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Old March 12, 2015, 10:09 AM   #1
kraigwy
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Brandishing Problems

Brandishing in the form of being prepared for danger needs to be evaluated.

An example: You are filling your vehicle at a gas station. While at the pump, here comes Mr. Scruffy, a weird looking dude coming up to your pump and car. Looks like a possible car jacking maybe. OR, maybe Mr. Scruffy is an employee ( some do look weird) and is just coming up to record the numbers at the pump. Do you draw your pistol just in case?

Or you're at an ATM withdrawing money, some guy comes up behind you and waiting and watching...... is he waiting to get your money or is he waiting to use the ATM? Do you draw your piston just in case?

The problem is, if you draw you pistol and the guy at the pump is an employee, or the guy at the ATM is waiting to use the ATM is waiting his turn, then you are in fact brandishing, or worse committing assault.

You should be ready, yet you cant be waiving your gun around.

The answer is ability to draw from concealment instantly, less then 0.5 seconds. If you can't then you need to re-evaluate your training or method of carry or both.

I've said this before on this site. I teach in in my CC classes.

But here is another case that comes to mind that could have easily ended up much worse.

Disclaimer: I don't condone the actions of the police, nor do I want to discuss the actions of the police so lets please leave that out. My intent of posting this story is how the home owner could have accomplished the same thing without putting himself, family and officer in danger.

http://www.examiner.com/article/newc...-dog-complaint

This is a report of a family being waken up in the middle of the night with loud banging on his door in the middle of the night. Occurring in a town that normally pulls in its sidewalks at 9 PM.

The guy peeps out the door sees no one. Wife goes to the children while the man steps out on the porch with his pistol to investigate. Why is someone banging on his door in the middle of the night?

When he steps out on the porch he is immediately "ambushed" by the police who sees a guy with a gun who may be a danger to the officers.

It could have turned out a lot worse, the guy could have shot the officers whom he assumed were trying to get in his home or the officers could have shot the home owner thinking they were in danger.

But the Grace of God interfered and no one was hunt.

This brings me back to my point, if the home owner stepped out with the pistol concealed yet could been put to use instantly, he could have been ready if it was a home invader, OR, he could have instantly produced empty hands when he saw they were officers.

Its about how you carry, what you carry and the training and practice producing your handgun.

An example, I pocket carry J frame. Nothing to hang up while drawing, and no one thinks anything about seeing someone walking around with their hands in their pockets. I can have my hand on my revolver without anyone knowing, or I can instantly produce empty hands.

Think about how you carry, think about how it would look if you had your hand on your gun. Get a shot timer and see how long it takes you to draw and fire. In other words THINK.

Again lets try to stay away from the discussion of the officers involved in the above story. That has already been addressed by the City and the Police Dept. involved.
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Old March 12, 2015, 10:44 AM   #2
g.willikers
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Where we used to live, a neighbor was shot and killed by the police.
The neighbor had called the police to report a prowler.
When the police arrived, they did find what looked to be a prowler with gun in hand.
Unfortunately, it was the home owner.
Probably the biggest mistake made by people is opening the door and going out looking for trouble.
If you call the cops, don't go outside to do their job, especially with gun in hand.
They have no way of telling the good guys from the bad until it might be too late.
And it's just as easy to talk to someone through a closed door as an open one, whether it's high noon or the wee dark hours.
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Old March 12, 2015, 11:24 AM   #3
Don P
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My thoughts, self awareness of ones surroundings job one. Being said warn parties in both gas pump and ATM to back off. If compliance is happening then all appears to be good. If non compliance then all bets are off and brandishing is in order.
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Old March 12, 2015, 11:39 AM   #4
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For the gas pump scenario, the best play, if possible, might be to just jump in the car and speed away.
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Old March 12, 2015, 11:58 AM   #5
aarondhgraham
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Valid thought kraigwy,,,

Quote:
An example, I pocket carry J frame. Nothing to hang up while drawing, and no one thinks anything about seeing someone walking around with their hands in their pockets. I can have my hand on my revolver without anyone knowing, or I can instantly produce empty hands.
I feel this is a very valid methodology,,,
It's one of the reasons I carry a small handgun.

