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Old March 27, 2006, 01:25 AM   #1
riverkeeper
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The pendulm and scythe

I like it.

In order to provide a place on TFL for superficially or non-firearms related stuff you might consider starting a new forum called:

'This Ain't Shooting"

It might also be more grief than you want.
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Old March 27, 2006, 06:47 AM   #2
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I'm torn by it. On one hand it would reduce the dumb stuff and thats good. I just fear that it will be taken to far and all scenarios or other similar posts will be removed simply because the moderator doesn't like them. A post that I consider great can be deemed as not worthy and not only get pulled but be the first warning of your getting banned. It seems that locking or removing the dumb ones or better yet ignoring them would be more American.
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Old March 27, 2006, 10:55 AM   #3
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3 Gun...I hear you, but

the 'most' American Way is for those who pay the price (it ain't free here) to call the tune.

While the new sheriff in town is talking tough right now, I'd bet he's a reasonable guy...give it a chance.
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Old March 27, 2006, 11:24 AM   #4
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Every member of TFL knows exactly what kind of topics/posts will fall victim to the scythe. It's a welcome and long overdue change, in my opinion that is.

As of late, some topics/posts were down right embarrassing. This forum in particular became a complete joke to me, though I'd still browse occasionally.

Rather than a bunch of average Joe's applying video-game science, to real life -- maybe this change will open the door for something a bit more... shall we say, intelligent.

Hopefully it will return to a forum with a little more pragmatism containing useful information – instead of a test site for cheesy action sequences.

Regards.
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Old March 27, 2006, 11:33 AM   #5
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I think the reason for his sticky is that some of the posts on T&T are way out there as far as tactics or training are concerned. I agree with tactics being an art and as such, everyone will have their likes and dislikes. I think a new section called Scenarios would eliminate alot of the exaggerated, hypothetical situations created in T&T.

While paying/donating members have made a financial contribution, almost everyone makes a contribution in there own way. There are always going to be trolls and "mall ninjas." But, if security is tightened down so much that the audience is afraid to post for fear of being banned, then why come to the forum at all?

There are a lot of members here that "think" they know what they are talking about and there are a lot of members that actually know what they are talking about hence, the problem with T&T. Why not give the first group an area to "let their hair down" without the fear of being banned. An area to post the wild and crazy "...taking sniper fire in the trauma plate..." scenarios and if you want a good laugh or want to give your advice/opinion, you go in and do so.

Having said that, I also understand the risks of TFL being used in media propoganda with some of the posts that I am sure that section would generate. Its a delicate balancing act...
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Old March 27, 2006, 11:51 AM   #6
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I second that idea of having a "Senarios" only section. It's fun and entertaining and that's generally what I read it for. I think the moderators wanted to see more of this:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=204170

and less or none of this:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=205188
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Old March 27, 2006, 04:57 PM   #7
KC135
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Fresh air

Thanks Erick.

Scenarios should have an objective and teach something, if they do not, they are a waste of bandwidth. The MUST be well written.

The site where I moderate, does not allow scenarios, because of the silliness they seem to cause.

Glad to see you are back.
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Old March 27, 2006, 05:53 PM   #8
threegun
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Quote:
But, if security is tightened down so much that the audience is afraid to post for fear of being banned, then why come to the forum at all?
Amen. Also if two people disagree and the moderator agrees with one side, is the others post going to get canned and poster banned? The tactics that I learned which are correct and proper to me might be considered taboo to the moderator. Heck Erick and I have disagreed about the ability to learn from books and video's, about the ability to be tactically proficient without formal training, ect. Is this disagreement going to get me banned should I post something else he considers wrong? I hope my fears are unfounded....we shall see.
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Old March 27, 2006, 06:35 PM   #9
Capt Charlie
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Quote:
Is this disagreement going to get me banned should I post something else he considers wrong? I hope my fears are unfounded....we shall see.
Threegun, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a healthy debate, and from what I've seen of your posts, you don't have much to worry about. This isn't, and won't become, a matter of banning someone just because we don't agree with the poster.

Now if you post total BS, and attempt to pass it off as truth, especially when it's likely to get someone hurt, prepare for an accounting.

Folks, this isn't brain surgery. Remember Rich's declaration of war on illiterate posts? How many people have you seen banned since? A few of the worst offenders, whose numbers remain in the single digits (so far). But what we DID see was an immediate improvement in the grammatical content of most posts.

You will also note that since the posting of Erick's sticky, the quality of material here has already improved.

The rules are pretty simple. Along with the forum rules that have always been in effect, we ask that you discuss serious, real life material, that is related to defensive tactics and training. Arguments, so long as they have at least some merit, and remain respectful, are not only permitted, but encouraged, so long as the debate remains healthy and productive. If you're still not sure of what we want, take Erick's advice and go to the very first pages of this forum from 1998-99. You'll note that there are no "mall ninja" threads.

I personally, would MUCH rather read Mas Ayoob's or Louis Awerbuck's take on surviving an armed encounter in a dark alley, than I would threads on mutant ninja zombies storming the local mall. I think most of you would as well, but Mas, Louis and others aren't going to frequent this forum as long as some of the posters treat it as though it's an online version of Romper Room.
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Old March 28, 2006, 05:41 AM   #10
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Thanks Capt.
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Old March 28, 2006, 08:08 PM   #11
KC135
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Capt Charlie---well said.
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Old March 29, 2006, 04:55 AM   #12
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I'm in support of the changes made to this forum. I access this forum to look for advice and some new ideas in relation to my training committments. Being both a student and also a teacher, I have seen and heard a lot of crazy stunts that some people get away with. Some come out with very serious injuries during their training. I've been lucky enough to have my head screwed on and encounter difficult scenarios in a training environment, so out on the street or in the class room - I know whats right and wrong.

