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Old March 20, 2006, 01:52 PM   #101
SixForSure
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I once saw an automobile accident. Those things are dangerous. People just shouldn't drive!
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Old March 20, 2006, 02:16 PM   #102
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This business about risk vs. reward does not make sense to me.

There is no risk; the firearm is inert until employed either 1) voluntarily or 2) involuntarily through negligence. There is only a risk when the 4 rules and some common sense remain idle.

Likewise, there is no reward unless you're faced with defending your life -- and are victorious of course.

In fact, I believe there is more risk when unarmed, and certainly no reward. Far too many people argue over the degree of risk based on the location or activity, and use this as a gauge to carry, or not to carry.

When you start weighing likelihood of danger in your planned activity versus the necessity to carry during the same... you're gambling plain and simple.

Do you only obtain car insurance when you drive in particularly congested areas, as the likelihood of an accident is far greater? Probably not.

While insurance or fire extinguishers are very tired comparisons, it's the same with the firearm. Carrying the firearm at all times gives you the opportunity to protect your interests at all times.

Carrying to any degree of frequency is definitely an added responsibility. Done properly, there is no more risk carrying in a Chucky Cheese, than there is carrying in downtown Baghdad.
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Old March 20, 2006, 02:24 PM   #103
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Quote:
And the risk is????

Then I will ask this question..

How come an incident where some moron who is not responsible enough to know how to safely carry and conceal a loaded weapon ANYWHERE suddenly makes it irresponsible, or less responsible, for anyone else who knows better to do so?
I'm just trying to explain what I think he meant.

Quote:
Do you only obtain car insurance when you drive in particularly congested areas, as the likelihood of an accident is far greater? Probably not.
if it wasn't the law that I HAD to have it I wouldn't have it at all.