My schedule dictates I do a lot of my business (shopping, etc) after dark,,,
When I walk across a dark parking lot my LCP is in my hand,,,
My hand is inside my jacket pocket.

I often carry in a Gun Toten Mama's briefcase,,,
It has a holster inside of an easily accessible zipped compartment.

I have found it's very easy to have my hand on my pistol,,,
And no one watching ever notices that I have my pistol in hand.

Honestly, I've spent many hours soul-searching,,,
Trying to decide if I'm being overly paranoid.

I've decided to err on the side of over-caution.

I live in a small college town,,,
But not a week goes by that someone isn't robbed.

In broad daylight I don't do this,,,
But at night my tiny pistol is often "in hand".

Aarond

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Old March 12, 2015, 11:59 AM   #6
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Depends on several factors, not the least of which are your physical abilities and, your immediate surroundings. I agree that your ability to draw from concealment quickly is possibly one of the most important things to practice.

However, not every person that walks within 50ft of you is a threat.

Quote:
Being said warn parties in both gas pump and ATM to back off. If compliance is happening then all appears to be good. If non compliance then all bets are off and brandishing is in order.
My thoughts, if you keep "warning" people, you may start to be perceived to be unstable and, a threat. Keep an eye on you surroundings and, be vigilant. Not paranoid/ delusional.
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Old March 12, 2015, 12:01 PM   #7
Deaf Smith
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Kreg,

One does not need to brandish a gun if they are alert, quick, and well practiced.

While most people have a reaction time of about 1 and 1/2 seconds, an alert individual who is skilled can cut that down alot.

Personally I don't go to ATMs at night (of at another time.)

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Old March 12, 2015, 12:16 PM   #8
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Quote:
the man steps out on the porch with his pistol to investigate.
Anytime I get a strange knock on my door at anytime of day or night, and I'm not expecting someone, I don't go outside to investigate. I stay inside calmly waiting with a much larger gun in my hand than a j-frame, and my wife does the same if I'm not home.

I like what your saying about non-descript draw, or prep for a draw, that's why I prefer AIWB. I've done pocket carry, but practising drawing while seated or prone on the ground was so difficult to do with any speed, even under complete calm, that I really doubted the worth of that carry style for me.
I can also carry a much larger, more 'shootable' gun AIWB. Of course, AIWB has it's own drawbacks too, like everything.

For giggles, when you practice your pocket draw and fire with snap-caps, have a training buddy push you to the ground from behind, then see how well your draw goes. I think pocket draw works really well as long as you see the possible threat in advance, and your standing up. Remember the video discussed at length here about the store robbery were two gunmen open up on 3 store employees behind the counter. Of the 3 employees, only the woman was able to return fire and help end the confrontation. One of the male employees was pocket carrying a snub, but was forced to hit the floor behind the counter as the 2 bad guys opened fire. While on the ground he was unable to draw his revolver and contribute to the fight at all. He was only saved by the woman.

Heck, I wear loose fit jeans and sometimes have trouble pulling my keys out of my pocket just walking to the car!

No thanks to pocket carry.
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Old March 12, 2015, 02:04 PM   #9
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Yes, access to your firearm is very important and there are lots of situations that can make this difficult. If you’re wearing winter clothing can you get to that IWB holster? What if your sitting in your car with seat belt fastened can you get to that weapon that you carry at the four o’clock position?

I’ve been thinking a lot about this lately and not sure I’ve quite figured it all out. I don’t really like the idea of removing my gun from the holster and placing in my jacket pocket and then re-holstering it when I remove my jacket. I’ve got a fried that carries a handgun in an IWB holster and also carries J-Frame in the door pocket of his truck.

