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Old March 25, 2006, 10:07 PM   #1
Guntec
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Offense vs. Defense - Do you fire on the move or go for accuracy?

I've always wondered about this. Many situations, if both you and the bad guy have guns pointed at each other, chances are that as one side fires, the other side woud return fire. No matter who fired fired, both side has a fair chance for hits. Or even if the BG became wounded, he can continue to fire at your direction as you trade shots.

So for the sake of protecting yourself and trying to avoid getting hit, should you fire but with an emphasis on movement (laterally, diagnally, etc)? This way there's less of a chance for BG's shots to hit. Or should you focus on trying to hit the BG first, and worry less about constant movement to avoid getting hit.
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Old March 25, 2006, 11:08 PM   #2
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Given a choice, I am a proponent of diagonal movement away from the attacker. This gives you the lateral movement you need, but also the distance as well. More importantly though, the movement should be towards cover or escape.

I would not use a handgun to lay down suppressive fire unless I had a large capacity gun with extra magazines. The only instance I can recall that this was necessary and worked well was Travis Neel saving Deputy Frank Flores in Houston in 1994. Neel was going to the range and had multiple loaded magazines for his CZ in his truck. He still almost ran out of ammo, but he fought as he had trained in the military for Korea.

At any rate, in a life or death situation, I would not shoot wildly. If I could not be reasonably certain of good solid hits, I would use movement and cover to avoid getting shot and set up an ambush if necessary so i could increase my survival chances with limited ammo. A cylinder of .38 special or even two magazines of .45ACP can be used up very quickly if a person is using it just to suppress the attacker's fire.

As a civilian, my goal is to survive the attack with my life, not take down my attacker. Taking down the attacker is a bonus for the civilian, not a necessity. This gives the civilian a huge advantage over the LEO in this type of encounter, if the civilian will just take it.
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Old March 26, 2006, 01:02 AM   #3
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A moving target is harder to hit, especially when the BG is concerned about getting hit himself. Always seek cover if the situation permits, and you only move as fast as you can shoot if you're going to...well...shoot on the move.

However, dynamic shooting is something that you must practice EXTENSIVELY. It's a bit different than stationary shooting.
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Old March 26, 2006, 05:43 AM   #4
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I would retreat while firing deliberate accurate shots while seeking cover no matter what direction. I want duress on my opponent(firing at him), distance, and cover. If lateral movement is the quickest way to cover then movement will be lateral, if straight back is fastest so be it. If you decide to retreat while firing make sure to keep a solid shooting platform.
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Old March 26, 2006, 07:54 AM   #5
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Fluid Situational Response

----------------------------------------

In the world of the gun there are two types of responses to a life threatening event. The first and most popular is the conditioned response. A few examples of conditioned responses would be stand and deliver, the controlled pair, and to always make use of your sights. These are responses that we train into ourselves with the hope that when the SHTF we will default to our training and this programming will save the day.

While I was learning the Modern Techniques, (MT) I constantly questioned the logic behind many of the conditioned responses. To me, there was very little common sense attached to these conditioned responses. Even as a newbie I knew that I would never fight in this manner. It went away from the logic of all of my past experiences. As I trained and trained in the MT, I always held on to the realization the MT's were just going to be a foundation, a foundation that I built my fighting style on top of.

As I progressed, I began to incorporate what I thought a common sense fighting style would entail. I began to seek out people that thought as I did. My observations were confirmed again and again by highly respected "been there done that" guys, most notably a Federal Agent that went under the handle 7677.He would write posts of his real world experience that coincided with my thoughts and observations As my suspicions were verified, my training progressed into an area that very few people have explored. I began to embrace the concept of natural human response.

As I participated in and witnessed FOF encounters, it became very clear that the vast majority of the people that trained on a regular basis, cast aside their training when the action was fast and close. They would default to their natural human response. They solved problems at a sub-conscious level. I witnessed many people doing things that they had never been trained to do. After the encounter I would talk to them about their response. The majority actually did not know what they had done to solve the problem. As I told them what they did, they would often look at me in disbelief that they reacted in that manner. This furthered my interest in the subject, which lead me to my next level of enlightenment.

