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Old April 7, 2006, 07:47 PM   #1
TrooperSon
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Stance: Weaver vs. isosceles

I've always used the weaver style stance. Thinking about switching over to isosceles. Based on what I've read and observed, seems to make sense that accuracy will go up as fewer muscles are under strain. Anyone have any thoughts or advice here?
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Old April 8, 2006, 03:22 AM   #2
chrisandclauida2
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it depends on how you shoot. if you shoot with one eye closed the weaver is best. if you shoot with both eyes open then switch. with the weapon centered off of your nose with both eyes open you will shoot much better. you have to get used to the sight picture and reconciling the target within it. i switched to both eyes open and the iso stance. i found much quicker sight alignment/front sight on target. i find that the weapon naturally is pointed at what your looking at where with the weaver it is off a bit requiring stricter discipline with sight picture.

if your dominate eye is on the same side as your dominate hand and you shoot weaver the sight and target alignment will be fairly close. the iso stance is much faster also.

there is a reason that most competition use the iso or a slightly modified iso stance
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Old April 8, 2006, 03:28 AM   #3
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Weaver has it's benefits....

esp from an leo perspective (bladed position which should be your FI stance anyway). However I shoot best with a natural point shooting stance that is basically a loose, limber isosceles stance (shoulders squared, gun at center line raised to eye level, head up).
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Old April 8, 2006, 03:31 AM   #4
mete
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Learn both then pick the one you do better with. It also depends on the situation ,one might work better than another in a particular situation.
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Old April 8, 2006, 10:37 AM   #5
Ozzieman
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weaver style

If you practice what you shoot you will shoot what you practice.
I have used the weaver stance for 30 years and it works for me, that dosent say there isn't anything better but having practiced that way for this many years i ant about the change now, would just confuse this little space in my head taken up by my brain.
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Old April 8, 2006, 02:50 PM   #6
threefivesevenmag
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Universal Stance.

Eric,

Could you explain the universal stance more or is there a website with photo visuals? It sounds interesting and I'd like to learn more.

Thanks much.
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Old April 8, 2006, 05:29 PM   #7
JDG
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Try closing your eyes, and point your gun at a target, now open your eyes and see where your aiming. I found the iso stance, gave me a better, natural point and shoot stance. This would be better for low light shooting, so why not use it all the time.
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Old April 8, 2006, 06:05 PM   #8
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To add more confusion: I'm cross-dominant and use the Quell stance. I sorta developed it on my own so I'm not sure if I'm doing it exactly the same way he did but it works for me.
I hunted high & low but couldn't find a picture.
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Old April 12, 2006, 10:28 AM   #9
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Stance: Iscoceles period end of story!

The "BEST" stance is a modified Iscoceles.
Reasons:
#1 If you are in law enforcement, better to get shot in the vest straight on then shot in the arm shooting weaver and have the rd go through arm and into chest cavity where vest doesn't protect.

#2 Check out the best shooters in the country no weaver stances with them.

#3 Why add stress and strain to your shooting positon, pushing and pulling with your hands and arms what idiot though of this OH the LEO who want to get famous.

#4 When shooting weaver you have a tendancy to wobble left to right and when shooting Isco you have a tendency to wobble up and down. Humans and targets are usually taller then they are wider.

Modified would be with elbow slightly bent, square to the target, remember the only thing here that moves is the shooters trigger finger. I know alot of people will disagreed with me so here are some of my accolades:

3 Time Police Pistol Comabt State Champion
Won 3 gold Medals at Police Oylmpics
Shot perfect score in Police Olympics with a Service Auto
Police Sniper, Sub gun Instructor, Dept., County, State and Police Academy certified Firearms Instructor, I could write all day about myself but this is just a few so you know that I'm not BS-ing you.
Bob
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Old April 12, 2006, 10:33 AM   #10
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PPC Master,

Could you explain the modified?

Thanks
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Old April 12, 2006, 10:39 AM   #11
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Modified:

This is what has been taught by Doug Koening and where I picked it about 10years ago.

Stand square to the target, toes pointing toward target and feet about 2-3 feet apart depending on your size. Extend arms out with a slight bent at the elbow, I find it helps with recoil better. Gun comes up to your eye. Also remember that when gripping the gun with two hands you want the pressure to be 30% with your shooting hand and 70% with your support hand. At no time do your hands tighten on the gun while squeezing or pulling the trigger. Your hands are just a platform from which you hold the gun. Your trigger finger is the only thing that moves when you are firing a shot.
Bob
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Old April 12, 2006, 10:42 AM   #12
Striker1
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PPC,

So the only difference is a slight bend iin the elbows? How about the knees? Any forward lean in the shoulders?
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Old April 12, 2006, 10:55 AM   #13
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Hey Striker,
As far as the knees go that would depend on how you were shooting i.e. with a barricade or free style. Basically what I do is no matter position I am shooting from I am in the most comfortable, sometimes with my knee locked but for the most part they are just unlocked. Leaning forward a little only seems to make a benefit to me when shooting large caliber firearms that produce a large amount of recoil and another time when I lean in the shooting stance is when I shoot fast i.e. steel or I am behind on a string fire and trying to catch up.
Bob
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Old April 12, 2006, 10:57 AM   #14
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thanks,

OT, what's going on up your way during police week? Any shooting?
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Old April 12, 2006, 10:59 AM   #15
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Nothing as usual first match on April 29th
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Old April 12, 2006, 12:56 PM   #16
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does anyone have a pic or illustration of what the 2 stands look like sorry i am a noob, and i am a little lost.
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Old April 12, 2006, 02:01 PM   #17
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I'm with Erick - over the years I've switched from "Weaver" and "Iso" to kind of a modified stance that's a bit more natural for certain types of shooting. If you're target shooting, then sure - go with one of the old tried-and-trues.
If you're practicing for offensive or defensive shooting, then you need to change things up.
Thinking that you're going to have time to line up a perfect Iso stance or a perfect Weaver stance during a high-stress moment may be asking a bit much of yourself, not to mention sacrificing a bit more than you want.