Anyway, I guess each person has to make their own decisions.
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Old March 12, 2015, 02:05 PM   #10
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Quote:
The answer is ability to draw from concealment instantly, less then 0.5 seconds. If you can't then you need to re-evaluate your training or method of carry or both.
Well, there is the "cowboy quickdraw myth" coming up again.

Please produce video of you and your students drawing from concealment in less than 0.5 seconds ... consistently, raw footage with no edits, hitting the A Zone at 7 yards.

Having issued this kind of challenge several times, I've learned a few lessons.

Please set your shot timer at 4 seconds, with variable-delay enabled, to insure that you and your students are reacting, as opposed to counting the time. Normal clothing, normal guns, normal holsters.
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Old March 12, 2015, 03:25 PM   #11
g.willikers
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Back in the day a bunch of us attended at least a match per week, and quite often two, and we dry fired every day.
Most of us could fairly consistently hit the A zone of a USPSA target from 7 yds in under 1 second.
No problem.
The last time I recently tried it the results were.....
Well, I think I'll take the fifth on that.
Or maybe I should have had a fifth before trying.
It was over 2 sec.
If a fast draw and accurate hit under 1 sec is important, it takes constant practice.
Although oddly enough, wearing a jacket or starting from the surrender position doesn't seem to slow things down much.
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Old March 12, 2015, 03:31 PM   #12
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Under 2 seconds is doable by almost anyone with some practice, unless they have physical issues.

1.5 or under is doable by a good part of the population.

Under 1 ... the air starts to get thin.

UNDER 0.5? I don't doubt that some could do it, but the number will be small.

Suggesting that there is something wrong with the way one trains or carries, unless they can consistently draw from concealment in under 0.5 seconds ... I'm holding my tongue, barely.
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Old March 12, 2015, 03:47 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombietactics
UNDER 0.5? I don't doubt that some could do it, but the number will be small.
You know he's talking about having the gun (concealed hammer j-frame) in his pocket, finger on the trigger, and already aimed (point shooting) at his target through his pocket? He's not drawing the gun, he's just pulling the trigger in his pocket. At least that's the way I believed he described his "0.5 second draw" previously.

At a lot of the matches I run, I do a reaction speed test. Finger on the trigger, no target, just put a bullet into the berm when you hear a beep. The vast majority of people come in around 0.25 seconds. Not real uncommon to get someone consistently just below 0.20 seconds. Very rarely is anyone slower than 0.30 seconds.

I have no doubt that the vast majority of people could get off a shot through their pocket (finger already on the trigger, gun pointed downrange) in under 0.5 seconds.

The effectiveness of that shot (placement) and any follow up shots would be very questionable, and a demonstration could be very enlightening!

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Old March 12, 2015, 03:59 PM   #14
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Quote:
The answer is ability to draw from concealment instantly, less then 0.5 seconds.

Quote:
You know he's talking about having the gun in his pocket, finger on the trigger, and already aimed (point shooting) at his target through his pocket?
Oh, I remember Gunkid used to post all about the .5 second pocket draw. Of course he expected everyone to walk around with their hands in their pockets all the time.

Catch is folks you have to ascertain if it's a shoot-no-shoot situation first. That tends to take more than the actual draw. It's part of the reaction time and it can vary hugely.

If you can get by that and see a valid reason to draw, then the draw itself will be below one second with any strong side holster and correct concealment.

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Old March 12, 2015, 04:01 PM   #15
zombietactics
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I know what he wrote, regardless of what he meant:
Quote:
... The answer is ability to draw from concealment instantly, less then 0.5 seconds. If you can't then you need to re-evaluate your training or method of carry or both. ...
I reject every notion of that post. The notion that somehow "the answer" is to do something almost nobody can do is not helpful, even if it's used as a selectively-simplistic rationalization for an alternate method of carry (i.e. a pocket revolver).