I call this level Fluid Situational Response. The concept is that you can incorporate your natural human response and your conditioned response and use them fluidly in the appropriate situation all along, what 7677 calls the fighting continuum. I know some of you will say that this does not stay within the KISS (keep it simple stupid) principle, or that it does not conform to Hicks law (the more options you have, the longer it will take to access an option). IMHO this is just not so. Hicks law applies to conditioned responses, that is why you should have a mastery of a few essential techniques. Hicks law does not apply to natural human response. There is no lag time to access these responses. Your body will choose the solution to the problem in a microsecond at a subconscious level. Accepting this to be fact opens up a world that very few have explored.

My training is now geared to my Fluid Situational Response. The response is dictated by time, distance, and where you find yourself in the reactionary curve. The position on the reactionary curve is the most important factor to your response. This is where natural human response of "fight or flight" takes over. IMHO you should embrace the "fight or flight" response and train within that response. One thing to keep in mind, when it comes to firearms "fight or flight" is also "fight and flight." The direction you move, the speed of your movement, the necessary visual input to maneuver and to comprehend the problem, the necessary visual input needed to make the hits, and the necessary visual input to recognize the situational changes are all dependent on your position on the reactionary curve inside of the 7677 fight continuum.

There is no doubt that at certain distances, going hands on before you access your handgun is the very best response. But for now, let's take a look at responses that are outside of hand to hand ranges.

If you have succeeded in being ahead in the reactionary curve due to awareness, deception, distraction, or metsubishi (throw something in the face of your adversary) you are in a dominant position. Conditioned responses are excellent for this situation. Stand and deliver, sighted fire, aggressively advancing to your 12:00 are all appropriate responses.

If you find yourself even in the reactionary curve, your response will have to be different. Conditioned responses may not get the job done as well as natural human response. The fight and flight response will kick in and you will want to get out of the kill zone. Move as you draw, put hits on the adversary as soon as you can using threat focused skills, work towards getting inside of the adversaries OODA loop by your movement, making hits, and acquiring his flank. Once you have turned the reactionary curve in your favor, embrace your fluid situational response and shift from a reactionary position to the dominant position and eliminate the threat.

If you find yourself well behind the reactionary curve, your response will have to change even more. A conditioned response could be suicide, your best hope is a natural human response. Brownies startle response can be use to your advantage and you must train to be comfortable within your startle response. Flight overrides fight, because you must survive the initial contact so that you can get into the fight. Explode out of the kill zone, move to cover if near or access the weapon on the sprint, put hits on the adversary using threat focus skills, look to turn the tide, if the situation changes, flow into the next appropriate response.

Once you embrace your Fluid Situational Response you will go places that you never thought were possible, Where your mind is the weapon and the gun is just an extension of your mind, and everything flows with no conscious thought.

The inevitable question arises, "what is more important, to get the hits or to not get hit?" The Fluid Situational Response answers that question. When you are ahead of the reactionary curve, it is more important to get the hits. You are in the dominate position....ELIMINATE THE THREAT! If you are even on the reactionary curve the importance are equal. Use a balance of speed (of movement) and accuracy to solve the problem. If you are behind in the reactionary curve it is more important to not get hit. Get out of the kill zone by "thinking move first." Sprint to cover if it is near or access your handgun on the sprint and put hits on your adversary. Always look to get inside of the adversaries OODA loop and progress through your Fluid Situational Response until you are either dominating the confrontation or have put yourself in the position to terminate the confrontation.

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Old March 26, 2006, 10:48 AM   #6
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Movement, especially lateral movement is huge

Just like the good guys, the bad guys will often tunnel in on the target to the point where they are often shooting where you used to be

Also, by forcing them to move their body/feet you screw with their aim

Supressive fire has little/no place in defensive use of the handgun

Shoot for the center of whatever target they give you

Besides...any of your shots that miss can be considered supressive fire
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Old March 26, 2006, 11:27 AM   #7
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I second that supressive fire theory. Wasting shots could brind drastic results. I pretty much figure that my attacker will have some sort of 9mm with atleast 15 rounds. Best case senario for me with my 5 shot snub and two speedloaders is I have the same number of shots but am disadvantaged by two reloads. Distance and cover are my main objectives. If my attacker figures out what I am using he may exploit this. By seeking distance and cover I can force him to expose himself if he chooses to pursue me. I feel that in a defensive situation cover is better than firepower. Seeking cover also gives me the opportunity to use the good old cell phone.
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Old March 26, 2006, 01:19 PM   #8
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Unpredictable movement is extremely important in defending against a handgun attack, but moving and firing (accurately) can be difficult and requires a lot of practice. I personally find move & shoot exercises to be one of the most trying of drills.

