The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 18, 2006, 10:46 AM   #1
Crazi
Member
 
Join Date: December 31, 2005
Location: Va
Posts: 27
Talking to Police

Just read this very interesting article. I am sure others have already read it but just posting it for all to see.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tact...article411.htm
__________________
"...copper wrapped lead exiting from a length of cylindrical steel extremely hastily in the direction of a zombie or boogey man..."
Crazi is offline  
Old April 18, 2006, 11:23 AM   #2
PSE
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 23, 2004
Location: stupids womb, SC
Posts: 475
#1 "A kid broke into my home and attacked me with a knife. I shot him with my gun to protect myself. He collapsed outside the door of my bedroom. I?m calling you from the telephone in my bedroom. Please send the police and an ambulance."

#2 "I was standing in line waiting to buy tickets when I stepped on the shoe of a boy who was standing in line behind me. He and several other boys attacked me, knocked me to the ground and began kicking and stomping me. I shot at them in self-defense. I want to cooperate with your investigation, but I?ve got to talk with my attorney before I can tell you anymore."


how about this from my personal short list...
"Listen officer, i know you are just doing your job and im gonna make it easier for you. i hope you understand, but, im not saying anything until i speak with my lawyer. Then ill be happy to give you everything to the absolute best of my recollection, OK?"
PSE is offline  
Old April 18, 2006, 01:20 PM   #3
SBrocker8
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2, 2005
Posts: 111
The way some cops and many lawyers are, I wouldn't say a THING until I talked with an attorney. Not a THING, other than perhaps "It was in self defense" or "I fully intend to cooperate with this arrest" and then comply with EVERYTHING the cop says while being taken into their custody.
SBrocker8 is offline  
Old April 18, 2006, 01:44 PM   #4
invention_45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 30, 2006
Location: Broward County
Posts: 972
Thanks, Crazi.

Good article. I emailed it home.
invention_45 is offline  
Old April 19, 2006, 01:59 AM   #5
chemist308
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2005
Location: Pocono Mtns, PA
Posts: 587
Good article. I read it and hope never to have to be in that situation. One underlying theme: have an attorney.
__________________
critters: the other red meat
Live in PA? PA Firearms Owners Association
chemist308 is offline  
Old April 19, 2006, 03:21 AM   #6
stealthmode
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2004
Posts: 148
very informative thanks for the info
stealthmode is offline  
Old April 19, 2006, 08:09 PM   #7
Mannlicher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2001
Location: North Central Florida
Posts: 2,973
I agree with those that caution against saying anything at all to the coppers until your attorney is there.
__________________
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan
Mannlicher is offline  
Old April 20, 2006, 06:59 AM   #8
shamus005
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 2, 2005
Posts: 526
The police can and will use everything you say against you in a court of law.

Bear that in mind.

Be totally compliant with the police but say nothing until you have a lawyer.
shamus005 is offline  
Old April 20, 2006, 10:00 AM   #9
liliysdad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 7, 2004
Posts: 1,144
As a cop, I advise you to say nothing until you have an attorney present.
liliysdad is offline  
Old April 20, 2006, 01:59 PM   #10
crow
Member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2005
Location: Alabama
Posts: 76
I am not saying this as a dig towards our law enforcement. I have friends that are police officers and I respect those that "serve and protect".

But, let's never forget; all policemen and LE are not 2nd ammendment friendly. Many of them are very liberal in their views of private gun ownership and our RIGHT.

Crow
crow is offline  
Old April 20, 2006, 02:36 PM   #11
liliysdad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 7, 2004
Posts: 1,144
The right to keep and bear arms is irrelevant. The LE officers primary function is to investigate the crime.
liliysdad is offline  
Old April 20, 2006, 07:48 PM   #12
TexiCali Slim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2006
Location: H-E-B Tejas
Posts: 175
"Murrrr, See coppah I aint sayin nothin See! Murrrr!"
TexiCali Slim is offline  
Old April 20, 2006, 09:11 PM   #13
Blackwater OPS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,153
A good article, I think it protects the real victim and allows and investigation to proceed as quickly as possible. Despite this, I would say NOTHING until I can reach my lawyer.
__________________
"Those who would give up essential Liberty,
to purchase a little temporary Safety,
deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
-Ben Franklin

Spc. Jeremy M. Campbell
Died 9/1/2005
and the best DS ever
MSG Matthew Ritz
Died 11.23.2005
matthewritz.com

For those who have had to fight for it, Life holds a special meaning that the protected will never know.