I personally think that the moderation of this forum long term will serve a very important purpose. This site is accessed by a lot of outstanding professionals, but also a lot of amatuers who are new to the experience. A forum can be very influential in relation to training methods. One of my favourite morals is "What works for some, doesn't always work for others."
This means that a technique or skill in trained hands can be very valuable. The same technique in the untrained hand could have deadly results.
A moderation of tactics that are clearly perceived as dangerous or not commonly tested should not be allowed to influence the training of new shooters. When they get more experience and know the ins and outs of the techniques, then you may consider trying these techniques at your own risk. Own risk.... a very broad statement. Me personally... if its dangerous I'm not going to do it. I might know how to do it and know how to do it well.... but what's the point of putting myself or others in danger intentionally??

I might not be responsible for the content in a forum which is locked out, but thats no problem - I would just continue conversation via private message. Problem fixed.

Serveral other forums I have participated in have very similar standards. I would expect this level of maturity from this area of interest. We belong to a very unique group, who stand up against individuals who will go to extreme lengths to take away our rightful possessions.
Stupidity and immaturity really affect sites like this, which can be accessed by the prying eyes of the general public and create a lot of different impressions in the minds of the anti-gun individuals, who will never understand.

Set a standard and adhere to it!

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Old March 29, 2006, 10:57 AM   #13
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The newbie perspective...

I'm new to this sport of shooting and really look to the web and fellow shooters for tips on becoming a better shot. I've found quite a bit of that in the TnT forum and really appreciate it. For me, the ammo uses up most of my 'allowance' and doesn't leave much for classes (but I'm saving up). I started shooting with an IDPA club, and that has opened my eyes to the scenario's issue. In my very new opinion (theres the disclaimer) the scenarios here are somewhat amusing, but not very useful to me. Thinking up a scenario that could be duplicated in a match might be nice, but shooting it is nothing like reading about it. I thought about many scenarios before shooting that first match and thought I had an idea of what I might do, but once the timer buzzed all that was forgotten and my shots went everywhere (well, mostly into the targets anyways). So if it's a scenario we can set up and shoot, great. If its about facing down an M1 Abrams with a Sig Mosquito...oh crap lets not start...

FWIW I agree that a seperate forum for the scenarios would be nice. When I look to TnT I look for things like range drills, grip and stance, basicly how to shoot a gun. Until i get some cash saved up (or find a gun school with a day spa), I'm relying on you guys to help me improve.

Also, a note about spelling and grammer-- this forum's text entry page doesn't always display correctly on a mac, making it impossible to see what you're typing as you type it, and the cursor appears in the wrong spot. Makes me do alot of double letters and misspellings when I'm at home.

Thanks for all the good tips and advice!
-Zeke
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Old March 29, 2006, 11:11 AM   #14
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Wow...this one should be as heated as any caliber war!! I for one and glad that there has been some sort of warning or admonishment, I was getting a little tired of coming to TFL and only seeing "scenarios" or "caliber war" being newly posted...so, I chose not to read or respond to the majority, thus my time spent here at TFL was getting shorter and shorter. Instead of coming to learn something about guns and ammo, it seemed like just a constant barrage of in-escapable scenarios that really seemed to push people to take a life...of course in the defense of others or themselves, it was getting as old as 9mm vs. .45. I would like to see a Scenario only area, it would clean up all the other boards. Just my opinion.
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Old March 29, 2006, 11:28 AM   #15
Glenn E. Meyer
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If one wanted a scenario section - it could be moderated such that the post is prescreened for those that offered valuable insights and weren't repetitious. Of course, that's a lot of work for moderators. Just a thought.

Or - if you subscribe to SWAT, you get to post 2 silly scenarios a year.
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Old March 29, 2006, 04:49 PM   #16
David Armstrong
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Quote:
Heck Erick and I have disagreed about the ability to learn from books and video's, about the ability to be tactically proficient without formal training, ect.
Heck, that's not just you and Erick, that is you and virtually every experienced, well-trained person that has taken the time to comment on the idea. Maybe that is the key---if one cannot separate their opinion from recognized facts, or when fantasy begins to be used in place of or at the expense of reality, then some controls need to be applied.
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Old March 29, 2006, 05:10 PM   #17
threegun
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Or perhaps Mr. Armstrong isn't capable of learning from watching and reading. Perhaps he needs hands on instruction. I don't Mr. Armstrong. Unless you want to come down and personally evaluate my tactical skill level, since your credentials are so great, please leave me alone.

BTW, If you took the time to read my post on whether videos and books are useful, you would see that even Erick said

Quote:
Depends on who produced / presented them.

Personal attacks are taboo here yet you continue to fuel the fires. I have asked you nicely to leave me alone.
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Old March 29, 2006, 05:24 PM   #18
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Personal attacks are taboo here yet you continue to fuel the fires.
You made a comment regarding training. I clarified that comment by expanding it to be more accurate, as I felt the "you vs. Erick" did not accurately describe the issue. I'm sorry if you feel that constitutes a personal attack or fueling any fires, but I would suggest it is no more an attack on you than your statement would be considered an attack on Erick.
Quote:
I have asked you nicely to leave me alone.
Again, sorry if it bothers you to have someone point out facts that disagree with your preconcieved notions and opinions. I think that is the point of the whole issue here, that wild ideas and opinions should be controlled in favor of more realism and validity in scenarios. If one wishes to participate in public forums it is somewhat unreasonable to expect to be left alone.
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Old March 29, 2006, 05:39 PM   #19
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Well, this started out as a good feedback thread, but it didn't take long to deteriorate. I don't think there's much more of a positive nature to be gained here, and if closing it is what it takes to stop the bickering, so be it.

Closed.
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