Just like we teach QK-style techniques with a carbine: legs slightly bent, toes in the direction of movement, weak leg a little forward, torso slightly forward from the waist, elbows in, weapon at the "ready", looking just barely over your sights.

Weaver vs. Iso pics:
http://www.midwesttraininggroup.net/...ke_a_stand.htm
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Last edited by pickpocket; April 12, 2006 at 08:55 PM.
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Old April 12, 2006, 02:40 PM   #18
Redneckrepairs
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well for me

A modified Weaver , basicly straight on from the interview stance , that being said i am not wedded to the stance at all and have shot from some real contorted position , a stance is a starting point not a commandment imho
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Old April 12, 2006, 03:26 PM   #19
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U gotta take a Stand

I was taught the I triangle. My brother-in-law who works for the NJ DOJ was taught the modified weaver. The weaver looks law enforcement cool. The advantage of the I triangle over the weaver is assuming you are wearing a bullet proof vest - which I am not since I am a civilian. But I was taught the I triangle.
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Old April 12, 2006, 05:24 PM   #20
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i prefer the stance ( cant remember what its called i lost my book ) from
page 38 of the karma sutra
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Old April 12, 2006, 08:23 PM   #21
TrooperSon
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Thanks

Thanks everyone for some great comments. Especially PPCMaster who has really shared a lot of useful info here.

TrooperSon
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Old April 13, 2006, 10:22 AM   #22
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Grab your carbine...

....and stand with it shouldered facing the target. Aim, and fire. Now, drop the carbine and draw your pistol. Do you really want to move your feet to get into what feels right?
We train to have the exact same foot position with carbine, shotgun, or pistol. There's no realistic way to hold your long arm in the isocoles stance.
The schools that I've been to that teach Iso stance maintain that the body armor faces the target. The ones that teach Weaver mantain that it delivers a slimmer profile to the target, reducing your chances of being hit. I like Weaver, as it gives me a multi-weapon platform for shooting. After a couple of transitions from carbine to pistol, Weaver made the most sense.
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Old April 13, 2006, 11:05 AM   #23
pickpocket
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Quote:
....and stand with it shouldered facing the target. Aim, and fire. Now, drop the carbine and draw your pistol. Do you really want to move your feet to get into what feels right?
If I read this right, you're saying that you can't realistically employ your carbine from this stance, right?

I very much disagree - assuming that you mean only the "true" iso stance. My above post indicated that I train people to fire both weapons from the same stance: shoulders square to the target, both feet pointed in the direction of movement and about a shoulder's width apart, weak foot forward.
You lean slightly forward at the waist, keep your elbows in, and bend your knees. If you're moving forward in this stance we've always called it either the "duck walk" or the "combat glide" - it provides the most stable shooting position throughout your movement because your lower body absorbs all of the 'bouncing' motion.
Transitions don't change your stance, either. Drop the carbine to the weak side, draw your pistol, and maintain. Shoulders are still square to the target and feet are still pointed forward.

I think the true Weaver stance gives you easy transition when you're not moving. So I suppose it just depends on what you're practicing for.
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Old April 13, 2006, 04:10 PM   #24
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However, in a life or death encounter you will be feeling combzt stress the instant you realize that your life is in danger. There is consuderable evudence ( from surviellance tapes) that uner this stress law officers trained in the Weaver stance instinctively revert to the Isosolese stance under fire. Many will say after the action that they used the Weaver stance and are astounded when shown that they did not.
Since it seems to be difficult and for many people impossibe to use the Weaver stance in actoal combat the logical thing tp do is to adopt the Isosoles stance and practice with it since you should practice doing what you are actually going to do.
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Old April 13, 2006, 04:40 PM   #25
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First of all, I am not a LEO or a certified trainer so the following are questions and opinions that I have developed in my 10+ years of shooting. I do not claim that any of the techniques I use are better than anyone elses. So with that said...

What any weakness in the Modified Weaver assuming you aren't wearing body armor? I'm not too sure about the strong hand over powering the weak hand part. Does this mean the shooting hand is pushing more than the support hand is pulling?

One other thing is I believe that muscle memory is going to play a major factor in a high stress situation. Basically, what you practice most will be what you revert to when the poop hits the fan. I even at the range, I practice a modified Weaver stance. I feel this is probably what I would revert to instinctively if I was in a bad situation. (There is always a possibility that I will be cowering in some corner soiling myself too but I hope that won't be the case! )

While the isocoles presents a target that is protected by body armor (assuming you are wearing any), you are still presenting a LARGER target. I have never been shot (thank God) but I have heard that even with body armor, it can be pretty painful. If the officer gets knocked to the ground, they will still present a large target for the bad guy to shoot at. I prefer the modified weaver as I present a smaller target and stand a lesser chance of getting hit at all. At the same time, my support arm is covering my chest and will reduce the energy of any round that strikes there. It may still be a fatal injury but I don't wear body armor anyways.

I also like the modified Weaver since it is a forward leaning stance. This helps to control recoil, as mentioned, and also sets you up to fall forward if you were to be hit. I assume this makes it easier for you to continue fighting. At least that is what the mall ninjas and internet warriors claim. Heck, it makes sense to me.
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