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Old April 12, 2006, 10:45 PM   #26
pickpocket
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threegun
Pickpocket, I had no problem the way you said it believe me. I just understand how some people think, especially antigunners. They might interpret it as a psycho with a gun waiting to kill.
Point well taken, and duly noted.
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Old April 14, 2006, 04:54 AM   #27
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Skyguy,

Quote:
There's situational awareness and then there's paranoia
Paranoia is a mental disorder characterized by delusions of persecution. Pickpocket is just trying to tell you to be ready to defend yourself against anyone and everyone as even someone that looks okay can be trouble. He explained to all of us that his mindset came from the military (free of political correctness and sugar coatings). You are stuck on the harshness of the words instead of understanding the point. Here is PP's point as I gather it. Trouble can come from anyone at anytime be ready to protect yourself........DON'T BE CAUGHT OFF GUARD. Very simple to translate.

Sugar coating provided by threegun at no extra charge LOL.
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Old April 14, 2006, 05:08 PM   #28
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Quote:
Very simple to translate.
Spin it any way you like, guy....still seems like very bad advice, especially for some that visit here who might actually take it to heart.

Even "dialed back a tiny bit", I don't think it's healthy to "THINK like everyone you meet wants to kill you".

Nor is it healthy to "Have a plan to kill everyone you meet".
.
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Old April 14, 2006, 05:39 PM   #29
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Get over it, man. If you didn't understand it, then the post wasn't for you to begin with.
Maybe I should consider changing my signature as well - lest I be responsible for someone repeating it out loud.

If you take it to heart and take it literally, then you were bound to run into that sooner or later and I doubt that my post was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Either way - Let's move on. The post has been edited and the ignorant and irresponsible have been duly protected from themselves.
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Old April 14, 2006, 08:38 PM   #30
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This one needs to get back on topic folks .
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Old April 18, 2006, 03:05 PM   #31
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Capt. Mike, there is nothing immoral, illegal, or unethical about going with your feelings about someone, particularly when being wrong could mean your life.

You were absolutely right in deciding to err on the side of safety. In the worst case, you might have just given offense (if they even were aware that you left because of them) -- and in that case, tough crap, because hey, if you don't want to be judged as though you are a potential danger to me, don't act and present yourself as mimicking exactly that kind of person. In the best case, you might have removed yourself and your son from a robbery scene in which bullets may have flown.

We can't afford to dance this b.s. dance about how "it's wrong to judge people based on their appearance." That's utter crap. There is no utility to treating everyone as though they are all undressed plastic mannequins going about their day, no different-looking, different-appearing, different-acting from anyone else. There ARE differences, and an adept, astute observer can often tell the difference between someone who poses an elevated threat level from someone who does not. Will I act less defensively around a 48-year-old guy in a business suit who is holding his 5-year-old daughter's hand at a restaurant than I would around three black guys in baggy clothes, with gold teeth, one ankle of their sweats high and one low, lolling around on all the seats, not staying in one place or appearing to have any business there, and talking loudly and brashly with each other, possibly making rude comments about other patrons? You bet your @$$. Who is going to say I am wrong for doing it? I should just pretend that the appearances and behaviors are equal to neutral? No. They have a justified influence on how I interpret the level of threat.

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Old April 18, 2006, 05:36 PM   #32
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Quote:
Will I act less defensively around a 48-year-old guy in a business suit who is holding his 5-year-old daughter's hand at a restaurant than I would around three black guys in baggy clothes, with gold teeth, one ankle of their sweats high and one low, lolling around on all the seats, not staying in one place or appearing to have any business there, and talking loudly and brashly with each other, possibly making rude comments about other patrons? You bet your @$$.
I agree 100% but those three black guys could be three white guys! I've seen white gang bangers who were just as nasty and dangerous as any blacks or Hispanics. I'm guilty of racial profiling just as many others are. It's human nature especially when you read about 9 out of 10 shooting being done by blacks. There was four murders in Buffalo, NY last week, one restaurant owner shot in cold blood after a robbery, one store clerk shot for no apparent reason after a robbery, one college student killed in cold blood and finally a Nun raped and murdered, all by black men.

The Saudis and other Middle Eastern counties were complaining about profiling after 9/11 but the hijackers were all from the Middle East so how can we as a country not suspect anyone from that part of the world especially in that age group. That's racial profiling at it's finest and it's done at every airport in the country.

These gang bangers wanna walk the walk and talk the talk, then they better be ready to accept the consequences.
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Old April 18, 2006, 10:10 PM   #33
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Many people think of gangs as racially based. Actually, some of the most dangerous are area or "hood" based.
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Old April 19, 2006, 12:22 AM   #34
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I run everyone.

The other day I went to a church at about noon for a person who locked herself out of her vehicle.

