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Old March 31, 2006, 07:32 AM   #1
renaissance7697
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crimp and .44 Rem Magnum

crimp and .44 Rem Magnum

.44 Rem Magnum
240 grain Magnatech Semi-Jacketet Soft Flat Point
1.600 OAL
11 grains HP-38
Out of a Ruger Redhawk w Leupold scope
25 Yards Bench Rest
For Accuracy

To Crimp or Not????

Just loaded a batch of 50
Sized....and... Flared just enough to allow easy bullet starting
Used a combination Seat / Crimp (Lee)
Had crimp portion set just barely enough to return flared case back to sized diameter
No visible "crimp = case mouth turning into cannenlure {sp?}"
( They Fell in and out of cartridge Max Gauge )

Pushed seated bullet HARD against bench
It did NOT move

Is this enough ??
Literature usually says to "Crimp" ......firmly even ...

What to do?
Crimp or not ?
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Old March 31, 2006, 10:47 AM   #2
Edward429451
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I always crimp revolver rounds. I use 30 lbs on a scale to test for setback and it's never let me down. Some people may say crimping degrades accuracy, others say it helps accuracy because it helps consistent ignition...

I'm more worried about the bullet moving than I am ultimate accuracy at handgun ranges. You could try it both ways, crimped/uncrimped and chrony the loads to see how much avg deviation you get and if the uncrimped rounds move under recoil (fire 5 and check the last one for length.)

If you are loading for a single shot (Contender or similar), you probably wouldn't need to crimp, unless you got inconsistent ignition. Whatever you do, do it the same way each time for all rounds (Don't work up a load with uncrimped rounds and then decide to add a crimp later unless you reduce and start over)

Good luck.

Whatcha shooting them in?
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Old March 31, 2006, 11:41 AM   #3
Rivers
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You should definitely roll-crimp into the cannelure with a .44 mag.
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Old March 31, 2006, 11:51 AM   #4
AlaskaMike
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With that powder the only purpose for crimping would be to prevent bullet pull from the recoil, so I think I would do a very light one. A redhawk with a scope is pretty heavy, so I doubt you'd have to worry much about it.

Mike
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Old March 31, 2006, 01:36 PM   #5
kingudaroad
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Take your calipers to the range. Load up 6 rounds. Shoot 5 rounds. Take the last round out and measure it. If it is still 1.600 then your good. If it is longer than that you need more crimp.

Kinda what Edward said.
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Old March 31, 2006, 01:59 PM   #6
caz223
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If you run blue dot or slower, you'd need a FIRM crimp.
With HP-38, you just need enough to keep the bullets from falling out.
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Old March 31, 2006, 07:29 PM   #7
ConRich
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I use the same method of testing as Kingudaroad and have found that the bullets will move if not crimped enough. How much is enough ? You will have to keep increasing the crimp untill you get to that point where their is no movement of the projectile in that last round.

Rich
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Old April 1, 2006, 12:37 PM   #8
renaissance7697
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They DO move under recoil !

Tried the;
"measure OAL on 6 "
Load 6
Fire 4
Re-Measure OAL on remaining two.

They DID Move
Not near enough to lock up the Redhawk
but enough to make me decide to Roll Crimp.
Now the question is "How Much Crimp"?
"Firm" is not enough of an answer.

I took a Sized Case
Measured the Inside Diameter
Adjusted my Lee FCD so that it decreased the ID by .01 inch.
Crimping with the
FCD adjusted as above and crimping on a bullet
I can just barely "feel" the roll
( the "edge is rolled off of the case rim)
but not quite "See" it.

Tried to "Measure" the decrease in case Outside Diameter
at the Roll Crimp, but couldn't do it reliably.
Caliper kept sliding off.

Do you all think the .01 change in Inside diameter
(without a bullet)
of the case should yeild a "sufficient" crimp?

Guess the only way to tell is fire another 4 and
look for an increase in OAL of the remaining.

How would YOU "quantify" a "Light/Medium/Heavy crimp" anyhow?
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Old April 1, 2006, 01:21 PM   #9
Edward429451
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Measuring the crimp is a pita as you found out. Most of the time I do it visually. It's just a gotta get a feel for it thing with me. Compare your crimp with a factory crimp at first and later you wont need to refrence a factory round.

For heavy loads I crimp to the bottom of the cannelure. You can see it if you look close.

I crimp in seperate step from bullet seating.
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Old April 1, 2006, 01:22 PM   #10
kingudaroad
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A good magnifying glass will let you see if you are gently rolling the crimp or smashing the edge of the case mouth against the cannelure. My heavy crimps have a little bit of smash.

I can really tell from the fired case when I can see the cannelure marks imbedded on the inside of the case mouth.