Having reviewed - at this time - hundreds (maybe more than a thousand) self-defense incidents on video, it doesn't look like anyone is successful in outdrawing their opponent, especially if that opponent has an already-drawn gun.

I acknowledge the utility of a pocket revolver. It's a smart option. It's just not THE ANSWER, nor is THE ANSWER a 0.5 second draw.

My honest hope is that the OP experienced a typographical ND (lol), and that the suggestion was 1.5, not 0.5.
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Old March 12, 2015, 04:20 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombietactics
My honest hope is that the OP experienced a typographical ND (lol), and that the suggestion was 1.5, not 0.5.
It's not a misprint, he's been a proponent of that technique as long as I've been on this forum. Supposedly anyone can do it.

For example, see this thread, post 25:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...et#post5902535

Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigwy
I use a shot timer. Starting with my hand in my pocket, it takes on the average of 4/10s of a second to draw and fire, hitting the center mass of the target at 3 yards.

Point shooting is not only something I practice, but its something I teach. The idea is to prove just because someone has the drop on you, doesn't mean they have the advantage.
Or this one, post 16:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...et#post5142307

Quote:
She ask about this very topic. She heard me mention that I can get my revolver in action in about 1/2 second and wanted to see it.

I gave her the shot timer and had her give me a start. From the pocket, hitting center mass at 7 yards I did it in .45 seconds. It can be done, but like anything else, it takes practice.

I also showed her that, just because one has the drop on you, you still have the ball in your court.
...

I'm not a pistol shooter, I'm a rifle shooter. Add that to the fact that in a couple weeks I'll be 65 years old, If I can do it, anyone can.

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Old March 12, 2015, 04:30 PM   #17
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First, I think it would be incredibly stupid to leave the safety of your home to check on the mysterious banging on your front door. A good rule is... if you aren't expecting company, its likely a sales person, bible thump-er or criminal. If its the cops, you don't want to talk to them anyway because if they are initiating contact, it is probably because you are a suspect in a crime. Be it letting your dog bark all night or a bogus complaint made by a neighbor. People that know me don't come over unannounced so when my doorbell rings and I am not expecting a delivery (UPS or FedEx), I grab the pistol and wait for them to leave. Sales person, bible thump-er, criminal or cops, I don't want to talk with any of them. Something else to consider is, a person generally has more legal rights defending themselves in their home as opposed to in their yard.

If compelled to answer the door because curiosity has gotten the best of you, at least check the situation from a window. I have heard of homeowners answering the door with gun in hand, police waiting and they either get shot or charged with assaulting a police officer with dangerous / deadly weapon.

Drawing in half-second from concealment would be difficult. I believe the Tueller Drill says 1.5 seconds to draw and fire from an exposed police holster.

Gas station issue? As soon as I pull into the lot I scan and select a pump as far away from the most thug looking person I see. I get out, lock the doors and I slowly circle my vehicle as though I were inspecting the tires, lights, etc.. and I keep an eye on folks. If someone starts to approach, keep the car between me and perp and ask, "what can I do for you"... and proceed from this standpoint based on their reaction.

ATM? First, I never carry cash so its rare I would be stopping at an ATM. If I do need the ATM, I'll go to a bank with open lot and drive-up. Again, scan the lot etc... If in a bad part of town the G19 will move from holster to crotch.

I attended Massad Ayoob's MAG20 class in 2013 and he presented a helpful method of deciding when to draw and or fire your gun. He aligns the Cooper color codes of awareness and levels of proof. Here it is:

Levels Of Proof
  1. Mere suspicion (MS): Beliefs are unfounded. You are making a wild-a$$-guess.
  2. Articulable suspicion (AS): (if you cannot explain it, don't do it!).
  3. Probable cause (PC): Grey area between suspicion and proof. Can be less than 50% certainty.
  4. Preponderance of the evidence (POE): Gray area between suspicion and proof but with greater than 50% certainty.
  5. Beyond a reasonable doubt (BARD): 95% to 99.9% certainty.