I showed up and met a white female, mid 20's, clean, dressed very conservative (blouse and dress down to her shoes). I talked to her for a few minutes, and she told me that she was a 2nd grade school teacher, and on sundays she teaches sunday school. Very articulate and well spoken person. I ran her and she had warrants for assault, burglary, possession of a c/s and distribution of a c/s.

Relying solely on race to find bgs is a horrible way of doing policing.
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Old April 19, 2006, 01:04 AM   #35
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I don't think we're trying to say what's "good" policing and what's not.
That said, there are certainly going to be exceptions to the rule - your young lady was arguably one of those exceptions.

I made a point earlier in the thread that certain people work at projecting a certain "vibe" - and we would be idiots to ignore those signals. To me, that's what this whole thread is really about.
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Old April 20, 2006, 11:46 PM   #36
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Very interesting topic. I find it more interesting to observe people's opinions from an international outsiders point of view. Fortunately in Australia, we do not live in constant fear of being shot by any group or minority. Yes we have shootings, but nothing that provokes our police to do vehicle road stops at gun point. The removal of a firearm from a holster over here is a lot of paper work and requires an explanation for your actions. Police have to have justification to draw their firearm... armed security officers like myself have to be pretty much shot before we are justified in drawing our firearms. Sad fact.
I profile people everyday in my job. My city is small enough that you get to know the regulars and their movements. Most people in Australia are intimdated by the open carriage of firearms by security officers. Its not a very common sight to most people and your actions have to be performed very carefully. In Australia, if I was to be seen by a person with my hand resting on my firearm, and that person did not feel comfortable with what they saw... I could be charged with assault and a breach of our Weapons Act. The reason - we are not to go armed in a public place and cause fear. It sounds strange I know because that action was not intentional to cause fear, but the concept that someone didn't like it caused a response.

When I look at people to profile them, I look for things that might be a threat to me. Example - something concealed within their hands, or hands in their pockets or watching them watching my movements. I maintain that I establish eye contact with every person in the room. It might be only a split second. Its all to do with letting people know that I've seen them.
I don't become complacent with performing my job. The threat is always there, but I can't live everyday thinking that if someone looks at me differently, that person is going to attack me. I get heaps of people that look at me differently and draw my attention to them. I assess the situation by observing their movements and eliminate the possibilities of a threat occuring.
Its ok to be unsure of something. The best advice if you are encountered by a this:
Create distance.
Know your escape route.
Remember the offender.
Find your options.
Protect yourself.

You can never fire and forget.

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Old April 21, 2006, 01:53 AM   #37
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But what do you know is a rule? I don't know many dangerous criminals, do you? How are you supposed to see what the "typical" felon looks like? Unless you're an experienced LEO, or otherwise see a lot of these criminals on a regular basis, your gut feeling is just what makes you uncomfortable-usually just what you don't know.
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Old April 21, 2006, 07:41 AM   #38
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SrtDog - +1 . In God we trust ,all others get NCIC. Regards 18DAI.
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Old April 21, 2006, 03:55 PM   #39
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Just like defensive driving, think about what the other person/persons will do.
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Old April 21, 2006, 07:43 PM   #40
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So, like, I'm sitting in a restraunt and there's a bunch of loud, obnoxious gangsta-types over there, and there's a bunch of loud, obnoxious preppie-types over there. Guess which ones I'm going to watch more closely? Either group may be capable of doing something stupid, dangerous, and/or violent, but I know how to bet.

Discrimination - from the Latin discrimino, "to know the difference". Discrimination based on prejudice, i.e. lack of specific knowledge, or superficial generalities, is morally & ethically wrong. However, discrimiantion based on knowledge and experience is sound practice, and may, in fact, be part of a moral duty to protect yourself and your loved ones.

Defensive driving - good analogy - assume they're all idiots -- that way you'll never be disappointed, but occasionally pleasantly suprised.
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Old April 21, 2006, 10:24 PM   #41
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Quote:
Defensive driving - good analogy
+ 1 for DWARREN123
I like that BUT Defensive driving isn't illegal. Not that it would stop me from doing that or racial profiling. So like Mike in VA said, "Guess which ones I'm going to watch more closely?" Boy if that ain't a no-brainier. Does that make me a bad person?
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Old April 22, 2006, 09:09 AM   #42
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Profiling is not a race thing, it is a collection of obsevations based on the appearance and actions of a person or group. Then based on those obsevations, deciding if the person or group seems to present a problem/threat. The media seems to have tied race to profiling, and that just is not true. There is behavior profiling, and racism; they aren't the same.

Things like:
Are they loud/rowdy
Is their clothing in good repair
Are they well groomed
Body posture/language
Are they courteous to others nearby
Does the person make eye contact
Does something just not fit


Anybody wearing gang colors and acting "ghetto" -->(stupid) is going to get a hard look, and perhaps more; no matter what color their skin is.