Probably doesn't do much for brass life I'm afraid.

H110 is the only powder I use that needs that much crimp BTW.
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Old April 1, 2006, 07:51 PM   #11
MADISON
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Cromp 44 Mag or not

I do and I would if I were you.

Do I have ENOUGH CRIPM?
By the book...
1. Find a good hard wood serface.
2. Take one of your reloads, place your thumb on the rear of the cartridge case.
3. Try to push the bullet through the hard wood serface.
4. If the bullet does not move, you have enough crimp.
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Old April 2, 2006, 04:41 PM   #12
renaissance7697
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4 Madison and others

I tried the "Push the bullet head against a hard wood bench" thing
the very first time ( without crimping - just removing the flare )
The bullet did NOT move.
Built 50.

But when I:
a. Measured one
b. Inserted in the Redhawk with five others
c Fired the other five, then
d Measured it again.
It had pulled out ~.006

I then set my Lee FCD to where it would reduce the inside diameter of
the case mouth of a sized case .001 (without a bullet).
Went back and Crimped the remaining.

Repeated the test.

The bullet in the measured Cartridge STILL pulled out.
Enduring the recoil of the fired five, increased the OAL of the measured
cartridge from 1.604 to 1.614

Firing five more increased the OAL of the same cartridge
from the 1.614 to 1.624.

Obviously crimping .001 was not enough.

How much IS enough ?
Obviously the answer is "When The Bullets stop pulling out"

How much might that be ??
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Old April 2, 2006, 07:45 PM   #13
Ammo Junky
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I have found that even crimped bullets move in mag revolvers. The bullet will move out of the case untill the crimp bottoms in the base end of the canalure. Don't count a crimp too light untill the bearing surface is starting to show past the case mouth. I like to load six rnds, shoot five, load five more, shoot the second five, then check the bullet after ridding in the cylinder for 10 shots. I do belive crimp frequently degrades accuracy. It is sometimes a necessary evil. It seems accuracy and depenability are frequently a compramise. I have loaded .480 ruger with and without a crimp. 325gr bullet 26.5 H110. Afte five shots the uncrimped bullet slid 1/8" or so. This caused no change in accuracy or reliability or over the crono. That said, I would not tolerate that in an "important" load. Ren, I feel for your trying to minamise crimp, but I don't think .001" will even be noticed by the bullet.

Now the question is "How Much Crimp"?
"Firm" is not enough of an answer.


I here ya, When I started loading a few yrs a go, I couldn't get a straight answer from anyone. I even called bullet and powder companies with out a straight answer. Here is what I wish somone would have told me. On all the dies I have used. with the ram at the top of the stroke, run the crimp die down to where it touches the mouth of a loaded rd, 1/4 turn is the min I have seen any crimp from, 1/2 turn is usualy max and frequently too much. 3/8 turn gives the proper roll crimp for most revolvers most of the time. If you over bell your cases add 1/8 turn. With taper crimp dies I have found 1/16 to 1/4 turn max does the job. The instructions that come with most dies suggest way way way to much crimp. For the record I no longer crimp anything but mag revolver bullets. bolt rifle, semi auto rifle, semi auto handgun, lever action no crimp, no need. I will say for semi-autos you might have to taper crimp ( un bell ) some if you go crazy with the belling die.
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Old April 4, 2006, 08:34 AM   #14
TFB62
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Crimp and the 44

You must crimp 44's tightly for most of the slower burning powders to work correctly. The process described by shooting and measuring to see if bullets are pulling is a good one. You also need to full length resize fired cases to increase bullet pull. I have a Lyman M die that has the belling and expanding portion sanded down to increase bullet pull.

Another item of note is that crimp is inconsistent if cases are not of exact length (trim them)

Following these proceedures, using H110 or 296 with mag primers will result in very accurate bullets (once a recipe is determined to shoot in YOUR gun)

Good Luck
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Old April 4, 2006, 12:02 PM   #15
AlaskaMike
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Um... guys, I'm not sure some of you read the original post completely. Advice to firmly crimp .44 mag loads when using slow powders like H110 and 296 is good stuff, but he's not loading H110, 296, or even Blue Dot--he's loading HP-38 which is a relatively fast powder, and not even remotely close to H110, 296 or Blue Dot in behavior. Strong crimps are necessary with the slow powders to help them ignite and get a good, consistent burn, as well as to prevent bullet pull. Since he's making light loads using a fast powder, he doesn't need the same crimp--only that which is necessary to prevent bullet pull. The question is, how much crimp to prevent that bullet pull?

Renaissance, I guess I would suggest at this point that you experiment with progressively stronger crimps to discover what it'll take to keep the bullets in place.

Mike
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