You'll find yourself almost duck-walking, which takes a lot of strength. Spend several hours on this & you'll find your muscles protesting loudly the next day .

But the real problem to work on is moving towards your weak side (away from your gun hand). Without practice, you'll quickly find yourself side-stepping (and tripping ), while firing with much reduced accuracy.

Try this drill: Post 4 silhouette targets, side by side in a straight line, with about 8 feet between targets. With your weapon in your strong side hand, walk parallel to the targets at the 10 yard line, and while walking, double tap each target. Walk past the 4th target, insert new mag, do an about face, and repeat in the opposite direction, with your weapon still in your strong hand.

You'll find that walking towards your strong side while firing is relatively easy, but the return trip will have you doing a dance that Fred Astaire would be proud of .

Now try the same drill, but switch the weapon to your weak hand on the return trip. It's much easier, but if you haven't practiced weak hand shooting?......

A person practiced in both strong hand and weak hand shooting won't have much trouble with this, but those that aren't will find this difficult. If anyone has any doubts on the importance of weak hand shooting, this drill will disperse them forever.
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Old March 26, 2006, 04:04 PM   #9
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Would you advise advancing on your adversary if it made cover more available??

What if you a vehicle between the two of you, but he was closer to the car than you were? WOud you try to force him from the cover to take it as your own if other cover wasn't readily around?

What do you consider suppressive fire? Accurate shots meant to keep him down as you carefully get to cover or firing as fast as you can into his general area while running as fast as you can?

To me; walking backwards presents the danger of falling over something and possibly losing sight with the BG, or giving him a chance to take a shot at you when you are still and vulnerable. Also, although it shouldn't happen, you could lose your weapon if you were to fall.
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Old March 26, 2006, 04:31 PM   #10
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If possible move in the direction of his strong side. That is if he's right handed move to his RIGHT, your left. It's harder for him to hit you in that direction..
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Old March 26, 2006, 11:11 PM   #11
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You guys are getting distracted and are starting to "what if" this to death. You move if it makes sense to move. How do you know when it makes sense to move?...well, if standing still feels really stupid, then you know it's time to move.
If a covered position is in front of you and it makes sense to move in that direction, then it makes sense to move in that direction. To analyze the merits of advancing to cover vs. moving laterally to cover is ridiculous.

Suppressive fire are any rounds sent in the direction of your target with the intent of preventing him from leveraging effective fires against you. Since we're mostly talking about CCW here, it doesn't make sense to use any round for anything other than putting a hole in someone, because the chances that you are carrying enough ammo to make "suppressive fires" effective are pretty slim.
I don't know about most of you, but I carry two 6 round mags, and I'm not going to waste any rounds with poorly aimed shots into the "general area" in the hopes of keeping his head down. That time is better spent seeking cover and those rounds are more valuable in your magazine because you have no idea how long you're in this for.
Another thing about suppressive fires that needs to be considered is that it's only effective if it's well-aimed and is only used to cover movement -- and if you're taking well aimed shots from your one carry pistol that pretty much makes the entire argument moot.

I don't know how many people here have had the opportunity to leverage "suppressive fires" against a target to keep them from shooting at you while you move, but I can tell you that you're not going to do it with a pistol in the hasty seconds after you've identified that your life is in danger...all it's going to be is a waste of valuable rounds and something that you have to explain later when five of your shots went through occupied cars across the street.

This is tactics and training, so please let's put some thought into it.

This is one of those discussions that would be better if it were geared towards how one could train himself/herself to react to said situation rather than "what's the correct answer". Anyone who understands tactics knows that the only right answer is the one that lets you walk away alive.
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Old March 26, 2006, 11:24 PM   #12
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Movement? Of course

Now, I realize everything is situational dependant. It all depends on a thousand and one variables. +1 if you're not LEO or military on popping smoke and bugging out if possible. Some dude trying to steal $100 from a conveniance store register is not worth getting in a firefight over, even if you know you could drop the punk. I don't really want to hurt anyone unless it's in defense of myself or other innocent people. This being said, the rest of my post is geared more for the advance to detain/destroy the threat. Mainly because that's what I have been trained to do (and have done too often already).

