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Old March 10, 2015, 09:03 AM   #1
Mitchum
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Accuracy with Concealed Carry Gun

Can you shoot your concealed gun with the same accuracy that you shoot other handguns with? I purchased a Kahr CM45 for my concealed gun. I'm an inexperienced shooter and pistol shooting about 5 months now. I have no complaints about the Kahr itself - performance has been fine. However, as I've purchased a couple other guns that I like to shoot with, namely a Ruger SR45 and an ATI FX1911 45, I've found that I'm more accurate with these guns. I have big hands and with the Kahr I just don't seem to be able to consistently press the trigger unlike with the other two I mentioned.

Is this something you just work around and become more proficient with as you shoot more with the concealed gun? Or, is it just too small for my size of hands? I read of others using much larger guns for concealed and am considering it but don't want to switch if eventually, with more practice, I can make the Kahr work. The idea is to conceal and it will be easier to conceal the Kahr than a larger gun. I have yet to receive my CCW license but have purchased a couple holsters and have practiced carrying around the house. The Kahr conceals ok but I haven't tried others. I'm tall and lean so I may be able to get away with carrying something a little bigger.

Anyone else start with a smaller concealed and switch to something larger for this reason?
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Old March 10, 2015, 09:11 AM   #2
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I never shoot my CCW handguns beyond 7 yards and at that range keeping everything inside 10" is doable with all of them . I don't consider these handguns to be target guns and don't expect that sort of accuracy from them. Reliability and reasonable accuracy is paramount.
With target handguns accuracy and reasonable reliability are paramount.
Every once in awhile extreme accuracy and extreme reliability come together in one handgun. Those are called "keepers".
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Old March 10, 2015, 09:35 AM   #3
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My CC is shot at 7' to 7 yds. My others are 25 yds. I try to shoot the CC a couple of times a month....25 rds+.When I get to shoot with some LEO's, I'll fire a complete PPC....if time permits.
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Old March 10, 2015, 09:38 AM   #4
g.willikers
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Sometimes it seems like swimming upstream, but if enough time and effort is put into it, any gun can become quick and accurate.
It just comes down to how much work you want to put into it.
A lot more for the gun you want to carry, or less work for something else that more easily falls to hand.
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Old March 10, 2015, 09:39 AM   #5
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Short answer, yes.

I have holsters for all my handguns so they are all carry guns.

Long answer
The one I carry the most, is a .380 and the shortest sight picture of all of them. While shooting out to 10 yards it isn't as accurate with the sights I train point and shoot the most with this gun, so, without sights, together we are more accurate.

I agree with MicroGunner, 10" at 7 yards is an excellent goal. I don't grade myself with paper, I have a local range with steel targets at 25'. I consider 5 out of 6 an acceptable showing on the large plates rapid fire. I can run up a dueling tree with their 4" plates and get about 4 out of 5 which is an even more awesome result. A cannot do this with my full sized 45 point and shoot, and my 9mm is too new to have been to steels. This is why I do not yet carry the 9mm much.
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Old March 10, 2015, 09:47 AM   #6
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Glock 26s are one of the most accurate of the Glocks.

Yep I sure can shoot that Glock well, but not as good as my Kimber Gold Match .45!

But that is being unfair!

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Old March 10, 2015, 10:00 AM   #7
Mitchum
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Good information - thanks to all who replied.

With my concealed gun I think I'm shooting close to what has been mentioned. I usually practice at 5, 7 and 10 yards. I have an occasional shot outside 10" but very few. I'll probably give it a little more time and try to improve accuracy. I have yet to try a quick draw and fire from concealed carry but plan to practice this too. I enjoy shooting as much as I have time for - .45 ammo gets a little expensive tho Reloading will be next fall/winter's new hobby
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Old March 10, 2015, 10:16 AM   #8
g.willikers
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Hopefully, your quick draw practice will be with dry firing an empty gun for a long while before trying it for real.
Dry firing in general is an excellent way to help get up to speed without going broke.

http://www.amazon.com/Refinement-Rep...erson+dry+fire

http://www.amazon.com/Dry-Fire-Train...erson+dry+fire
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Old March 10, 2015, 10:17 AM   #9
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Mitchum,

You have been shooting pistols for 5 months, I have been shooting pistols for 62 years, you will get better, trust me.