But agani I was just trying to explain what I think he meant. but a fair comparison would be, how many people are there out there that DON'T carry? MANY times more than those that do. and what do you think the percentage of those people are that have become targets? So just like the chances of the gun going off inside the theater are slim to none, so are the chances of you being attacked outside the theater. or anyplace for that matter unless you're walking through north philly at 2:00am with $100 hanging out of your pockets.
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Old March 20, 2006, 03:04 PM   #104
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Again- I fail to see the relevance of a theater "full of kids".
If you want to place conditions and restrictions on where you can defend your life and others, it's your choice.
It's not mine, however.
Also again- where I may be going or where I may end up has zero relevance to carrying a defensive tool, with very few exceptions such as those dictated by federal buildings & so on. I am armed when I visit the homes of relatives, for instance, and since I happen to be quite fond of the family members I visit, I certainly feel no threat from them. A perceived and arbitrary
"Threat Index" based on what threat level I think I may encounter at various points during any given day is idiotic, to my mind, and ignores the basic principles of violence I pointed out earlier. Violence occurs at random, and is no respecter of places. The thought that "I don't go to bad places, so I don't need to carry a gun" also ignores those principles, and in my opinion is something of a head-in-the-sand approach to life. The three incidents I mentioned previously were specifically intended to illustrate that that mindset really has no applicability to the decision to go armed or not. Yes, visiting certain types of locales can certainly raise the risk of being subjected to violence, but only going to "good" places does not entirely remove that risk.
I do not feel threatened by Popcorn-Eating Mommies at a theater. I simply choose to exercise my option of being prepared to defend my life and others should a threat appear ANYWHERE, and forget the gun is along until or unless it's needed. That way, assessing projected threat levels along the way during my day or night is totally unnecessary. A side note to that is the fact that my handgun is no threat or danger in itself to anyone I may be around, unless I choose to make it so.
I'm not in any way suggesting that everybody should go armed, nor am I criticising anyone who chooses not to. That's entirely an individual decision. If a person is not comfortable with the idea, is not willing to realistically look at what's involved (proper training, proper equipment, proper mindset, proper understanding of the responsibility, etc.), and is not prepared to take the process seriously, then that person absolutely should not carry a defensive gun.
I also have a difficult time understanding the thought processes behind the "Take my wallet, take my car, take my life" attitude. Not meaning to be offensive (that's a matter of individual choice, too), but I enjoy the company of the people I love & like to believe they enjoy mine. I'm also doing my best to enjoy my life after 28 years in various uniforms. I'm not willing to give all that up without a struggle. My wife would miss me, and maybe one or two of the kids would, too. I consider such an attitude to be extremely defeatist, and I've taken too many reports, gone to too many hospitals, and seen too many dead bodies that arose from a robbery that went far beyond the simple taking of a wallet, to assume that if I give somebody my cash they'll say thanks & let me peacefully stroll away. I've also seen too many times when such a response got a third party hurt, too. You may be willing to give up your life, but you may be making a decision for somebody else's life at the same time.
There are a number of issues involved in defensive handgun carry, none should be taken lightly, but all should be considered realistically.
Some of the reasoning I see put forth on the various forums regarding concealed carry (blanks, empty chambers, never-on-Sunday, and so on) leaves me scratching my head. If you are going to choose to carry a gun, carry it! Carry it safely, and carry it ready to go! Part-time and half-measures will do their best to keep Murphy's Law operating.
Not attempting to start, engage in, or prolong an argument, or to offer anyone here an insult. Just baffled at some of the commentary.
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Old March 20, 2006, 03:23 PM   #105
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some of you poeple (and take tis as an insult or whatever you want) live in a dream world. you think that the second you walk out the door of your house a red light goes off in the bad guy's hide out that you are on the move and they all want to converge on you. First of all the odds of you being attacked are slim to none. period. there's no argument there unless, like I said you go looking for it. Second if you are a father and husband then you are an idiot to try to fight off an attacker of any kind with any weapon when he says he wants your wallet or car. the chanced of him killing you after are there but are a lot less than you going gun when he asks for your wallet. *** would your wife say when the cops tell her that you were killed when you tried to pull your gun on the guy trying to take your car? is your car worth that much to you? step on the gas, hand over the keys, whatever. but try to get your gun out and I'd be willing to bet he/they are going to shoot you. and Third is the great "it will never happen to me" mind set. I seem to remember someone on this forum posting about how they have been handling guns for decades (they may have even been in LE) and one day when going to clean his handgun he put a .45 cal hole in his hand. guess what, accidents happen. and they can happen to you. a gun is a mechanical device and if you paid attention in your safty class you'll know that mechanical devices fail. not all the time and not everytime but it can happen. so because someone doesn't feel the need to carry a gun into a theater full of kids, even if he is safe and responsible with it, you shouldn't jump down the guy's throat.
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Old March 20, 2006, 03:37 PM   #106
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"I see lots of CCW posts and I often wonder why people would want the responsibility to carry and control a lethal weapon under most circumstances."


Because I kinda like being the one responsible for the safety of myself and my loved ones, instead of relying on a 911 operator and a cop 10 minutes away. I guess I could throw my phone at the mugger/rapist/assailant, but I want the option of using something that has a little more effect.

Knowing, of course, that by choosing to do so, I also have the responsibility to be safe and not cause harm to an innocent 3rd party. Some can live with that responsiblity, some cannot. If one cannot, they should not carry.

Going back through this thread, it is amusing to me the whole "Disney movie" concept. Who cares what kind of movie it was or the crowd involved? You have to walk to your car, don't you? Who is waiting in the parking lot? Nemo and friends? I doubt it.

Recently in my area we had a string of muggings in a theater parking lot. The same theater, the same perps. They finally caught them. I doubt if the muggers asked if the patrons had been to a Disney movie or not, and if so, let them walk. A gun in your car would do you no good. What if they decided to put you in their car to take you to an ATM? That would be a fun road trip with your gun in the car or at home, eh? They could always leave you in the trunk of the car and push it into a river when they were done, like they did to a couple a few years back down here.