Remember this golden rule. Fire without movement is a waste of ammo, movement without fire is suicide. This is an old adage that usually applies to squad-level and up infantry tactics, but can even apply to one man advancing.

Envision this. You're a bad guy, you shoot at someone and they curl up behind cover. You can advance and you know you have scared the crap out of this guy. Now, picture being a bad guy and all of a sudden your "target" starts firing back as he advances. Approach this with an open mind.

I'm not saying suicide rushes, and if there is cover available you most certainly may utilize it to your advantage (covered position, fire while pre-selecting next covered position, move to next covered postion, fire while...). Force and violence of action that is controlled and negated to be effective (meaning you're actually hitting the guy or hitting so close that he needs a fresh pair of underwear) is your most powerful tool if you go head to head when lives are at stake.

Now, how to move. As capt charlie said, lateral movement to your weak side is bad juju. You cannot shoot effectively. Also mentioned is the fact that shooting on the move is one of the most difficult drills there is, thus requiring much practice. And know this, it is easier to hit a moving target when you're static than to hit a static target when you're dynamic. Practice, practice, practice. 10 to 1 says the bad guy hasn't practiced dynamic shooting enough to be effective. The shock and awe effect of violence of action will do you alot of good if you have practiced enough to actually fire effective dynamically.

Now, about the fluid movement response or whatever it's called. Dude, you lost me when you said everyone ditches IA drills (immediate action) as soon as the shtf. Have you ever been shot at? I have, and IA drills for hours at a time has seemed more and more like a good idea ever sense. You practice your fluid response stuff, and I'll keep taking my squad thru mout town at lejeune with sim rounds. Come find me sometime and we'll test each others theory with sims. Still not the real thing, but as close as it gets. Go with your IA drills and practice with dynamic shooting.
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Old March 26, 2006, 11:32 PM   #13
Sweatnbullets
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Dude, you lost me when you said everyone ditches IA drills (immediate action) as soon as the shtf.
I obviously lost you well before this because nowhere in my post does it say "everyone ditches IA drills."

You may want to actually read what is actually written before you jump to conclusions.
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Old March 26, 2006, 11:51 PM   #14
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"everyone ditches IA drills" = short way of saying this...

"As I participated in and witnessed FOF encounters, it became very clear that the vast majority of the people that trained on a regular basis, cast aside their training when the action was fast and close."

I fully read your post, and don't get me wrong, there is obviously common sense. If someone is shooting at you before you can present your weapon then I probably wouldn't just stand there while I draw/get shot at/die.

Not trying to ridicule you brother, and sorry if it came off that way. I'm just saying that conditioned response (IA dirlls) can mitigate alot of variables. The Marine Corps doesn't make platoons stand on-line doing FTF and mag change drills because it's pretty. It is effective. IA drill for any form of unknown contact? Seek cover, determine where the fire is recieved and have the securtiy element lay down a base of fire while the assault element manuevers to the enemys' flank.

Now, take a squad who has never practiced this IA drill together. Make them patrol thru an urban training enviorement with a couple of aggressors in unknown locations. Give everyone involved sim rounds. Sit and watch how many get painted the first time they do the drill. Repeat process 6 hours a day once weekly in flak and kevlar...

...one week later, same squad. You see if there isn't alot less paint on their cammies than when they first started.
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Old March 27, 2006, 02:32 AM   #15
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gun tec stated,
Quote:
So for the sake of protecting yourself and trying to avoid getting hit, should you fire but with an emphasis on movement (laterally, diagnally, etc)? This way there's less of a chance for BG's shots to hit. Or should you focus on trying to hit the BG first, and worry less about constant movement to avoid getting hit.
Whether or not you are moving really should be obvious. If you are behind cover, then moving to somewhere else will expose you to getting shot and injured/killing since you likely don't have covere during the move.

If you are out in the open, movement will make you a harder target to hit. Here is should be noted that while a gun can be used to defend yourself by stopping the threat (usually the operators of the opposition's guns), but guns are extremely poor protection for stopping incoming rounds.

