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Old March 17, 2006, 07:36 PM   #1
zeroskillz
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Double tap 2nd shot low

I was practincing double taps for the first time todayy (afterr my first IDPA match the other night) and my 2nd shots seem to be going low for the most part. Any s suggestions on what to do to correct this--or any tips in general for double and triple shot groups Thanks!
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Old March 17, 2006, 07:44 PM   #2
mete
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You're probably jerking the trigger and maybe your hand in anticipation of the recoil. A proper double tap is where you fire the second shot the instant the slide locks forward after the first shot. That's before the recoil from the first shot has completely moved the gun back.
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Old March 17, 2006, 07:51 PM   #3
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You concentrated on your first shot and it went where you aimed it...

You didn't focus on the front sight for your second shot and it didn't...

Slow down and make the shot count... FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS.

Like keyboarding, the speed will take care of itself...

You should pracrice at the same tempo you would use to say FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS
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Old March 17, 2006, 08:37 PM   #4
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Anticipating the recoil, pushing the second shot down. Concentrate on the rhythm and the front sight.
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Old March 17, 2006, 10:16 PM   #5
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THe last thing in the world you should do is shoot SLOWER double taps. Real world combat shooting is not a game!
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Old March 18, 2006, 02:22 AM   #6
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Variations Of The Double Tap

Variations of the “Double Tap”
Based on material posted by Rosco Benson on www.tacticalforums.com on
12-13-2002.

There is much confusion over the term “double tap” and what it actually means.

A “double tap” is a quick two shot burst fired on a single target. We fire two shots because we may miss with the first or the first hit may not cause incapacitation rapidly enough to protect us from a deadly assault.

Within the concept of the “Double Tap”, Jeff Cooper at API taught three variations, the “Hammer”, the “Dedicated Pair” and the “Controlled Pair”. Many people believe the specific technique of the “Hammer” is the same as the “Double Tap” but that is not exactly true. The “Double Tap” is the general category of technique and the “Hammer”, “Dedicated Pair”
and “Controlled Pair” are specific applications of that technique.

The normally accepted standard of accuracy is that both hits remain in the A zone on an IPSC, IDPA or Paladin silhouette target. A 8 inch paper plate makes a field expedient repair center for practice purposes.

The “Hammer” is a flash sight picture – shot #1 – recover from recoil – shot #2.This is a technique best utilized where multiple hits with coarse accuracy are required very quickly at close range. Whether one can successfully get the required hits using the “hammer” is certainly influenced by recoil and it manifests itself as the distance at which one can keep his “hammer” delivered pairs acceptably placed.

One sight picture, two shots. A “Hammer’s” best utility is to put two hits on target in a hyper-rapid interval, and with practice one can fire a “dedicated pair” or a “controlled pair” nearly as fast with greater accuracy.

The “Dedicated Pair” is an aimed sight picture – shot #1 – recover from recoil – flash sight picture – shot #2. The “Dedicated Pair” differs from the “Controlled Pair” only in that, while the sights are seen for the second shot, no attempt is made to correct the sight picture. The sights are seen for the second shot only to verify alignment that has already been achieved through a well-practiced follow-through. Since the eye can pick up images incredibly quickly, many shooters who think they are firing “hammers” are really firing “controlled pairs”.

The “Controlled Pair” goes like so: aimed sight picture – shot #1 – recover from recoil – reacquire aimed sight picture as needed – shot #2.

In a “controlled pair” the interval between the shots can be very short or quite long. The length of the interval is influenced by the degree of marksmanship difficulty required by circumstance, the recoil of the weapon, the type of trigger, and so forth.

Through practice, experienced shooters know how much time they need to deliver a “double tap” on a particular target at a particular distance under particular circumstances. A charging target at 5 yards might best be engaged by a “Hammer” where a partial target behind hard cover at 15 yards would require a “Controlled Pair”. Most situations are best resolved with a “Dedicated Pair”.

These descriptions of technique are most useful to newer shooters trying to conceptualize marksmanship skills and techniques over the continuum of situations where they might need to be applied. With practice, experienced shooters know how precise a trigger stroke and how perfect a sight picture they need to deliver a shot or shot on target under different parameters.
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Old March 23, 2006, 11:13 PM   #7
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Also, just started trying double taps

I've just started shooting IPSC (actually only able to attend 1 so far) and also find knowing double taps can be very useful during that competition.