The recent Denny's shootings in California are a prime example of why I personally choose to carry. I can't see myself spending the last moments of my life underneath a filthy table in a greasy spoon begging for the lives of my family and myself.

Can you?

Would you?
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Old March 20, 2006, 03:39 PM   #107
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The original post included:

"Just sharing this with you because I am an NRA member and served in the Army and am pro gun rights, but I cannot for the life of me figure out the logic of carrying a locked and loaded handgun into a movie theatre full of kids and moms.

Can you ?

Would you ?"

Yes, I can, . . . Yes, I would.

I wear socks on my feet to keep my feet from being blistered by my shoes.

I wear shoes on my feet to keep them from being cut by glass, nails, stones, and other nasties on the streets and sidewalks.

I wear a shirt and trousers because it is generally cold in Ohio, I am not a nudist, and it is more or less the accepted dress code.

I also wear my 1911 cocked & locked, . . . or my .380 with one in the chamber, . . . and a covering garment to conceal it from the bad guys.

Why? Because there are too many idiots who go around shooting up McDonalds (San Diego, Cal), Denny's (3 places in Cal in last week), churches in Detroit (about a month ago), courthouse in East Texas, mall in Tacoma, and just about any other place sheeple congregate.

The guy whose Glock "went off" was fiddling with the gun, . . . fooling around with the gun, . . . or previously did something to the gun to cause it to malfunction in such a manner is my take on it, . . . AD's & ND's are just like little kids, . . . they're caused, . . . they don't JUST HAPPEN.

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Old March 20, 2006, 03:48 PM   #108
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RHA,
If that was directed at me, let me say that (unless you're also a retired cop or EMS worker) I've dealt personally with the aftermath of more violent encounters than you'll ever even hear about. A huge percentage of those victims started out that day, or that evening, with the exact same attitude you put forward. "The odds of me being attacked are slim to none." Right or wrong, obviously for those people the odds did nothing to protect them from injury. The odds of you being shot at a restaurant may be "slim to none", but that hasn't helped a few former customers of McDonald's & Denny's in recent years.
You have your view of your world, I have my view of my world. Within those views we each make our decisions about how we'll address our worlds.
I choose to evaluate my odds, and to react to them in my own way. You obviously do the same. I was not jumping down anybody's throat, just expressing bafflement at some of the reasoning expressed in this thread. I find it difficult to understand the half-measures. My position is that if you're going to make the decision to carry along the means to save your own butt, why hamper yourself with half-time carry & half-ready equipment? If you're not ready to commit completely, why bother? Not criticism, just don't understand the thought processes.
I'll address briefly one issue brought up by your post. The presence of my gun during a robbery or other violent attack neither demands that it be used every time, nor dictates how it be used. That's where my brain, my training, my experience, and my judgement comes into play. I can still determine that an armed response may not be necessary, or how much of an armed response may be indicated. Without the defensive tool along, my decision-making process is much simplified. All decisions, including whether I live, die, or end up crippled for life, are made for me by whoever may be initiating the incident.
If that's the way you want to live your life, have at it.
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Old March 20, 2006, 03:51 PM   #109
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Movie Theater

I thought you were not allowed to carry in a place that charges admission.
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Old March 20, 2006, 04:12 PM   #110
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Quote:
I thought you were not allowed to carry in a place that charges admission.
Each state has their own laws. Try packing.org to find out where YOU can and can not carry.
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Old March 20, 2006, 04:29 PM   #111
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Rha,

What is there -an estimated range of 764,036 to 3,609,682 defensive uses of guns per year? And how many times does someone who does CCW have their weapon go off negligently? Less then 100?.. More? less? In 2004, there were an estimated 1,367,009 violent crimes nationwide. Read it again - OVER 1 MILLION victims!!! Seems the odds/risk/rewards favor carrying. OF course all those facts are mute if it is YOUR life, YOUR wife, or YOUR kids you failed to protect because you just didn't think your being a victim was very likely.