What about moving off the line? It is a good thing, but many instructors fail to provide much instruction on what to do once off the line.

In more than one class I have had, I had instuctors have me take one side step, draw and fire. In a carbine class, I had an instructor tell us (while we advanced toward targets) to take one step to the side to get off the line of attack, stopping, while bringing the sights up on target and firing a single shot. This was argued to get us out of the line of attack and the stopping gave us a stable shooting platform. It was reasoned that the sidestep would upset the bad guy(s)' OODA loop so much that we would get off the first shot.

A step to the side isn't going to mess up anyone's OODA loop with the possible exception of a person charging you with a knife or charging you with their car and you move out of the way at the very last moment. You have to make the change after the attacker can no longer alter direction.

When it comes to stepping off the line of attack just one step in a gun fight, the OODA loops isn't upset at all and nothing more is required than a slight adjustment to the gun's sighting for the attacker to shoot you. Your opposition will undoubtedly be expecting that one of your options will be to move/flee. So stepping off the line doesn't upset his OODA loop because your tactic is expected. If you want to upset the opposition's OODA loop, then you need to do something completely unexpected. For example, if you can burst into flames on demand, doing it in front of the opposition will undoubtedly catch him off guard, resting OODA.

Once you move off the line of attack, you don't stop there unless you are behind cover, as noted in previous posts.
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Old March 27, 2006, 07:11 AM   #16
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Quote:
movement without fire is suicide
A+.

Oh yeah and don't get caught behind the reactionary curve.

Sweatnbullets, If caught behind the reactionary curve are you suggesting that we turn and run while accessing our weapon?

Quote:
Explode out of the kill zone, move to cover if near or access the weapon on the sprint, put hits on the adversary using threat focus skills,
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Old March 27, 2006, 07:12 PM   #17
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Like the vast majority of folks, I have never been fired upon. However, I believe my first reaction might be to seek cover, and move as quickly as possible away from the source. Of course, ascertaining the proper direction in which to move has got to be a priority.
This is where training comes in. Rather than just trust to extemporaneous thought, knowing in advance what course of action puts the odds more in your favor is a good idea.
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Old March 27, 2006, 09:07 PM   #18
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If you start moving, don't stop until you are behind cover. This was stated before, but I thought it was worth repeating.
With regards to the original question posed in this thread, I try for accuracy while moving if I need to move.
Oh, and another option for moving laterally to the weak hand side is to shoot strong hand only as opposed to weak hand shooting. I like SHO better than weak side shooting, but as always YMMV. I like SHO for shooting from behind a barricade on the weak hand side as well, but that's another topic.

I would suggest getting some training with a course that has a dedicated shooting on the move element or module. The Tri Con shooting on the move module is top notch. It's an entire day dedicated to SOM.
Shooting on the move is a higher skill level than square range shooting. Have a solid foundation with the basics before you try it.
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Old March 27, 2006, 11:43 PM   #19
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Not trying to ridicule you brother, and sorry if it came off that way.
First of all Wheeler, thank you for your service to this country. I can not possibly tell you the amount of respect I have for all of our Marines.

I try to be very careful not to use words like "always, never, everyone, and no one"....you get the idea. When I wrote the Fluid Situational Response I was thinking of the average CCWer or the average LEO. It was not really intended for the military. I see the two as being very different. The CCWer or the cop will usually be in it alone or with very little help. They are also not bound by the duty that they have to a squad. Let's face it, you Marines (God bless you) will lay down your life for another Marine or the squad much quicker than the average Joe. An IA drill for you guys is absolutely the best way to go. An AI is also essential to us average Joe's, but if the situation has us far behind the reactionary curve and we find ourselves in a startled response, we need to be comfortable fighting from that startled response.

Quote:
Sweatnbullets, If caught behind the reactionary curve are you suggesting that we turn and run while accessing our weapon?
We train our students to respond in the direction that makes the most sense. We train our students to run and shoot in every direction except straight to the rear.

When you are behind in the reationary curve that leaves every direction but straight forward and straight to the rear.

