Self Defense Load Comparison

CritRxDoc · April 15, 2006, 03:17 PM

I am interested in finding comparison data (velocity, penetration, expansion, etc) for some of the hot personal defense loads from federal, winchester, cor-bon, speer, double-tap, etc. I am especially interested in the 9mm data, but also the .357mag, sig, and 10mm. The Firearms Statistics site has the FBI tests, but they are all old. Any thoughts?

atlctyslkr · April 15, 2006, 03:26 PM

I didn't find alot of info on expansion but I wondered myself what you are seeking now. I just downloaded all of the catalogs from the major manufactuers and tried to compare velocity and energy for similar rounds. One thing that is important to note is the length of the barrel of the test gun. I would not expect the same results from a hunting revolver and a J-Frame.

I would ask a LE what they reccomend. If an LE is carrying a round in an off duty/backup gun then it should be good enough for the average civilian.

This is not a reccomendation but I hear more about Speer Gold Dots than anything else. Maybe they have a better marketing plan, who knows? I've tried just about every round target shooting and plinking at stuff in the woods.

cje1980 · April 15, 2006, 03:33 PM

You aren't going to find a lot of performance data from the exotic manufacturers like Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, Corbon. I think Mike at Double Tap has tested his ammo and provides this information if asked but I'm not sure. I'm also not sure if he follows the same protocols as the FBI. You can try www.stoppingpower.net and go to the Test Bed forum. Try doing a search and you will find quite a variety of ammo tested. Word of advice, use loads that have been tested and proven on the streets by LE.

ClarkEMyers · April 15, 2006, 03:42 PM

Penetration in what and with what in front of it?

Stephen A. Camp and some others have been kind enough to run tests and post useful information on the boards. Camp is the best I know of currently testing across brands and he's only one man paying his own costs. See e.g. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=206825 on this board or search for posts by Mr. Camp (under his full name not as Mr.) and look for his books too.

Bob Hagel used to do a great job with big game bullets.

I can only guess folks who are motivated to do comparison data aren't motivated to make enemies by posting their results and particularly by inviting flames. Maybe somebody will link to the perfect comparison I've missed all these years.

WESHOOT2 · April 16, 2006, 09:42 AM

I "think" that any modern bullet design that's been available for more than fifteen minutes, loaded by a professional manufacturer, and tested in YOUR gun for utter reliability, is perfect.

No comparison needed.

Tests that compare bullets fired into mediums are great for comparing bullets fired into medium, but since we can't pick our real-life medium, we can only assume (uh-oh, there's that word) how they'll work on our target when needed.

I know some suggest that mediums reflect actual performance based on autopsy reports, and I can generally agree with that, but in my ever-so-unhumble opinion we worry too much about "best" when, frankly (with modern bullets), "good enough" really is, and our worries should be focused on: avoidance, reliability, shot placement.

I focus first on avoidance.

Scientific comparisons about ammo aren't.
My 'always' is a 22LR.
I have other guns.

kjdoski · April 16, 2006, 10:43 AM

Go over to www.stoppingpower.net and check out the "Test Bed" in the forums. They've tested LOTS of ammo in bare gelatin, clothed gelatin, and gelatin fronted by a variety of tactical barriers...

Regards,

Kevin

WESHOOT2 · April 16, 2006, 11:32 AM

Don't I sound all knowledgeable (and smarmy?)?

Socrates · April 16, 2006, 12:28 PM

The one thing these tests do show is some bullets, combinations, are better then others. While not a big fan of
some of Evan Marshall's writings, the tests he does, and the posting, is invaluable.

S

cje1980 · April 16, 2006, 01:35 PM

I know Corbons generally expand very well because they use bullets that are well known for expansion. Use the proper bullet weight for the caliber and you will be fine. Double Tap uses premium bullets like the Speer GD and Rem GS, so they should perform very well.

tulsamal · April 16, 2006, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Double Tap uses premium bullets like the Speer GD and Rem GS, so they should perform very well.

I think that's the big thing. Bullet construction took a major upward turn in the last 10-15 years. Check out velocities but I look at what kind of bullet it is first. Gold Dot, Rem GS, and a couple others are great. I'm likely to use the other bullets for practice or hunting but not SD.

Somebody said to look at what the LEO's are carrying. That's good advice in general. The majors are going to be using stuff with the good modern bullets. A lot of them are using the Winchester Ranger +P stuff. And HydraShok's. And Gold Dots. And Golden Sabers. Find someone who loads the bullet you want to the velocity you prefer and you are set.

Gregg

MTS840 · April 21, 2006, 10:59 AM

CritRxDoc:

This site should answer your questions:

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bi...ubb=forum;f=78

DocGKR studied under Dr. Fackler and he continuously evaluates self defense ammunition.