I am glad you are pyshic enough to know when you will be safe, and whether that BG robbing you, planning on raping your wife, or thinking about kidnapping your kids is really NOT going to hurt them, no matter what he says or threatens.

I don't have that ability, and would rather trust MYSELF then THEIR good nature. I will have a few more options in how to handle the situation if I am armed.

Seems you are a gambling man, and that is fine! What's great is (for the most part) we CAN make our own decisions of what is worth the responsibility, and what isn't. Having it and NEVER needing it is SOO MUCH better then needing it even once, and NOT having it.

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Old March 20, 2006, 04:33 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rha600
Second if you are a father and husband then you are an idiot to try to fight off an attacker of any kind with any weapon when he says he wants your wallet or car. the chanced of him killing you after are there but are a lot less than you going gun when he asks for your wallet. *** would your wife say when the cops tell her that you were killed when you tried to pull your gun on the guy trying to take your car? is your car worth that much to you? step on the gas, hand over the keys, whatever. but try to get your gun out and I'd be willing to bet he/they are going to shoot you.
Of course it's easy to think up a scenario where pulling your weapon is a bad idea, rha600. Unfortunately, your example proves nothing.

The decision to carry has absolutely nothing to do with any scenario you can produce, nor does the choice to carry have to do with living in a dream world, as you so eloquently chose to describe those who carry everywhere.

...and it definitely has nothing to do with:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rha600
you think the second you walk out the door of your house a red light goes off in the bad guy's hide out that you are on the move and they all want to converge on you.
This is silly. If you’re here to imply those who carry everywhere a bunch of crazy paranoids -- save it. It’s been done before with no positive outcome.

Rather, try to understand carrying has to do with the a decision to make available the means to protect oneself, should the situation arise where employing said means is both possible, and intelligent.

To not carry is to deny oneself the means, and therefore the choice.

Most people appreciate having the choice. But… carrying is not for everyone.
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Old March 20, 2006, 04:33 PM   #113
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I wish I could say I'd read all 5 pages of this. But damn ... there's just too much there!

But as to what I have read, it reminds me of a post on the brady bunch website:

Quote:
“Common sense tells us that loaded, hidden guns don’t belong in large crowds, on crowded buses and in daycare centers,” Sarah Brady said.
But the facts tell us differently. These are EXACTLY the kinds of places we have the most to fear from a terrorist or madman. EXACTLY the places where we have the most to protect, and EXACTLY the places where we want responsible adults empowered to protect those who can't protect themselves.

That theater full of kids described in the first post is an excellent place for a responsible adult safely carrying a firearm (unprotected pocket carry of any firearm, much less a Glock, is irresponsible and unsafe anywhere). There is so much there to protect. And I'll bet if you were taking your kid to a theater and saw a bored cop sitting in the corner with a Glock on his hip and a BUG in an ankle holster you'd actually feel safer, wouldn't you? So why does a badge magically make someone "safe" to carry in a theater? I go to great pains to stay safe with that weapon (if I thought there was even one chance in a 100,000 I'd have an ND around my toddler, no way I'd carry at all -- not worth it) and I'm as safe or safer as that cop dozing off by the door.

Am I likely to be attacked when I step outside my door? Heck no. I'm well into my 40's and haven't even come close to having to use a firearm yet. No reason to believe that trend won't continue for another 40 years.

Would I use a firearm to protect my wallet or car? HELL no. It's not there to protect my car or wallet or even my house. It's there ONLY to defend the life of myself, my family, or human life in general if I feel I have to intervene in some situation.

But bad things do happen. Every day there are rapes, random assaults on people (do I need to post examples) and while they are unlikely to happen to me as an individual, there's no reason I couldn't win that bad luck lottery.

And I keep thinking about Columbine ... obviously the "wrong" place to carry a weapon by the logic above, but that logic didn't stop klebold and harris.