Initially, my second shot goes anywhere on the paper, about a 4" radius from my first shot. And I was shooting as fast as I can.

I noticed that if I slowed down a bit, just a fraction of a second. My second shot goes within 1" of my first shot. And all my double taps look the same, 1 shot and another shot at about 1" to the right, slightly (maybe .25") higher. I don't know which of these shots is the first though. But this is very reproducible, I'd say 99% of the time.

I've only be practicing double taps for about 4 range trips, and I've not asked anubody for help/pointers. So, I'm glad you posted this because I'd like to learn more too.
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Old March 23, 2006, 11:18 PM   #8
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Noticed that I didn't mention this:

I don't aim my second shot; it just follows the first. I'll save a target and post a pic of it next time I go to the range.

If somebody can post a pic of their double taps, that'd help.
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Old March 24, 2006, 02:00 PM   #9
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Hard Ball
Quote:
The last thing in the world you should do is shoot SLOWER double taps. Real world combat shooting is not a game!
Actually... it is the very first thing you should do...

Your understanding of the situation... (The Real World)

And your obviously professional technique...
Quote:
Real world combat shooting is not a game!
(Profound and sage advice.)

No doubt leaves every novitiate in awe...

In fact, the best system is to "shoot thrice not twice"
Firing three rounds
(Two to upper-center-mass and one between the eyebrows)
Using the same tempo that it takes to say the word Mozambique. (Mo - zahm - beek)

Or in this case FOCUS FOCUS FOCUS.
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Old March 24, 2006, 06:24 PM   #10
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Just got back from the range

And this time I saved my target. I also noticed that what I said earlier about my double taps isn't correct, at least not for this trip.

This trip, I think both of my shots go into the same hole instead of being about 1" apart. Unless I'm very bad that my 2nd shots are going off the paper (hmm, I think I'll use a bigger target next range trip).

If I speed up my double taps, i.e. firing the second shot as fast as I can physically do it, the second shot makes its own hole at a few inches away from the first shot.
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Old March 24, 2006, 06:48 PM   #11
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triple tap

pointer is absolutely right.....two center mass....one between the eyes......ergo ..if the BG has body armor...the third shot will hurt him....Triple tap not once...but twice or more until the threat no longer exists.....That is what i was taught....
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Old March 24, 2006, 07:19 PM   #12
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"This trip, I think both of my shots go into the same hole instead of being about 1" apart. "

Better for game playing, less than desirable in the real world.
The second shot 1 inch away was better.
You want to do more damage to the target, not put another bullet into an already damaged area.
1-2 inch seperation is what you want from a double tap, in any of its various incarnations.
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Old March 24, 2006, 08:34 PM   #13
j1132s
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How about scoring?

Actually, I'm more worried about IPSC scoring. They might think the 2nd shot is a miss.

I'm not even sure if my 2nd shot really when into the same hole as the first. But it is so unlikely that it didn't, because the target isn't exactly very small at 24" x 18".

Anyway, I'll use an even bigger target next time, just to be sure.

Here's my last target: 10 shots double tap @ 10 yards. I checked the target after each 2 rounds and verified only 1 new hole was produced.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg dt10_10.jpg (36.7 KB, 408 views)
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Old March 25, 2006, 10:32 PM   #14
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I see three double taps...

What happened to that low round?


Is that DAO?

If so... aim at 2 o'clock and drop the rounds to a position justv above the X-ring...

Or for the game... into it.