April 15, 2006, 03:17 PM	#1
CritRxDoc Senior Member Join Date: September 14, 2005 Location: Chesapeake, Virginia Posts: 111	Self Defense Load Comparison I am interested in finding comparison data (velocity, penetration, expansion, etc) for some of the hot personal defense loads from federal, winchester, cor-bon, speer, double-tap, etc. I am especially interested in the 9mm data, but also the .357mag, sig, and 10mm. The Firearms Statistics site has the FBI tests, but they are all old. Any thoughts? __________________ G-17; G-20; G-23; GP-100

April 15, 2006, 03:42 PM	#4
ClarkEMyers Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2004 Location: PacWest Posts: 455	Run them yourself and post them - Penetration in what and with what in front of it? Stephen A. Camp and some others have been kind enough to run tests and post useful information on the boards. Camp is the best I know of currently testing across brands and he's only one man paying his own costs. See e.g. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=206825 on this board or search for posts by Mr. Camp (under his full name not as Mr.) and look for his books too. Bob Hagel used to do a great job with big game bullets. I can only guess folks who are motivated to do comparison data aren't motivated to make enemies by posting their results and particularly by inviting flames. Maybe somebody will link to the perfect comparison I've missed all these years.

April 16, 2006, 09:42 AM	#5
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 12,918	my thoughts (been thinking for a while) I "think" that any modern bullet design that's been available for more than fifteen minutes, loaded by a professional manufacturer, and *tested in YOUR gun for utter reliability, is perfect. No comparison needed. Tests that compare bullets fired into mediums are great for comparing bullets fired into medium, but since we can't pick our real-life medium, we can only assume (uh-oh, there's that word) how they'll work on our* target when needed. I know some suggest that mediums reflect actual performance based on autopsy reports, and I can generally agree with that, but in my ever-so-unhumble opinion we worry too much about "best" when, frankly (with modern bullets), "good enough" really is, and our worries should be focused on: avoidance, reliability, shot placement. I focus first on avoidance. Scientific comparisons about ammo aren't. My 'always' is a 22LR. I have other guns. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo" Last edited by WESHOOT2; April 16, 2006 at 09:44 AM. Reason: read my post; buncha "blah blah blah", ay?

April 16, 2006, 11:32 AM	#7
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 12,918	just reread my post Don't I sound all knowledgeable (and smarmy?)? __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

April 15, 2006, 03:26 PM	#2
atlctyslkr Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2006 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 613	I didn't find alot of info on expansion but I wondered myself what you are seeking now. I just downloaded all of the catalogs from the major manufactuers and tried to compare velocity and energy for similar rounds. One thing that is important to note is the length of the barrel of the test gun. I would not expect the same results from a hunting revolver and a J-Frame. I would ask a LE what they reccomend. If an LE is carrying a round in an off duty/backup gun then it should be good enough for the average civilian. This is not a reccomendation but I hear more about Speer Gold Dots than anything else. Maybe they have a better marketing plan, who knows? I've tried just about every round target shooting and plinking at stuff in the woods.

April 15, 2006, 03:33 PM	#3
cje1980 Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,384	You aren't going to find a lot of performance data from the exotic manufacturers like Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, Corbon. I think Mike at Double Tap has tested his ammo and provides this information if asked but I'm not sure. I'm also not sure if he follows the same protocols as the FBI. You can try www.stoppingpower.net and go to the Test Bed forum. Try doing a search and you will find quite a variety of ammo tested. Word of advice, use loads that have been tested and proven on the streets by LE.

April 16, 2006, 10:43 AM	#6
kjdoski Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Near Tampa, FL Posts: 113	Go over to www.stoppingpower.net and check out the "Test Bed" in the forums. They've tested LOTS of ammo in bare gelatin, clothed gelatin, and gelatin fronted by a variety of tactical barriers... Regards, Kevin

April 16, 2006, 12:28 PM	#8
Socrates Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: East Bay NorCal, People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 5,866	The one thing these tests do show is some bullets, combinations, are better then others. While not a big fan of some of Evan Marshall's writings, the tests he does, and the posting, is invaluable. S

April 16, 2006, 01:35 PM	#9
cje1980 Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,384	I know Corbons generally expand very well because they use bullets that are well known for expansion. Use the proper bullet weight for the caliber and you will be fine. Double Tap uses premium bullets like the Speer GD and Rem GS, so they should perform very well.

April 21, 2006, 10:59 AM	#11
MTS840 Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 2004 Location: Winston-Salem, North Carolina Posts: 417	CritRxDoc: This site should answer your questions: http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bi...ubb=forum;f=78 DocGKR studied under Dr. Fackler and he continuously evaluates self defense ammunition.