And I'm also reminded of the courageous Dave Sanders, a teacher at Columbine, who was running down the halls making sure everyone was locked up when he ran into the shooters in the hallway and got gunned down (he later bled to death) just before the shooters continued into the library to do the worst of their killing.

If that teacher had confrontem them with the gun (which "obviously" shouldn't be carried in a school) perhaps he could have done more than just absorb bullets and die. Maybe he could have saved some lives. I have no idea if he would have chosen to carry in the school if he could have, but he obviously had a "sheep dog" pesonality and if he had, and that moment he would have had the weapon out and ready.

The cops sure as hell didn't save any lives. They crouched outside behind their cars while the shooting was actively going on waiting for instructions and SWAT. They didn't enter the school for hours. They left the students to fend for themselves. But then ... while I don't envy Cops their jobs and responsibilities, they're real responsibility is not to defend people, but to capture and arrest criminals. Self Defense during an actual attack is the responsibility of no one but the victim, since cop's can't be everywhere all the time.

Although I don't always carry ... I'll continue to keep it as an option as long as I legally can. No reason not to, and while chances are 20 years from now I'll probably just be reflecting on how I've been hauling around a useless and uncomfortable hunk of iron I never did anything with ... who knows.

Maybe I'll have been one of the unlucky few in this country to run into BG's intent on harm, and maybe the handgun will have saved my life or someone elses. Or maybe it didn't because I didn't have an opportunity to use it ... but at least I had a potential option.
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Old March 20, 2006, 04:38 PM   #114
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The orginal question was would you carry "a locked and loaded handgun into a movie theatre"? The key wording to me is "locked and loaded". My answer is "NO"... I would at least unchamber my gun knowing I could rechamber one in a matter of seconds if needed.

After reading the posts in this thread I realize that either I live in fairly safe corner of the US, or I'm just lucky that I avoid most of the nastiness out there.
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Old March 20, 2006, 04:55 PM   #115
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But again, West - the question WHY??? WHY unload?

Don't you think IF you need that weapon it will be NOW? Don't you think it is more dangerous for you to unload then just leaving the piece secured? (and WHERE/WHEN would you unload? in the car with your kids? In the restroom? Where/When???) Don't you think if you do unload, and need the gun NOW, you are more dangerous and less capable trying to reload then just leaving the gun ready to go? What IS your reason(s)?
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Old March 20, 2006, 06:23 PM   #116
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Quote:
My answer is "NO"... I would at least unchamber my gun knowing I could rechamber one in a matter of seconds if needed.
I have nothing against people who choose to carry without one in the chamber. I'm willing to bet that for 90% of civilian defense scenarios this will be sufficient.

But ... your plan means that you'll constantly be chambering and unchambering rounds. While this operation is relatively safe, even in a weapon with a decocker, it is a far mroe dangerous procedure than carrying in a safe holster. Everytime you operate the slide with a round in the chamber you're raising the risks of an ND notably.

In the days of the 1911, the military used to set up special bullet traps at guard stations and the like to clear weapons. You probably don't have one in your vehicle, so it's safer to either always carry w/o one in the chamber or just make sure you have a safe weapon and carry rig and always carry with one in the chamber.
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Old March 20, 2006, 08:30 PM   #117
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original post

For what it's worth, I never made a statement objecting to the right to CCW. I don't object to it. I support it. I had a pistol permit while living AL myslef.

What's wrong with asking why people choose CCW ?

I asked why people feel the need to do so, and threw in an actual incident where CCW didn't make much sense to me and nearly cost a life (or two). Clearly my former co-worker in Hoover AL didn't use good sense and failed to control his weapon. I didn't say this incident 'proved' anything about 'pro' or 'anti' CCW. But you can bet most people in that theatre that evening now have a strong opinion about CCW - my co-worker didn't help any of us in terms of CCW rights.

From reading this thread it looks like many people think it's OK to carry in childcare centers as well as nasty streets and bars. It's OK with me, and I am not judging anyone. I'm only asking the question(s) to better understand the CCW mentality.