(\__/)
(='.'=) Someone set us up the bunny!
(")_(")
Blackwater OPS is offline  
Old April 20, 2006, 10:38 PM   #14
Norstrog
Member
 
Join Date: March 13, 2006
Location: Virginia
Posts: 59
liliysdad --- As a cop, I advise you to say nothing until you have an attorney present.


I don't know how to do the quote thing but I have to agree with Liliysdad. Every police officer that I've ever talked to has said the exact same thing. I pray that I never see the day but my approach would be cooperate but don't say a thing without a lawyer.
Norstrog is offline  
Old April 21, 2006, 09:09 AM   #15
PSE
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 23, 2004
Location: stupids womb, SC
Posts: 475
how many police are willing to make a after shooting statment before they speak w/ the PBA rep?

right.
PSE is offline  
Old April 21, 2006, 06:14 PM   #16
oldbillthundercheif
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2006
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 2,450
Sometimes it does not matter what you say to the police (if anything). Some (not all) LEO's tend to form oppinions regarding guilt of innocence from their "gut reaction" to an incident. You never know if you are talking with an officer who has already made up his mind that you are the one who needs to go to jail. Once this mindset has been established no amount of reason or finely-worded statements will convince him to see things your way. Shut up, ask for a lawyer, and pray that his squad car has a "dash-cam" and audio recorder. Otherwise you may read in his report something like:
"The suspect confessed to beating the victim while I transported him to lockup. He then gave me consent to search his vehicle, house, and workplace. He said he fought the victim because something he said made him angry"

I wish things like this did not happen... but they do.
oldbillthundercheif is offline  
Old April 24, 2006, 09:35 AM   #17
NJDAG
Junior Member
 
Join Date: April 17, 2006
Posts: 6
Quote:
how many police are willing to make a after shooting statment before they speak w/ the PBA rep?

right.
I agree. One of the first things we were taught about LEO involved shootings is "Consult your PBA rep before making a statement."
NJDAG is offline  
Old April 24, 2006, 10:24 AM   #18
cgraham
Member
 
Join Date: September 18, 2005
Posts: 47
How to Get an Attorney?

Ok, so you live in a small town and the yellow pages are not going to be much use. How do you obtain a suitable attorney?

How many of us have not made prior arrangements with an attorney specifically for CCW, or do not have a family attorney?

C
cgraham is offline  
Old April 24, 2006, 12:38 PM   #19
pickpocket
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2006
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 570
Quote:
The police can and will use everything you say against you in a court of law.
It's not the police who would prosecute you. And the tone of thatexercise is going to depend largely on your county/state political climate and the personal views of - or political pressures being brought to bear upon - the DA and staff.

What an LEO thinks of the 2nd Amendment is a non-issue...what you SAY to them during their investigation, however, is not.
Another thing to consider is - this is something I don't know - whether or not evidence admitted into a criminal trial would be admissable in a civil trial. Just another thought.
__________________
Semper Fi-
David Williams

"Sabah al khair -- ismee Dave, ahnee al Shayṭān"
pickpocket is offline  
Old April 24, 2006, 02:59 PM   #20
ISP2605
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Posts: 954
Who is usually the guy breaking in and getting shot? It sure isn't the local parish priest or the kindergarten teacher. These kinds are those who have most likely had numerous run ins with the police long before the homeowner had to put a rd into him. The police probably not only know the guy by name but can run off his entire rap sheet. Same with the prosecutors. You won't see any of them shedding a tear for the long lost soul of the recently departed crumb. The homeowner just made their life easier.
But if you're involved in a bad shoot where you should have taken that extra 1/2 second to think instead of opening fire, then, yup, you better be talking to an attorney real fast.
ISP2605 is offline  
Old April 24, 2006, 03:51 PM   #21
Neophyte
Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2005
Location: NC
Posts: 26
ISP2605 -

You're forgetting that there's two possible trials that'll occur after your self-defense shooting - criminal and civil. And while the shooting may be 100% cut-and-dried (eg. your attacker was named Jason Voorhees, was smeared with fresh co-ed blood, and was shot in the process of chainsawing through the front door of your home at Crystal Lake), the civil trial is another thing again.

