The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 31, 2015, 10:58 AM   #1
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 17,662
Deal with it.

This is a great line from Tom Given's newsletter:

Quote:
You know, when I had to hit that guy all the way
across the street, it never occurred to me that I was
a statistical exception. I just had to deal with it."
It points out the silliness we sometimes see where folks seem to think that the average distance and number of shots will always happen.

http://www.rangemaster.com/wp-conten...Newsletter.pdf

for the entire article. Worth reading.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old November 3, 2015, 03:48 PM   #2
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,849
That was a great article. Thank you for posting.

We prepare for worst case scenario as it is by carrying a gun. Why sell yourself short and handicap certain aspects just for a little extra comfort?

Very good post.
__________________
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
Constantine is offline  
Old November 4, 2015, 09:05 AM   #3
45Gunner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2009
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Posts: 1,837
Very interesting read. Thanks for posting.
__________________
45Gunner
May the Schwartz Be With You.
NRA Instructor
NRA Life Member
45Gunner is offline  
Old November 4, 2015, 12:54 PM   #4
adamBomb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 19, 2015
Location: coastal NC
Posts: 342
Good article. Lots of good stats there too.

Quote:
Why sell yourself short and handicap certain aspects just for a little extra comfort?
For me, I need a small gun or I wont carry. I am small framed and even my taurus pt111, which is a subcompact gun prints IWB at 3/4 oclock, which is the only way I can comfortably carry. Its also too heavy and feels like Im carrying a brick. I am jumping down to the glock 43, which is smaller and lighter. So Im going from 12 to 6 rounds. I hate to do it but 6 rounds on me is better than 12 rounds in the safe. But more is always better and a gun you can control better, shoot farther, etc is always better to. I was considering a .380 round for an even smaller gun but am making some size sacrifice by keeping the 9mm. I guess we all need to find our balance.
adamBomb is offline  
Old November 4, 2015, 01:55 PM   #5
OnTheFly
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2007
Location: SE Nebraska
Posts: 859
I am an advocate of pushing your shooting abilities. Going to a range, standing in a shooting lane, taking carefully placed shots on a silhouette target and being pleased that most of the hits were near CoM does not mean you are ready for the stress of SD using a firearm.

Occasionally the competitions I attend have pretty inexperienced competitors, though they are not new to firearms. I can't tell you how many times I have heard comments like "I've never shot strong/weak hand only", "I've never had to do a reload", "I've never shot out to 25 yards before", "Can I step around the wall to shoot the target because otherwise I have to lean around it?", "I couldn't hit the target because my heart was beating so fast", and many others.

A person with limited time/resources may "train" for the most likely SD scenario which may be that magic ____ yards. However, the chance for any of us to be in a SD situation or to ever have the need to use a firearm is incredibly low. For some, the chances may be higher due to employment, environment, or other factors. The average though is quite low.

So what is a person to do with limited time and resources when doing what they can to "train" for that unlikely need for a firearm? Probably look at statistics, maybe listen to the SD "Experts" and see what the basics are that they need to be able to perform.

I think MANY gun owners that carry/own guns for SD need to do some simple things such as practice a draw. Not at the range, but at home with an unloaded firearm. Snap caps would be even better because they could also practice a trigger pull. For all of those that carry, when was the last time you practiced your draw from your preferred method of carry? Sure, behind the back may fit your body and lifestyle the best, but can you deploy your pistol quickly when needed? Does it take you 1.5 seconds to present it, or do you struggle with the reach and clothing getting in the way all resulting in an inconsistent draw? Put a timer on yourself and see just how practical your method of carry is. Then see if you can do a reload. By the statistics of average rounds fired in a SD situation it is unlikely that you would have to reload, but do you know if you can do it? How coordinated is it and how fast? Can you do it in 2 seconds, or does it take you 5 seconds?

While you are practicing your draw, why not add in a safety check? Is your finger off the trigger until pointing at the target? Is your finger off the trigger while loading/unloading? I see this one a LOT and people have no idea they are doing it. Do you sweep yourself when holstering, unholstering, reloading, unloading, etc? If you are holding your gun and you reach for something with your weak hand, does your muzzle point at what you are reaching for, and thus sweep your weak hand? A practical example of that is carrying a pistol in your strong hand, and reach to open a door with your weak hand. Are you pointing the muzzle at the doorknob which means pointing it at your weak hand?

