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Old March 22, 2006, 05:28 AM   #26
Glock 31
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Pull out my gun, rack a round if it's not already ready to go, and take as many with me as I can. If i'm lucky i'll come out of it with having saved lives. If not, I just smile as I bleed to death knowing that at least i'll die with a good deed on my record.

...my life is boring, I think about noble deaths and selfless sacrifice everyday. I don't really have anything else to think about anyway.
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Old March 22, 2006, 06:05 AM   #27
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Scenario posts while hated by many (including Glenn I thought) are fun and sometimes educational.

If my wife and child were at the other end and cellphone contact couldn't be made to insure their safety, I would have no choice but to engage the badguys. I would use cover and try to get whichever if any were by themselves. If successful I would get their longgun and finish the others. Odds are I would be dead in the end but better to be dead than to live with my family being killed.
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Old March 22, 2006, 06:54 AM   #28
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I get 911 on the cell immediatley and look for an option to try and save some lives (Probably race up the escalator) and gain the high ground to take out as many as my 28 bullets (two 14 round mags) will allow me...I know this probably won't be the most popular anwser but the way my mind works is that could easily be my Mom or Wife or anyone in my family the sick bastards are shooting...And if you're carrying the possibility exists for you to make a difference...And as far as concern for myself of course it's there but you have MANY outs in a mall. Hell even if I was to stand out of sight and shoot straight up into the air that could quite possibly be enough to draw their attention away long enough for some people to get away..And if as I'm on my way out I see the long gun and I got any rounds left..He catches one too.

I would never try to stop a robbery or anything where no one is being hurt...But if people are being killed and you're at no tactical disadvantage(And I don't think being unseen by BG's with AR-15's is a disadvantage) I don't think I could just run away knowing innocent people are being murdered.
Why the hell am I carrying if I can't protect myself or help someone who can't help themselves....Just my .02 like I said I don't expect it to be a popular anwser but it's honest.
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Old March 22, 2006, 07:02 AM   #29
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TM357,

Quote:
But if people are being killed and you're at no tactical disadvantage I don't think I could just run away knowing innocent people are being murdered
I'm not being a smarty pants but a handgun vs several ar-15 is a tactical disadvantage from the get go.

I do feel your compassion.
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Old March 22, 2006, 07:04 AM   #30
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I think it's a disadvantage if you're seen...But not visible till after I fire I would try to intervene (Despite what would more than likely be serious consquences)
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Old March 22, 2006, 10:29 AM   #31
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Grasshoppers, you are forgetting the subtle nature of the scenario.

If my family were in the mall, I'm not running out of Mervyn's and leaving the scene. What I actually do has too many branches at that point for a sure answer.

However, I have you outside seeing the AR dude.

If my family were at home, I watch AR dude run into the mall and then I am out of there.

The question is do you:

1. Flee - always a wise option but unleashes the great moral and/or I want to be hero debate. Altruism is complex.

2. Challenge AR dude and find out it is Doug. You may then say Adios to Doug flee or you might join his posse and CHARGE!

3. You might just immediately shoot AR dude - thus,
a. YOU KILLED DOUG - oops! Doug, have you left documentation so that your family, doesn't sue anybody who shoots you due to mistaken identity when you unlimber your AR in an urban fire fight?
b. You killed a terrorist - thus you are a hero.

Given the multicultural nature of society, if we all had ARs in the car and ran into the mall, there is no clear way to identify terrorists unless they are wearing signs. Quite the gun fight, wouldn't be?

Seriously, I see it as:

1. By yourself - flee and fight if you must to save yourself.
2. If family are there - try to get to them. One might avoid even obvious targets to get to them. Fight then if you must.

Hey, Delta Dave - nice seeing you yesterday - reading this one?
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Old March 22, 2006, 11:06 AM   #32
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I can't stand the mall so when forced to go shopping by the lovely Mrs. Threegun, I sit while she walks. After I answered the question that you posed, I started thinking heck if I'm in the mall mamas somewhere in there with our boys. Pretty spooky. It would be spooky even if I had my AR much less a stinkin handgun.
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Old March 22, 2006, 12:30 PM   #33
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Discretion is the better part of valor. Retreat if at all possible. Call 911 and tell them to send the cavalry. You do not have backup. You may be seen as a perp to responding officers. Fight like hell if you need to protect yourself or family and possibly others.
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Old March 22, 2006, 05:35 PM   #34
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Or, C: I'm not there since I never shop at the mall. I just drive the two blocks to my local super Walmart.

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Old March 22, 2006, 09:25 PM   #35
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If my wife, children, or any innocents are involved...

Then it would require an armed response from me...

Is there any chance I will give a warning?

In this particular situation?

No, I would not...this to me would just be incentive for the BG's to find a new target... ME!

I think I would not be able to live with myself knowing I could have potentially saved a life of another and didn't....