It seems like most people that want to carry whenever possible have experienced an incident or been close to someone who did, or live/work in close proximity to high-crime or high risk places.

Interesting thread.
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Old March 20, 2006, 08:34 PM   #118
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When my wife and I go to the movies, I ALWAYS carry my gun. If someone wants to go nutts and start shooting and kill as many people as possible, a full movie theatre would be a good place to do it. Of course I always carry anyways. I carry a G23 BTW.
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Old March 20, 2006, 08:55 PM   #119
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Quote:
I know more about firearms and how to handle them than most peolpe. I have shot at people and I have been shot at. I agree with the right to carry laws and hopefully one will be passed very soon here in Kansas. But it gives me the willies thinking of people carrying in crowded areas full of kids, etc. unless they are LEOs.
Just wondering,in your mind why are LEO's different? they are human and just as prone to screw up as any one else.
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Old March 20, 2006, 09:08 PM   #120
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Very interesting, and some good points. I can only add a good holster is a must for concealed carry. A person must practice [unloaded] of course, drawing and replacing the hand gun.

Yes I would carry around kids, my pistol in a quality holster!
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Old March 20, 2006, 09:11 PM   #121
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Mark, . . . FWIW, . . . I went back and reviewed your first post and my answer.

I guess I may have copped an attitude from your first post, . . . one that I did not need to get. For that I apologize, . . . because as I read my post, . . . the attitude seemed to kinda jump out.

I have had few things in my life that have deeply, sincerely, and thoroughly busted my foundation, . . . but three things I can relate to you did:

My baby sister who was killed by a driver who was too drunk to walk and paid for his "crime" with a $382.00 fine.

Coming back to the states from VietNam to the tune of "Baby Killer" and other such insults.

Reading about the young woman who described the shooting and killing of her parents in the restaurant in Texas several years ago.

Today, . . . I am not the person one wants to go to for a crying shoulder if you have been convicted of DUI, . . . I am still not very forgiving to Hanoi Jane and all of her cohorts who went to Canada, . . . and to borrow from Springmom's signature line, . . . I will not be a victim, . . . restaurant, theater, church, gas station, grocery store, . . .

Sometimes when someone gets up real close to one of those areas, . . . I do cop an attitude, . . . hope you can understand.

May God bless,
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Old March 20, 2006, 09:33 PM   #122
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Can some of you CCW friendly people establish residency in California so we can counter balance the metrosexual/women/fake conservative population that are so anti gun? You guys have the luxury of deciding whether to carry, whereas the rest of us living in occupied territory are forced to carry illegally sometimes...

Anyone? Bueller?
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Old March 20, 2006, 09:56 PM   #123
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Dwight55:

I'm very sorry to hear about your sister. I don't have any tolerance for DUI.

I also heard the 'baby-killer' taunts when I came back thru Oakland in 1970 and don't have much use for Hanoi Jane (or MacNamara)

I guess I jerked a few chains starting this post but it is a touchy topic anyway, and it has been interesting to see the responses.

I have had a permit in the past but don't carry mostly because I don't want the responsibility that comes with the weapon. I guess I'm getting old and lazy. If I lived in a tough area I probably would. I have had some scrapes over the years but since VN I have managed to talk or bluff my way clear. Thinking back on it, the few times I really wished I had a piece might have ended poorly if I had been carrying.

I have no problem with those who wish to carry. I only hope they do it better than my former co-worker in Alabama, and it's probably fair to say that the vast majority of them probably do.

Regards,

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Old March 20, 2006, 10:04 PM   #124
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Group hug?
I've said my piece, even avoided waxing sarcasmic.
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Fonda is not on my birthday card list. :barf:
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Old March 20, 2006, 10:06 PM   #125
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We don't live in a safe world. Things can happen at any time and any place. Theaters are no exception.

I cannot for the life of me figure why any responsible adult who does want to ensure safety of others would NOT ccw every where.
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