It is a first impression broadcast to the whole world based only on you showing up. Does yours say what you would like it to?
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Old April 22, 2006, 01:50 PM   #43
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Quote:
Profiling is not a race thing, it is a collection of observations based on the appearance and actions of a person or group.
You are correct but who are we kidding? More likely then not it does TURN INTO a race thing. Anyone who says differently just isn't being honest with themselves.
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Old April 22, 2006, 02:05 PM   #44
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Of course race is sometimes used. It is should never be the only thing, and very rarely the primary one.
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Old April 22, 2006, 02:27 PM   #45
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To hell with political correctness. You process whatever information is available to you to evaluate a threat. If the Islamowhacks are causing problems, I'm not gonna jack up little old white ladies and frisk them. Same goes for any other group that is known for TROUBLE.

You can bet your life, quite literally, that the threat will use every advantage at their disposal. They are profiling YOU, looking for an easy victim. You had better use every means at your disposal to make sure that they don't succeed.

This about survival, not some feel-good sociological fertilizer. The stakes are the same as they were in 600 BC, regardless of what is PC at this particular moment in history. Predators live by the law of the jungle. You do not ingore the tiger's stripes while walking that jungle, unless you want to become tiger scat.
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Old April 22, 2006, 06:09 PM   #46
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I understand everyone here's concerns about tough-looking dudes, but I think I can add a few things to this discussion. After leaving the Navy, I spent a few years working in the music business (it's a long story...). Mostly with rap artists. I can tell you for sure that most of the guys you see on the street looking intimidating only look and dress that way because it's part of their culture to wear this "uniform". Most of them don't sell drugs or rob and kill, like you would think from the way they carry themselves. The next time you are grilling in the yard and a bunch of them walk past, instead of giving them nasty looks, ask them if they want a burger or something. Most of them are good folks who respond to kindness the same way anybody else would. I'm not saying you shouldnt be pepared for any situation at any time from any angle, but rather that it's good to make friends with these people. Especially if you share a neighborhood with them.
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Old April 26, 2006, 06:55 PM   #47
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Well, I guess nobody thinks of these things as I do, eh? I expected at least one person to agree that it's a good idea to make friends with your neighbors. I guess everyone here would rather cower in fear or shoot nasty looks at people who, for all you know, may be just like you. Y'all better stay in the backwoods and suburbs because these attitudes are incompatable with modern urban society. It's easier to hate your neighbor when he lives miles away, rather than across the hall.
Go ahead and look at the random dude on the street like you think he's some sort of animal... Guess who's house he's going to visit next if he is a criminal? Yours! Would you rather make friends or become a target? The choice is yours.
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Old April 26, 2006, 07:37 PM   #48
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I agree. I think nobody has anything to say, because everyone's waiting for a response? I live in a college town, half of us look like what they're scared of. If I'm walking down a street here late friday night, at 3 AM and see a group of 6 black/mexican/whatever guys walking down the street dressed in chains, drunk, racuously laughing, shouting at passing cars and waving around a bottle of rum, I'm probably be happy, since I've got a better chance to get a free drink then worried about getting in trouble. Heck, at 3am on a weekend night, I'll probably be drunk too. I practically see no need for my gun here, but I have it for fun. My neighbor across the hall's spent time in jail. I don't know what for, fighting at least. He's not allowed to own a gun. He sells marijiuana. One of the nicest guys I know. He's working to get his degree, working with special ed kids. I go there to borrow stuff all the time, we go partying and picking up girls on weekends. I was squeaky clean before I came here. Live in a well-off suburbs of a major city, right up against the coast, overlooking the ocean. Every house cost over $500,000, and crime's almost nonexistant. Christian parents. I would've reacted the same way as most of the people, and maybe still would over there. But living here's changed my mind a bit about appearances.
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Old April 26, 2006, 10:36 PM   #49
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oldbillthundercheif & razorburn,
I can respond and do so truthfully. I don't avoid minorities or gang banger looking dudes. I speak to all sorts of people but I DO know which people to avoid. I just happen to own a very nice Ford Powerstroke Diesel 4x4 with all kinds of modifications on it and it's sort of a show truck and I get all kinds of comments on it especially from the younger crowd including some pretty seedy characters. But I talk to all of them and indulge in some pretty good conversations but like I said I know which ones to avoid, you know maybe the ones who might be interested in stealing the truck not just looking at it, after all I've got over $50000 invested in it. I encourage the guys to check out the club for Ford diesels (Western New York Powerstroke Association) I started about 3 years ago www.wnypa.org and tell them to come to one of our events. Who knows maybe someday they'll own a Ford Powerstroke. It's not much but it's my little contribution to help and get to know my "neighbors".
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Old April 27, 2006, 04:00 PM   #50
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Hey, old bill.

Just curious.

Is it supposed to be thunder 'chief' or thunder 'chef'.....or is it really thunder 'cheif'?
.
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