This is MY personal view and IS NOT INTENDED TO OFFEND anyone...

I just beleive if fate finds you in a position to help another you should...
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Old March 23, 2006, 04:57 AM   #36
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First thought would be find cover, if you ever spent time with an AR it is deadly accurate at the length of a mall and depending on what your carrying the chances of you getting off a clean shot at that distance and a hit is not as good as the guy nailing you with the AR. I don't think I would be running inside with a hand gun to address 1 more more guys with AR's

Depending on the situation I would probably address the guy in the parking lot.
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Old March 23, 2006, 05:30 AM   #37
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If my wife and child were in the mall...

Quote:
Then it would require an armed response from me...
other than that...

1. Run

2. Run fast

3. Run fast, and hide

Dont try to be a hero in a situation that would lead to your death, unless you're putting it all on the line for your family or loved ones.
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Old March 23, 2006, 09:16 AM   #38
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Quote:
1. Run

2. Run fast

3. Run fast, and hide
Quick...think like a Mannequin.
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Old March 23, 2006, 10:48 AM   #39
Glenn E. Meyer
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How do we address Doug vs. Looney Terrorist in the parking lot?

Do you yell:

Don't Move - Now are you a terrorist?

Why of course not, I am a loyal American (with an accent). Let's go in together. You go first (bang, bang, bang).

Now brave Doug sees you and hears your challenge. What does he do? Doug is charging in to save the world and you are challenging him. In the fog of battle, does Doug AR you tush into the dirt, ooopps!

This might be flame bait, but the literature is fairly clear that caucasian folks tend to overestimate the danger from minority folks. There are quite a few articles after the Diallo incident showing this. If you were a minority, I would opine that you are at significant risk if you try to intervene from the AR parking lot crowd. If you are part of the AR parking lot crowd, to you consider that your initial evaluation of someone else who might be wanting to intervene is subject to bias?

I was trying to focus on the specific interaction of interventionists as well as the issue of the overall strategy. In a FOF exercise, we had a team and then we were joined by a bystander good guy - confusing for a sec.

BTW, this again points out why FOF is quite different from matches or videos.
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Old March 23, 2006, 11:47 AM   #40
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Glenn,
I only replied to this particular scenario because it's not really that far fetched. But let me say this before this thread gets shut down because I think it has run it's course.

I'm sure someone besides you has seen what's going on and has already called 911 and they are probably already on there way. Now if like threegun has added to the mix, my family were in that mall, there is no way on God's green earth that I'm NOT going back in there to find them. I will find a way inside and make an attempt to rescue them even if it costs me my life.

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Old March 23, 2006, 11:59 AM   #41
Glenn E. Meyer
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Well, I was being a touch silly.

The real points were that:

1. The best strategy is to get out of Dodge, if one takes a realistic view of saving just oneself.

2. If the family is there - I think we all agree that we need to get to them. That probably means avoiding the shooters if one can. Proactive engagement at a distance from the family is not going to help them if they are in another part.

3. If you see another armed individual, that person is an unknown quality. I would avoid such when fleeing or going back to the family.

I've heard presentation by terrorist experts who have wondered why if we don't have significant terrorist cells in the USA, we haven't seen such mall or other crowded area attacks. They certainly have been done in Europe and Israel.

The arguments are not that the terrorists fear the CCW type but more on the strategy of incident impact and that such attacks don't serve their interests.

Lott argues that rampage shootings have decreased because of CHL. I'm not so sure. The numbers are small and statistical significance is weak. We have no evidence from rampage shooters or prospective shooters that they considered CHLs. However, how would one get such data?

Shooting incidents in Israel seem to have diminished due to armed populace issues, though.

Some anecdotal points:

The guy who shot up the Jewish Day Care in California avoided another school as it had an armed guard (not a CHL worry).

Two rampage shootings didn't go well for recent CHL types - Texas courthouse and Mall guys. First was killed, second froze and was shot.

However, these are so small in numbers to be meaningless. We don't know if the shooters considered CHLs. Texas guy had armor but that was probably for the cops.

This probably has run its course.
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Old March 23, 2006, 01:47 PM   #42
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First, I’d have to recon and ascertain the situation. Then call 911 – let them know what I’ve ascertained. Then phone my wife on her cell and find out what her situation is, if she is clear, I’d have her take cover. THEN, IF people are in fact being killed at random, I’d go to my car; get my .44 Super Blackhawk & my Browning 92B .44MAG, return to the mall, find good cover and take out the BG’s.
Sorry if this sounds like too much, and it may not be the right answer; BUT (as much as I would hate to take a human life) I can’t with all good conscience let civilians die when I have the skills, equipment & ability to do different. An American is one who defends the defenseless.
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Old March 23, 2006, 02:02 PM   #43
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Glenn,
Quote:
BTW, this again points out why FOF is quite different from matches or videos.
FoF is gonna help you hide from multiple ar-15 armed attackers while looking for your family in the mall? You practice sneaking around multiple bad guy's with rifles in FoF? You yourself have seen the futility in going against multiple attackers? This experience of getting "hosed" helped you how? Are the next multiple attackers you face are somehow doomed now that you have this experience? I think the outcome will be the same. You and I both will probably get "hosed" by multiple attackers, so FoF is not a magic mojo. Besides its gonna take allot of money to cover every scenario and keep proficient at it. In no way do I believe that competition will overcome overwhelming odds but neither will FoF. Again I do agree that FoF is good if you can afford it.