I know people who own guns for SD and do nothing to train with them. I know others who go to the range and practice accuracy. Others go to the range and practice speed + accuracy. Others attend matches (IDPA & USPSA) and put themselves under the stress of competition and a timer to push their skills. Then there are others who not only compete, but also have a healthy regime of dry/live fire training. Then there is the school who doesn't believe in such shenanigans, and does a lot of training trying to simulate real life events such as car jacking, muggings, home invasion, zombie tactics. Yes, zombies are real...it's coming just you wait!

In the end, I don't fault people for training to their level of comfort or perceived need. Though what I do fault people on is not training themselves to use at least the basic rules of firearm safety. This means PHYSICALLY practicing it. Not just learning the words and telling themselves "I'm a safe gun owner". Levels of learning: wrote, understanding, application, and correlation. So many stop at the understanding level or even wrote. sigh

Fly
__________________
I told my wife I was scheduling a mid-life crisis. It was either a Harley or guns. Secretly, I've already decided on guns. :-)

Bang... Bang... Bang...
OnTheFly is offline  
Old November 8, 2015, 10:26 AM   #6
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 8,684
OnTheFly,
Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel.
Good rant, there.
Comparing all the forum conversations about stuff and how few conversations on how to use stuff, you're probably whistling to the wind, though.
But keep nagging, there's some who listen.
__________________
Lock the doors, they're coming in the windows.
g.willikers is offline  
Old November 8, 2015, 11:47 AM   #7
OnTheFly
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2007
Location: SE Nebraska
Posts: 859
Quote:
Originally Posted by g. willikers
OnTheFly,
Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel.
Good rant, there.
Comparing all the forum conversations about stuff and how few conversations on how to use stuff, you're probably whistling to the wind, though.
But keep nagging, there's some who listen.
Yeah...felt good to get that off my chest.

Fly
__________________
I told my wife I was scheduling a mid-life crisis. It was either a Harley or guns. Secretly, I've already decided on guns. :-)

Bang... Bang... Bang...
OnTheFly is offline  
Old November 8, 2015, 11:56 AM   #8
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 17,662
I concur and great post. One thing I have seen in debates on campus carry is the fear that the untrained will shoot an innocent during a critical incident.

I pull my hair out at folks who talk guns and ammo and won't train even a little.

My gun shoots to the right, left, up or down. I need a new gun, a new grip. Glocks don't work for me because of their ergonomics. I need a shotgun because I won't miss. Blah, blah. Guess what most of that is in the user.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old November 8, 2015, 12:14 PM   #9
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 7,384
One thing that formal classes and formal competitions do for us: they put the decision of what matters and what we will practice into someone else's hands. Taking it out of our own, moving it away from our own preferences and desires.

Does this matter? Yup. Given the natural human tendency to practice only what we're already good at, when we're practiciing for self defense it's crucial to put someone else in the driver's seat for awhile. That's because every one of us have holes in our skills. Every shooter has limitations they could easily fix if they knew those limitations were there.

But by definition, we can't see our own blind spots. That's why we really need the work of people to help us find them.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old November 8, 2015, 12:27 PM   #10
45_auto
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2011
Location: Southern Louisiana
Posts: 1,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
My gun shoots to the right, left, up or down. I need a new gun, a new grip. Glocks don't work for me because of their ergonomics. I need a shotgun because I won't miss. Blah, blah. Guess what most of that is in the user.
100% agreement here. I run a local pistol match, and every few months we'll throw in a scenario where you have to use someone else's gun. Always great fun.

My experience has been that it makes no difference to the good shooters which gun they're shooting. They still come out on top. The ones who whine about grip angle, sight color, sight dots vs no dots, this trigger vs that trigger, etc, etc, etc, bring up the bottom no matter what they're shooting.