Color Codes of Awareness
  1. White: You are not aware of your surroundings
  2. Yellow: You are aware of your surroundings (relaxed awareness)
  3. Orange: Unspecified alert. Danger exists but not yet known. Look for the "target stare", whats in peoples hands.
  4. Red: Threat has identified itself (fight or flight). Will experience high level of body alarm response.
  5. Black: The lethal assault is underway and someone is trying to kill you.

When to Draw and Fire in Self-Defense
  1. Mere suspicion and condition White: Never draw gun. Heart Rate 60-80 (normal range)
  2. Articulable suspicion and condition Yellow: Never draw gun. Heart rate 100-115
  3. Probable cause and condition Orange: Never draw gun. Heart rate 115-145. Fine motor skills deteriorate. Optimal for survival and combat performance.
  4. Preponderance of the evidence and condition Red: Take at gunpoint. Heart rate 160-175. Common effects: Tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, loss of near vision, loss of depth perception, vasoconstriction, cognitive processing deteriorates. A person may experience some, all or none of these body responses.
  5. Beyond a reasonable doubt and condition Black: Fire your gun. Heart rate 175-220. Common effects: Irrational fight or flee, freezing, submissive behavior, void bladder and or bowel... including effects experienced in condition Red. A person may experience some, all or none of these body responses.
The heart rates and body responses were also covered in class. You can also find them in Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's book titled On Combat, ch. 4 pg. 31

I believe there is a grey area between drawing and not drawing your firearm. Furtive movement isn't something only reserved for criminals but it can work to our benefit as well.... Long story short, last year I was followed into a gas station parking lot on a Sunday morning at about 4:45AM. I pulled up to a pump and the tail circled up to the side of the building facing me in the car. Because of lighting, I couldnt see into their vehicle but they could see into mine. It took about 3 seconds for my brain to register WARNING and that is when I did the long reach across to my glove box and puled out my G19. I would call this a furtive movement that telegraphed a specific message to the occupants in the other vehicle. Based on the context of the situation, my movement was consistent with going for a weapon. The driver of the other car knew this and immediately rolled out of the lot and left.

So here was a situation where I didn't have to display a firearm but was able to send the message, "you may have selected the wrong victim".

On another occasion I was pushing the trashcan to the curb at about 6AM and two thugs are walking up my alley. "Hey whats in the can?" as his foot stepped off of the alley onto the shared driveway in my direction. I slid my hand into my (empty) front pocket while backing up and I replied, "why dont you take a look". They straightened their direction of travel, hands came up to the chest with a laugh like its all a big joke. Felt more like an interview.

If a persons awareness is up when in public, distance and obstacles will buy a person time. If a person is approaching, backup while saying, "that's close enough. what do you want". If they continue to close, their intent is beginning to manifest itself and on the AOJ scale, Opportunity and Jeopardy are in-play.
This was a scenario a female friend of mine was faced with about a week after she got her permit to carry. Leaving a grocery story with 2-3 bags of groceries in her arms a thug twice her size calls from across the lot heading in her direction, "hey can I ask you a question". She yelled twice demanding he stay away and his approach quickened util she dropped her bags and reached for her pistol at four o'clock. Then the thugs hands go up, he turns and leaves.
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Old March 12, 2015, 04:34 PM   #18
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First off, the hand does grip the revolver. The finger is NOT ON THE TRIGGER.

Point shooting is just that point shooting. You learn by starting out without the gun.

You point with your finger. You have a tendency to point where you look.

Once you realize you are actually pointing at the target, you move to the gun.

You don't want your finger on the trigger, besides the safety reason, your finger isn't pointing. To point your finger, the index finger lays under the cylinder on a revolver or along the slide.

You are point shooting. It defeats the purpose to have your finger on the trigger.

I don't point shoot at 7 yards, at that distance you have time to bring the gun up. Point shooting is quite effective at < 3 yards, the distance where a huge majority of SD shooting occur.