Movement should always have a purpose. You would use rearward movement to get to cover, to create distance, or to eventually acquire their flanks. Movement should be fluid, just because you were startled and began to run rearward while shooting, it does not mean you have to keep moving that direction. If there is no cover that direction the rearward run could turn eliptical to acquire their flanks.

I had a private session with a student last weekend. He had never used threat focus shooting before and sure the heck had never accomplished hits while on a full run. He had a lot of Modern Technique training and was very squared away with keeping the gun running and hitting while using his sights.

I taped up his sights and in seven hours and 1250 rounds I had him absolutely confident in every aspect of Threat Focus shooting. He was making 96% of his hits, while at a full run, in every direction (except straight to the rear) at logical distances.

I keep reading on this thread and the other just like it at GT, that making hits on the run takes a lot of practice. I say BS! It does not take a lot of practice, it takes knowledge on how to get it done. This is something that can be learned in one day of training. (if you already have the basic fundamentals and safety down cold.) Once you have recieved that training you will own it for the rest of your life with very little need to practice it on a regular basis.

This is a threat focus skill that relies on your natural abilities. This is something that all of you are already capable of doing. All you need is someone to guide you to the knowledge or what you are all truly physically capable of.

A lot of practice......poppy cock! One day and you will own it.

Back to the question. We teach an explosive move out of the kill zone (in all but one direction) while simultaneously drawing your handgun. Once you have been shown it, you will have it down in a couple of minutes. You will be on target and getting hits within two steps of your run and you will continue to hit as you run through your appropriate response.

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Old March 28, 2006, 06:23 AM   #20
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Sweatnbullets, In this explosive retreat and subsequent fire covered retreat are your students all out running or moving while maintaining a good shooting platform, or both? Without compromising your class curriculum, can you give some details?

I never really trained for getting caught BEHIND the reactionary curve. It seems that running all out while not recommended when things are even or you are ahead in the curve, makes sense when behind in it. Why not run all out while accessing your weapon. It creates distance, makes you harder to hit, and gets you closer to cover. Makes sense.

For those who don't believe that the stress of getting shot at make people miss or even lose simple motor functions read this story.

A highway patrolman was patting down a suspect on the side of the roadway when he felt what he thought was a handgun in the suspects front waistband. The suspect grabbed for the gun and a brief scuffle ensued for it. The suspect pushed the officer away (back wards) and the officer lost his balance and tripped in the soft sand on the shoulder of the road. As he was falling he was going for his service weapon. The suspect turned pulled the Smith and Wesson 9MM pistol and pointed it at the officer, smiling as he pulled the trigger. The gun was on safety and wouldn't fire. The officer now with weapon raised said that when he leveled his pistol on the suspect his facial expression changed to horror. As the officer began shooting and subsequently killing the bad guy, he said the man couldn't manipulate the safety he was so stressed by fire.

Another thing I remember was this officer saying that he turned his own fear into calm by understanding that he was either going to died or get shot. He remembered becoming angry that he allowed this scumbag to kill him. His last act if possible would be to take the scumbag with him. I found a similar mindset helpful while shooting competition. I hope to use his mindset should I ever be forced into a shootout.
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Old March 28, 2006, 09:08 AM   #21
Dwight55
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Three things come to mind in answer to the original question:

1) In the military we were always taught to get some kind of cover if it was at all possible before returning fire. These are the professional gun fighters, . . . and that is what they do.

2) The lawyer a few years ago that was shot at with a revolver by his unhappy client stayed alive by getting behind a tree.

3) Xavier's comment above: "As a civilian, my goal is to survive the attack with my life, not take down my attacker."

May God bless,
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Old March 28, 2006, 09:55 AM   #22
Sweatnbullets
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Quote:
Sweatnbullets, In this explosive retreat and subsequent fire covered retreat are your students all out running or moving while maintaining a good shooting platform, or both? Without compromising your class curriculum, can you give some details?
It is a full run for the statled response drills (behind the reactionary curve.) But since there is a fight continuum we cover "stand and deliver" for speed when you are in a dominate position. Controlled movement when your have distance and are equal in the reactionary curve. Sight focus and Threat focus are both covered. But most people come to us with substantial sighted skills so we focus on what they do not already own.

Which is usually the full run out of the startled response.