Seems that if you're close enough to be point shooting, you're so close that all the differences make no difference. If you're far enough away to use the sights, a flash sight picture and a smooth trigger squeeze gives the same results with every gun.
45_auto is offline  
Old November 8, 2015, 02:16 PM   #11
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 8,684
If you want to hear some serious whining, add a problem to that strange gun they have to use.
An empty chamber for the revolver, or a dud round for the pistol.....
Whatever your devious mind can come up with.
Very entertaining.
__________________
Lock the doors, they're coming in the windows.
g.willikers is offline  
Old November 8, 2015, 02:22 PM   #12
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,580
Quote:
It points out the silliness we sometimes see where folks seem to think that the average distance and number of shots will always happen.
When in the past i have posted that carrying extra ammo makes sence i have had mods pointing out that most shootings take place a certian distance and number of rounds fired, so 5 for example should be enough.
manta49 is offline  
Old November 8, 2015, 04:08 PM   #13
orionengnr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2004
Posts: 5,147
Thank you--good read.

Quote:
We only shoot with one hand if we only have one hand available. As a result the vast majority of our students’ shootings have involved two handed eye level shooting and as a result the hit ratio is running around 95%
95% is a pretty impressive real-world hit ratio.
He (and his students) are definitely doing something right.
orionengnr is offline  
Old November 8, 2015, 09:51 PM   #14
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 17,662
Quote:
When in the past i have posted that carrying extra ammo makes sence i have had mods pointing out that most shootings take place a certian distance and number of rounds fired, so 5 for example should be enough.
Be specific. It certainly wasn't me.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old November 9, 2015, 12:56 AM   #15
OnTheFly
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2007
Location: SE Nebraska
Posts: 859
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
My gun shoots to the right, left, up or down. I need a new gun, a new grip. Glocks don't work for me because of their ergonomics. I need a shotgun because I won't miss. Blah, blah. Guess what most of that is in the user.
I know right?! I was at the local range when a three guys came out to shoot together. They were only shooting out to 7 yards and one of them was having a heck of a time hitting the target. They kept saying things like "Gosh, I don't know why you're not hitting it". I stopped and watched the guy mash the trigger so hard he was driving them low even at 7 yards. Then his slide locked back and he didn't notice. I watched his face as he yanked the trigger on the empty pistol, and he was slamming his eyes shut.

Being an instructor since I was 19, I couldn't help but give my two cents. After taking my advice, he was suddenly on paper. The nice part is that he thanked me when he left the range. My pleasure!

Another time at the range, an acquaintance was shooting a couple of lanes down. I would hear BANG and then "Huh!". Another BANG followed by "Gosh!". After this went on for several minutes, I just couldn't help but ask what he was having trouble with. He told me that one time the gun was shooting high, then he would adjust the sights and it would shoot low. I asked, "Have you ever shot the gun off of a rest so that you are confident the sights are being held steady and then squeeze the trigger very carefully?" He said "No...why would I do that?" and I told him in a very nice way "Well, chances are it's not the gun, it is you". The next time I saw him he thanked me and said I was correct. I know...I'm a genius.

Before someone goes crazy about using a rest with a pistol, yes I am aware that a rest doesn't show where the shooter is going to place the shots offhand, but it does test the accuracy of the gun to make sure it is functioning correctly.

Fly
__________________
I told my wife I was scheduling a mid-life crisis. It was either a Harley or guns. Secretly, I've already decided on guns. :-)

Bang... Bang... Bang...
OnTheFly is offline  
Old November 10, 2015, 12:34 PM   #16
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 9,754
Good article, I enjoyed reading it!
Skans is offline  
Old November 11, 2015, 07:00 PM   #17
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 2,818
I bought a glock, and first time on the range I got pretty good accuracy from 20 out to 60 feet, at the time I had never fired a similar handgun. I felt that I could reliably get a kill shot at fifty plus, unless conditions sucked.

I mentioned this to an acquaintance who was a casual shooter. He said that learning to shoot beyond 25feet was stupid. When I was once again capable of speech, I hollered "ARE YOU COMPLETELY FARKING MENTAL?"

The deer is always a few feet farther. You never want anything dangerous to get too close. If you can't hit a rabid Chihuahua at ten or fifteen feet, you're going to need long and painful treatment.

It's a given fact that in principle, your defensive weapon can't be too powerful, you can't have too many bullets, and there is no such thing as a firearm that is too accurate. Those concepts are just as stupid as a combat professional believing that he doesn't need to ever practice again because he qualified.
briandg is offline  
Old November 12, 2015, 12:59 PM   #18
45_auto
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2011
Location: Southern Louisiana
Posts: 1,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by briandg
It's a given fact that in principle, your defensive weapon can't be too powerful
If that's a "given fact" then why don't we all carry S&W 500's or .44 Auto-Mags as our defensive weapon of choice?
45_auto is offline  
Old November 12, 2015, 03:16 PM   #19
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 11,212
Deal with it

Yes, it always bothers me when others seem to be able to tell me at what distance my gun fight will be and how many rounds I will need accomplish the task at some unknown time in the future at some unknown location.