A good training exercise is to use a partner and one of those blue training guns (or in none is available, your pointed finger). DO NOT USE A FIREARM.

Stand facing your partner at arms length. Have your partner hold is hand out shoulder width a part. You stand facing your partner ready to draw your revolver. When your partner sees you start to draw, he's to slap his hands before you can get your training aid or pointed finger between the hands.

You'd really be surprised how easy it is to beat the slapping hands.

I'll try to find some who knows how to make videos and we'll see if we can make some training videos.
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Old March 12, 2015, 04:42 PM   #19
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I'm still trying to process banishing my gun......and blaming a spell checker.

Anyhow, he is right that there are some advantages to pocket carry.

And.....as someone else pointed out, you have to wear the right kind of pants to pocket-carry effectively.

Forget your tight jeans.....that's over.

All in all.....I'm just a little bemused and puzzled by this thread.
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Old March 12, 2015, 05:04 PM   #20
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Sounds like rather than a "draw from concealment" we are instead talking about a "pre-draw" technique, with the hand already on the gun.

I concede that firing from a "pre-draw" position is possible within 0.5 seconds ... no need for video. I thank you for the clarification.

I do reject the notion however, that this THE ANSWER.
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Old March 12, 2015, 06:07 PM   #21
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Well some don't think its the answer. I do.

When I was in LE in Anchorage it would get nippy every now and then we were issued parka's that had a zipper on the side that was suppose to allow us to draw the service revolver. It did, the gun seem to always get caught up in the coat.

I took to carrying a stubby in my coat pocket, and when I was unsure of a situation I always had my hand on the gun.

This is nothing more then a carry over from that practice.
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Old March 12, 2015, 06:14 PM   #22
Deaf Smith
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Quote:
First off, the hand does grip the revolver. The finger is NOT ON THE TRIGGER.

Point shooting is just that point shooting. You learn by starting out without the gun.

You point with your finger. You have a tendency to point where you look.

Once you realize you are actually pointing at the target, you move to the gun.

You don't want your finger on the trigger, besides the safety reason, your finger isn't pointing. To point your finger, the index finger lays under the cylinder on a revolver or along the slide.

You are point shooting. It defeats the purpose to have your finger on the trigger.

I don't point shoot at 7 yards, at that distance you have time to bring the gun up. Point shooting is quite effective at < 3 yards, the distance where a huge majority of SD shooting occur.

A good training exercise is to use a partner and one of those blue training guns (or in none is available, your pointed finger). DO NOT USE A FIREARM.

Stand facing your partner at arms length. Have your partner hold is hand out shoulder width a part. You stand facing your partner ready to draw your revolver. When your partner sees you start to draw, he's to slap his hands before you can get your training aid or pointed finger between the hands.

You'd really be surprised how easy it is to beat the slapping hands.

I'll try to find some who knows how to make videos and we'll see if we can make some training videos.
Kraig,

If your trigger finger is pointing and not on the trigger, what finger is on the trigger?

Deaf
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Old March 12, 2015, 07:38 PM   #23
tepin
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My guess is his thumb.
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Old March 12, 2015, 07:59 PM   #24
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I think he may next tell us that the ultimate solution is a gun in each shoe.......with the big toe on the trigger of each gun and capable of putting two rounds on target in .713 seconds.

I don't know.....the whole scenario has confused me since "Banish" and things haven't gotten much better.
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Old March 13, 2015, 11:05 AM   #25
zombietactics
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigwy
Well some don't think its the answer. I do.
I believe we were all clear that you think it's the answer, and that others don't. I'm not sure what value repeating it adds to the conversation.

I think most of us would readily agree that a revolver, carried in the pocket, is a viable, intelligent option.

What's missing is a compelling argument as to why it's the answer to the cases you noted, given a wide body of evidence supporting other solutions being equally viable. Anecdotal stories are a poor substitute, and reveal little of general value.
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