A good lawyer will make sure that you don't make statements in the heat of the moment, give conflicting stories due to post-adreneline rush confusion, or any of a number of potentially costly mistakes you might make that - even if they don't result in a criminal trial - will cost you heavily in a civil suit. And don't forget that the rules of evidence are much slacker in civil courts, so the most innocent-looking stuff that'd never see the light of day in the DA's case may still pop up to bite your civil defendant butt.

After all, when crippled ol' Widder Voorhees is on the stand lamenting how "Jay-Jay" always paid her medical bills, was kind to animals, and never slaughtered on Sundays...you'll want every advantage you can get.
Neophyte is offline  
Old April 24, 2006, 03:59 PM   #22
Dave R
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2000
Location: Idaho
Posts: 6,073
My only concern with not talking to cops is that I have had 2 cops tell me they assume guilt when the the subject of an investigation "lawyers up." They assume innocence when the subject speaks freely. Is that said to ensure cooperation? Or is it sincere?
__________________
I am Pro-Rights (on gun issues).
Dave R is offline  
Old April 24, 2006, 04:03 PM   #23
Blackwater OPS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,153
Quote:
My only concern with not talking to cops is that I have had 2 cops tell me they assume guilt when the the subject of an investigation "lawyers up." They assume innocence when the subject speaks freely. Is that said to ensure cooperation? Or is it sincere?
That is total BS. In any case, I usually know a person is going to get off when they refuse to incriminate themselves and lawyer up. It is a rare case that is won by evidence alone and not a confession or guilty plea. Most of the time if a person demands a trial I tend to think they are not guilty, if anything.

Edited to add:
Of course there is an exception for people stupid or unlucky enough to get caught it the act.
__________________
"Those who would give up essential Liberty,
to purchase a little temporary Safety,
deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
-Ben Franklin

Spc. Jeremy M. Campbell
Died 9/1/2005
and the best DS ever
MSG Matthew Ritz
Died 11.23.2005
matthewritz.com

For those who have had to fight for it, Life holds a special meaning that the protected will never know.

(\__/)
(='.'=) Someone set us up the bunny!
(")_(")

Last edited by Blackwater OPS; April 24, 2006 at 04:42 PM.
Blackwater OPS is offline  
Old April 24, 2006, 04:08 PM   #24
ISP2605
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Posts: 954
"ISP2605 -
You're forgetting that there's two possible trials that'll occur after your self-defense shooting - criminal and civil."

No, I'm not forgetting about it. I'm very well aware of it. BTDT. Been involved in those cases as the defendant (twice), witness (both to the shooting and as an expert witness), and investigator in numerous shooting cases, both LEO and civilian. So yeah, I have been around that mulberry bush many times. Did shooting cases for a lot of years and was in federal court twice on 1983 action.
So yeah, I know what goes on in those proceedings. Those are not something I imagined, read about, or heard others talk about. Saw them first hand.
ISP2605 is offline  
Old April 24, 2006, 04:22 PM   #25
Capt Charlie
Staff
 
Join Date: March 24, 2005
Location: Steubenville, OH
Posts: 4,314
Quote:
My only concern with not talking to cops is that I have had 2 cops tell me they assume guilt when the the subject of an investigation "lawyers up." They assume innocence when the subject speaks freely.
Possibly only a semantics problem here, but the term "assume" falls in the same category as "routine". Both are a form of profanity in law enforcement.

What I assume doesn't mean squat in what action I take. Solid probable cause does. If there's a discrepancy in statements, most likely you'll be detained for further investigation, but an arrest won't be made without probable cause.

Quote:
Another thing to consider is - this is something I don't know - whether or not evidence admitted into a criminal trial would be admissible in a civil trial. Just another thought.
Civil court is much more forgiving than a criminal court. Anything admissible in criminal court will be admissible in civil court, but a lot of things presented during a civil trial would not be admissible in criminal court. That was, I believe, O.J. Simpson's big problem.
__________________
TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does your post make you?

I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do.

--Capt. Charlie
Capt Charlie is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12765 seconds with 7 queries