You are right this stuff is going to be saving lives. The reviews of our couses and techniques are already coming in at the Threat Focus forum that I posted above.

Three gun, make sure you read my Fluid Situatuional Response, the course works off of those principles.

We are on the same page.
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Old March 28, 2006, 12:58 PM   #23
threegun
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S'N'B, When even in the reactionary curve I was taught to retreat toward cover while engaging your adversary. This means that I must face the adversary while retreating. I retreat while maintaining a stable weapons platform, which is much slower than simply back pedaling, side pedaling, or turning a sprinting. In the fight continuum you teach, is this incorrect in the even position?
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Old March 28, 2006, 01:49 PM   #24
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Sweatn -
It's not that dynamic shooting takes lots of practice to learn...it's that it takes continuous practice to maintain. It's a use it or lose it skill - at least in my experience.

Additionally, I would wager that someone who has practiced dynamic shooting extensively (and efficiently) would be able to process a situation and react to it while shooting on the move much more quickly and effectively than a fresh student who spent a day learning the technique.

Practice doesn't necessarily mean that it's a secret ninja move that takes years to master. It does, however, usually mean that it takes a while to learn how to incorporate a specific technique into your bag of tricks and figure out how to employ it effectively in a time of stress.

Someone mentioned Immediate Action drills up there and whether or not they are important. While the average CCW'er isn't going to practice IA drills such as Close-Ambush, Sniper, or Contact-Left - that is not the full scope of an IA drill. Immediate Action is exactly what the name implies... it is a conditioned response to a specific situation. Magazine drills are the perfect example of an IA drill that would benefit the everyday CCW'er. Can you drop, possibly retain, and load a magazine without taking your eyes off of the threat area? How about practicing different types of draw for different types of situations? How about practicing off-hand draw if your strong-hand is injured? Practicing "seeking" cover in all three areas of the reactionary curve?

IA drills are not Gospel: They are a foundation. However, practicing these types of drills until they become ingrained responses and continuously developing, adapting, and improving these drills will ensure that an individual is as prepared as they can be.
You don't want the first time you need a skill to be the one time your life depends on executing it flawlessly and without hesitation.

Another take on IA drills is that conditioning your mind to automatically take care of certain tasks under stress will allow your mind more time to process and react to your situation. We've all heard of people who suddenly looked at their hands and noticed that they had drawn their weapon and dropped into a combat stance. This is the result of IA drills...it happened without thought, and it happened efficiently.
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Old March 28, 2006, 11:44 PM   #25
Sweatnbullets
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Quote:
S'N'B, When even in the reactionary curve I was taught to retreat toward cover while engaging your adversary. This means that I must face the adversary while retreating. I retreat while maintaining a stable weapons platform, which is much slower than simply back pedaling, side pedaling, or turning a sprinting. In the fight continuum you teach, is this incorrect in the even position?
The stable shooting platform idea comes from not having the knowledge to get hits on the run. Shooting on the run has been the focus of my training for years now. It is something that I have done very well for a while now and have yet come across someone that did it as well as I. But this is before I was taught Quick Kill. As soon as I learned it, I knew that this was the missing piece of the puzzle. One threat focused technique that had been virtually lost since 1980 is the difference between what everyone else is teaching and what is really possible. Not only does QK make this possible, it makes it a fact that I can teach the skill (shooting on the run) to almost anyone in a very short time.

We do not like back peddeling at all. We have three different responses to the rear, each one is done while turned toward the threat, with the feet pointed the direction that you are moving and they are deadly accurate. The speed of this movement is situationally dependent. Being even in the reactionary curve could allow for slower movement, but if you have the skills to get the same hits with faster movement, your body would probably choose the faster movement.

We do not always agree with the idea of "retreat to cover." It has it's place, but that is it. It does not cover every situation. What we do is teach you the skills to work in whatever direction is best for the situation. Even while being even in the reactionary curve, we see appropriate movement in numerous directions.

What we do is give you tools to cover as many situations as we can. We are not going to tell you "do this and do that" because we believe that your body will choose the appropriate response for the situation. What we give you is options and the confidence to make all of the options work for you. We cover why you may choose this direction and that speed, but nothing is set in stone like your prior instructors. We want a Fluid Situational Response and you to have the confidence and the skills to make that response work for you.
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