If you are long and lean, with big hands, you said so. Carry a pistol with a bigger capacity than your Kahr, why? You might need the extra rounds, in the gun!

For instance, my favorite carry pistol the Glock 19, 4th gen, the only carry gun for me, 16 rounds ready to go. My hands are medium sized, and the G19 suits me fine, your big hands, a cinch!

How are you going to get a CCW permit in Obamaville?
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Old March 10, 2015, 10:38 AM   #10
Mitchum
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Quote:
Hopefully, your quick draw practice will be with dry firing an empty gun for a long while before trying it for real.
Dry firing in general is an excellent way to help get up to speed without going broke.
Good point - yes I've practiced at home dry firing some and plan to continue. We practiced drawing and dry firing during our CCW class and for some reason it really drove the point home that this was necessary. God forbid you're confronted with a situation in which you have to draw for self-defense, it will be split second and training is key.

Quote:
How are you going to get a CCW permit in Obamaville?
62 years experience? Well you're just a few years ahead of me in pistol shooting Haha. I may try something other than my Kahr in the future. For now I want a .45 for concealed. I love the feel of the ATI 1911 I picked up and love how it shoots. I may eventually try a commander sized or something like the Glock you recommend to have something that fit's my hand better.

Illinois was the last holdout for concealed but it is legal here now - has been since mid 2014 I believe. The class I took was for Illinois resident and Florida non-resident.........I'll be able to legally concealed carry in 34 states. The application for Illinois can be completed online if you have digital fingerprints. The class I took had the digital print scanner so I applied online the evening I completed the class. Times vary but I've heard about 30 days to receive the license if completed online with digital prints. "Obamaville" - yes thanks for reminding me!
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Old March 10, 2015, 12:07 PM   #11
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Quote:
Can you shoot your concealed gun with the same accuracy that you shoot other handguns with?
No.

Not when hauling the 9mm Kahr. The Kahr simply does not have the sight radius of the 4.5 and 5.25 Springfields; therefore, accuracy is less.

Yes and No.

When the 9mm 4.5 Springfield is on board then it's accuracy potential is better than the Kahr, but not the 5.25 Springfield .45Auto (which is just a tad large for me to carry).

However, the mention of concealed carry adds another layer to the discussion. Now we must add speed to the accuracy. Toes on a line, taking one's time is the accuracy game. Rapid fire is a different animal. Then add movement.
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Old March 10, 2015, 01:17 PM   #12
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it depends on which gun im carrying, but for the most part no. After years of carry i find myself going with smaller guns that can more easily be carried....gone are the days of a glock 22 or a fullsized 1911....now i carry things like a glock27, a keltec pf9, a s&w snubbie.

Cant hit at 25 yards with them like i can my 1911, the glock is close. For me, can i hit at 10 yards and under, do the guns point easily, can i hit in low light conditions where maybe i cant see my sights....thats all i care about really. If im shooting at someone from a distance id have to ask myself why unless im returning fire in some weird scenario.....better bet would be to beat feet out of there.
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Old March 10, 2015, 02:34 PM   #13
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Mitchum, first welcome.

I've been shooting a carrying a gun 40+ years now, and I still don't shoot as well with my C.C.W. as I do with my full sized revolvers. My current C.C.W. is a Smith and Wesson model 640, a five shot double action,only, revolver. I work at 3, 5, and 7 yards with it; keeping 10 rounds in a 3"-4" center of mass area is all I believe anyone needs. For those who shoot better groups than that, Good for you, I just don't. Remember MOST armed conflicts happen between 12 inches and 15 feet.
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Old March 10, 2015, 02:58 PM   #14
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But then there's the young MP who made a 75 yard shot with his issue handgun, to stop a guy with a rifle from shooting people at a base hospital.
You just never know.
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Old March 10, 2015, 03:08 PM   #15
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"...I have big hands..." That'll do it. Too small can usually be fixed with a change of grips. Doesn't have to cost a fortune either, but it will not make a firearm more accurate. However, you'll always be able to shoot a firearm that fits you properly better than one that doesn't. Shooting a particular piece of kit better on a range will also boost your confidence in that firearm. Makes a difference. Oh and all new firearms require a trigger job due to frivolous law suits. That matters too.
The sight radius has very little to do with accuracy. A 2" Smith M19, for example, will shoot just as well as a 6". Trigger and trigger control, sight picture, breathing, ammo and barrel are far more important.
"...your quick draw..." Isn't anywhere near as important as making the shot count.
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Old March 10, 2015, 03:42 PM   #16
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I shoot my P2000 as well if not better than any of my other handguns. I carry it most often. Hitting 8x11 steel at 50 yards is simple.