It doesn't matter what the average is. It doesn't matter how many times similar events have or have not happened. All that matters is what your situation is at the time.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old November 12, 2015, 04:18 PM   #20
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,580
Quote:
Be specific. It certainly wasn't me.
It would take to long to find them, it was along the lines ponting out stats, close range average 2 rounds etc.
manta49 is offline  
Old November 12, 2015, 04:22 PM   #21
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 2,818
What is so hard to understand about TOO powerful? Did I say "not powerful enough?"

Defensive/combat weapons of the past include the army issued 47-70. We now use 12 gauge slugs and shot, full auto weapons,and plenty of people use large guns such as .44 magnum for general defensive use. Some people even carry the .45 auto.

The only time a round can be said to be "too powerful" is if collateral damage exceeds allowed levels, or if the target is an unarmed boy,and the shooter is a cop.

I learned this from Elmer Keith forty years ago. Clint Smith gave me a refresher course.
briandg is offline  
Old November 12, 2015, 05:56 PM   #22
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 23,190
I am not sure I see a Model 1873 trapdoor, a 12 gauge slug gun, a .50 HB M2 or even a .44 Magnum as very practical when discussing concealed weapons for defensive use.

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old November 12, 2015, 06:34 PM   #23
45_auto
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2011
Location: Southern Louisiana
Posts: 1,196
Quote:
Originally Posted by briandg
Did I say "not powerful enough?
Nope, you said, and I'll quote for you again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by briandg
It's a given fact that in principle, your defensive weapon can't be too powerful
Most people figured out a long time ago that in a defensive weapon there is a trade off between power, round count, and controllability. In one of the most well-known cases, the FBI figured out about 20 years ago that the 10mm was too powerful for most agents to control. Kind of flies in the face of your "fact".

Quote:
Originally Posted by briandg
Defensive/combat weapons of the past include the army issued 47-70.
Is the army issued 47-70 another one of your "facts"? Any references you can provide a link to? You may find it beneficial to do a little more research on that "fact".

Quote:
Originally Posted by briandg
The only time a round can be said to be "too powerful" is if collateral damage exceeds allowed levels, or if the target is an unarmed boy,and the shooter is a cop.
As I stated previously, it's pretty common knowledge that a round can be said to be "too powerful" if the benefits of it's power exceed the ability of the user to control it. The FBI figured that out 20 years or so ago and gave us the 40 S&W in place of the full-power (too powerful) 10mm.

As another example, have you ever fired an M-14 on full auto? There's a reason that the military disabled the full-auto selector on them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M14_rifle

Quote:
Also, because of the M14's powerful 7.62×51 mm cartridge, the weapon was deemed virtually uncontrollable in fully automatic mode....The cartridge was too powerful for the submachine gun role and the weapon was simply too light to serve as a light machine gun replacement for the BAR.
Quote:
Originally Posted by briandg
I learned this from Elmer Keith forty years ago. Clint Smith gave me a refresher course.
Perhaps another refresher course from more knowledgeable sources is in order.
45_auto is offline  
Old November 14, 2015, 08:59 PM   #24
Hook686
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2005
Location: USA The Great State of California
Posts: 2,086
Quote:
Why then, do they persist?
I doubt the shooter is the only deranged individual on this planet.
__________________
Hook686

When the number of people in institutions reaches 51%, we change sides.
Hook686 is offline  
Old November 15, 2015, 03:26 PM   #25
Big Shrek
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 6, 2009
Location: NorthWest Florida
Posts: 996
Quote:
Why then, do they persist?
Probably due to the billions of people on the planet, a percentage of which are just plain old batsquish crazy.
And our healthcare system currently does very, very little to address that fact.
__________________
Marlin Specialist
Calico Specialist
A gun should be a tool in the hands of a deadly weapon, not a deadly weapon in the hands of a tool.
Big Shrek is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2016 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13516 seconds with 9 queries