident revealed that Palomino is mentally challenged, does not speak English and therefore did not understand the commands Miller was shouting.
Dallas prosecutors say the officer went too far because the situation did not warrant his actions.
Look at this: http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/videop...oxMLC=national The problem is this guy does not understand any of the cops commands and then the cop continues to beat him even after his backup arrives and has the guy in handcuffs. I wonder if it's normal procedure to make someone lay on the ground during a traffic stop in Texas? There must be thousands of non-English speaking people in Texas. Don't you think that this police officer might have thought just maybe this guy didn't speak English and didn't understand his commands. I'm not a cop but it didn't look like this guy was a threat, he even looked like he was trying to comply but was unsure what the cop wanted. Remember they said this guy was mentally challenged also. Now he's going to be rich too! Am I way off base here or what?
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Old April 23, 2006, 06:02 PM   #21
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you know what, when you walk the edge every day, sometimes you go too far and sometimes you don't go far enough.
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Old April 23, 2006, 07:39 PM   #22
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As a correctional officer i face these type of people everyday. We are trained to always have that gap to react to this type of stuff. Sometimes you do get caught with your hands down. The best thing the officer could do IS NOT TO TURN HIS BACK!!!! as much as it hurts you can't fight back with your back(tried it it don't work) He really should have tried to take him to the ground. It changes things when you go to the ground. Or try to make distance and come back to the fight better prepaired this time. Or my favorite a finger in the eye!!! oops!
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Old April 23, 2006, 07:58 PM   #23
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I dont think that cop was a good hand to hand fighter.

I think some judo would have put an end to that one real quick, as the black guy just kept rushing and hitting. seems like the black guy wasnt much of a fighter either,

looked like two girls going at it in the ladies room.
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Old April 23, 2006, 08:08 PM   #24
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NEF Did you note that when the cop backed off he did so in a straight line, right in the line of the perps power. He should have cut around that door to buy some time by having an obstacle. When I'm at work at the ODR+C I have no weapons of any kind (other than several Folger Adams Keys,LOL)). So I will use anything I can to break the inmates line of assault. In this case I might have cut around that door and then slammed it into him.


I like the Eye bit. One time I had an inmate try to round house punch me. Some how, when I was going for the arm bar take down my forearm impacted the bridge of his nose. Can't help it, its a dynamic situation.
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Old April 23, 2006, 08:55 PM   #25
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I want to know more about this film before really giving an opinion. I wonder if the "cop" is actually a security guard working the gate of a gated community. His training, if that were the case, would not be the same as a law officer.

At any rate...his mistake was that he was to close to the suspect, and in fact opened the door for the suspect. How he could have gotten around that, I do not know, perhaps keep the car door between him and the suspect. I agree that a normal stop would have had the cop on the driver's side of the car. The cop apparently knew who he was about to deal with, since he was focused on the passenger. Perhaps there was no time for back-up to arrive, eventhough it had been requested. Who can say?

It is telling that the driver left the scene, and an onlooker came running up either to help the officer or the criminal.

If this officer had been able to get a bullet in the head of this criminal I believe he would have been totally justified. I do not need more information to state that. I do think it would have taken a head shot to stop him. The problem, of course is as soon as you unholster that gun in a slugfest or wrestling match, you can lose control of it.

I wish the end of the tape, or just more information was available.
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