My Smith and Wesson 642, well not as well. I keep good groups at 7 yards, but it gets difficult after 10.
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Old March 10, 2015, 04:25 PM   #17
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i would encourage you to seek out and join your local IDPA club. shoot some matches. it's fun, you'll get to shoot your favorite pistol at targets at varying ranges from various positions, including from cover, all under the pressure of a time clock. i've gotten much better doing this.
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Old March 10, 2015, 05:51 PM   #18
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About the same for me. Depends on the sights and trigger. I've had good results with my SW1911 sub-compact so far.

Note: this is slow fire and not rapid.
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Old March 10, 2015, 06:48 PM   #19
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Welcome to TFL,

first don't expect top-notch accuracy from the outset.

Just get various shooting routines: e.g., Bullseye, Bowling pins (very humbling experience) and just old-fashion "plinking".

In other words, get to know your firearm and how it handles.

As your progress, your accuracy will improve.

As far a "quick draw" keep it slow and concentrate of handling.
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Old March 10, 2015, 08:49 PM   #20
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I carry my 1911 because I can shoot it best, even better than my duty weapon.
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Old March 10, 2015, 10:25 PM   #21
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I take an accuracy hit with my carry gun, but it's not too bad. It will still group 12 rounds into less than 5" at 25 yards if I'm really taking my time and concentrating on the sights.

But I didn't go super small--it's a Kahr CW9. I can shoot it pretty well--I don't feel like it's much of a handicap.
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Old March 10, 2015, 10:54 PM   #22
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1-dab.

Quote:
i would encourage you to seek out and join your local IDPA club. shoot some matches. it's fun, you'll get to shoot your favorite pistol at targets at varying ranges from various positions, including from cover, all under the pressure of a time clock. i've gotten much better doing this.
I do that with a Glock 19, same one I carry.

Works well.
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Old March 10, 2015, 11:06 PM   #23
Marty8613
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What is it with Glock folks?
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Old March 11, 2015, 12:00 AM   #24
BornToLooze
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Slow fire:



Rapid fire:

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Old March 11, 2015, 11:28 AM   #25
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Was up at the range yesterday with my carry gun. Here's a link to what the afternoon looked like (including target pictures): Practice Time. Short answer to your question is that you can achieve excellent accuracy with a carry gun -- as long as you practice, and as long as you practice the right things.

Back when I was editing CCM, Karl Rehn wrote an excellent article titled, "Is a Pocket Gun Enough?" In it, he discussed many of the common experiences people have with little guns and some of the concerns people express about them (caliber, accuracy, capacity, shootability). It's worth reading in its entirety, but one of the more fascinating things he did was that he ran a bunch of people through the same shooting test. Each person took the test twice: once with a full-size gun, and once with a pocket pistol.

He tested three groups of people:
  • new or inexperienced shooters
  • intermediate shooters who had taken classes
  • highly skilled shooters
The higher the score the person shot on the test, the better they did.

What Rehn found was that shooters who were not highly skilled -- this would include new shooters, inexperienced shooters, and shooters who had taken no classes other than the basic carry permit class -- gave up a LOT of skill when they moved to smaller guns. He also found that good shooters could move down to the small guns with very little, or no, loss of skill.

Here's the data:



Note that the trained shooters did twice as well on the skills test as the untrained ones. It wasn't a minor difference.

Bottom line is, learn to be a good shooter. This includes taking professional training classes that help you build your gunhandling skills to the point of automaticity. Then you can choose the most convenient gun to carry without giving up anything on the achievement side of the bargain.

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