Quote:
Shooting incidents in Israel seem to have diminished due to armed populace issues, though.
Being armed does prevent crime. Same as good outdoor lighting and alarm systems reduce the number of breakins. I don't think it stops wack jobs from going on rampages though.

Being armed has prevented the pawnshop that I manage from being robbed for over 20 years. I know this because the 2 shops within 5 blocks of ours get regular visits from robbers to the tune of 3plus each per year. They both have the same money and gold as ours. They have 5 employees and we have only 3 on duty daily. They close at 7PM and we close at 9PM. We use to open till midnight. We have never been robbed but every employee openly carries a sidearm. That is the only difference.
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Old March 23, 2006, 02:36 PM   #44
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Quote:
We have never been robbed but every employee openly carries a sidearm. That is the only difference.
That is not the difference, that is the reason!
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Old March 23, 2006, 03:33 PM   #45
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Im not a big mall shopper thanks to the Internet
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Old March 23, 2006, 04:31 PM   #46
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River,

Quote:
That is not the difference, that is the reason!
Yeper. Imagine 3 robberies per year for 20 years. I have heard from 8,000 in cash and gold to over 40,000 per event. Just using 10,000 dollars as an average and thats 600,000 dollars minumum that simply being armed has saved. The best thing is my boss. Several liberal N.Y. family members have tried to get him to stop us from carrying for liability reasons. He says that he would rather lose all his money than live knowing that one of us died because we weren't allowed to protect ourselves. The absolute coolest boss ever. We get new guns at cost. Used guns at a song.
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Old March 23, 2006, 05:19 PM   #47
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If I'm alone call 911 set up an OP somewhere outside. If my family is inside call my wifes cell and tell her to leave at the nearest exit, she already knows that gunfire in the mall is not good and she will probably already be there. If I can't determine whether or not she is inside then I'll go back and do whatever is needed to get them out. I know a hanggun is not the weapon of choice agaisnt 3 BGs armed with ARs but if you could get close enough maybe.....
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Old March 23, 2006, 05:54 PM   #48
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Calling 911 seems like a waste of time unless youre actually standing at a payphone ready to use it, or you have already made it to your car and are driving away from the scene and feeling bored. Why? The people inside with landlines undoubtedly started dialling as soon as the first shot rang, the call connected in an instant and the cops were dispatched to their exact location. Try the same thing with a cellphone and *if* you get through, to the *right* dispatch, you have to confirm your location before the cops will know where to go. Not something you want to deal with when ducking behind a planter hiding from bullets.

What would I do? I don't have a very aggressive attitude most of the time, but like many people I have a 'hero' complex and would be inclined to directly intervene. The guy in the parking lot wouldn't be one of them (who the hell shows up late for a shootout). Join him and find independent cover near the shooters, start taking careful shots until the shooters actually draw to fire on you. Line of fire? If anyone is around the shooters they are probably already dead. Gauge their reaction and prepare to retreat *fast*. Most likely they will relocate, depending on their ultimate goal (be it robbery) or they will pursue you (be it suicide-by-cop). Hope its not the latter. If you are carrying, hopefully you already have a head full of knowledge, like the things to hide behind that can stop a .223 round, and the fastest way out of the building. Put together a strategy like leading them your way and then sneaking one of multiple ways away from there, to split them up or mislead them. Unless your are in sneak, be constantly shouting 'gun, gun, get cover' so that fewer bystanders will be in harms way. When you aren't engaging, keep your weapon pointed straight down so noone assumes you are an aggressor.

This is some john wayne crap, indeed. But, many lives are on the line and if i had a choice to put myself in danger to save several people, i would gladly do it. Everyone in there is someones kid, someones parent, someone that doesnt deserve to get shot any more than if they were your own. Thats why people carry in the first place, right?
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Old March 23, 2006, 08:52 PM   #49
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Threegun: you've got a cool boss!!
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Old March 23, 2006, 10:04 PM   #50
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The Moderator closes my post about alien invasion scenarios, but leaves this open....why. What ever happened to free speach. Unless you can prove Aliens don't exist, it's just a question of probabilities.

I think I'd call the cops and get the hell out of there......a lot of dead hero's in the world, no need to add to that number
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