Remember that in the real world combat situation you MUST aim at a SPOT on the target... there won't be a "bullseye" on the perp.
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Old March 26, 2006, 06:10 AM   #15
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J1132, It looks like single holes. If you are shooting a double tap @ 10 yards I would be inclined to believe that the second shot is flying completely off. Getting five aimed doubles into the same hole @ 10 yards is no easy feat on its own much less 5 consecutive double taps at that distance. Move your target closer just to make sure.
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Old March 26, 2006, 08:47 AM   #16
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zeroskillz

Where did you go?
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Old March 26, 2006, 11:38 PM   #17
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J, no offense but those aren't double holes. The chances of that happening are so slim as to be near impossible.
The secret to firing any multi-shot string is to fire as fast as you can see the sight. If the sights are aligned, the shot will hit where you aim - can't happen any other way. Start by firing one shot at the target and track the sight (maintain a good sight picture) during recoil. You also prep the trigger (release and take up the slack) during recoil. Once you can consistenly maintian the sight picture, move on to two shots, then three. Practice as often as possible and speed will come naturally.
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Old March 27, 2006, 11:25 AM   #18
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Lurper, no offense taken, and I appreciate all the feedbacks from the group. This group members' suggestions have already helped me shoot much faster and more accurately, and I look forward to continuing my improvement.

Definitely, I was suprised to see such target too. In fact, the low shot on the target is done on purpose to separate it from the rest of the shoots. Just to verify, kind of.

I've been planning to go to the range again and using a larger target. But didn't get a chance yet. I'll probably go today and use a larger target, will also put it closer to verify. Will keep you guys informed.
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Old March 27, 2006, 08:12 PM   #19
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Quote:
THe last thing in the world you should do is shoot SLOWER double taps. Real world combat shooting is not a game!
You can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight. If you're so concentrated on snatching the trigger back as quickly as you can and shank both of your shots, you're still in the predicament you were in before the shooting started, and now you're short 2 rounds.

Shoot as fast as you can score hits. Practice getting your shots close together and put a little hurry on yourself. If your group spreads out, slow down until you pull it in. Get accuracy down first, speed will come on it's own.

Since Mr.Cooper has been referenced in this thread already, I'll make the observation that in his DVC (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas) mantra, I do not think it is a coincidence that speed is the last of the priorities.

-Teuf
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Old March 28, 2006, 12:37 AM   #20
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Here comes the truth

Thanks to threegun, luper, and others, I went to the range today and did some more double tap drills. I moved the target closer to 7 yards from 10, and I used a much larger target (4x bigger).

After I fired my first double tap, it is a humbling discovery to find that extra hole outside of the 7 ring (the left hole). Being in disbelieve, I fired another double tap at the target and found another extra hole outside of the 7 (this time on the right).

After these 2 double taps, I decided to follow a board member's advice of waiting to fire the 2nd shot until I can see my front sight. Following this advice, I put the rest of the holes into this target.

7 yards, 15 double taps (30 rounds).


By following the board members' suggestions, I saved myself lots of useless double tap drills and the embarrassment of arguing w/ the ISPC scorers at my next club match... "It looks like 1 hole, but 2 bullets when thru. I've been practicing it like that all week"

Thanks guys. Looks like I still have a long way to go in this area.
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Old March 28, 2006, 06:36 AM   #21
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J1132, We have all been through this. It is hard to believe that a round could go so astray from seemingly close distances. Well I am one here to admit my share of castration wounds LOL. Do as others have suggested and continue to practice, speed will come. The further the distance the more time, although microseconds, is needed to get good hits. Watch the best pro shooters in the world and even they use more time at distance. Here is Todd Jarretthttp://video.google.com/videoplay?do...32856867071363
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Old March 28, 2006, 01:56 PM   #22
zeroskillz
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Getting better

Thanks for all the suggestions and advice!

I've burned about 1000 rounds now over a couple trips to the range practicing. My double taps are pretty consistently within 4", about half the time 2". I started by slowing down, which allowed for a flash 2nd sight picture, that helped. I sped up for a 'true' double tap and found that I had been jerking the gun down to try and compensate for the recoil to quickly (with weak hand). Once I relaxed and just pulled two shots off as fat as I could, the groups tightened up alot. I also noticed how much my weak hand affects the second shot--it will pull it left or down, push it up or right, depending on where I'm putting the pressure on my strong hand. So I've been practicing alot trying to get the right grip into 'muscle memory'.

I worked on the mozambique drill for a bit and then got scolded by the range officer. Apparently ddouble taps are OK but mozambiqueing (3 shots) is considered rapid fire and a no-no there:barf: . Any suggestions on to convince them otherwise?
Thanks again!
-Zeke
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Old March 28, 2006, 02:02 PM   #23
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Go to a different range LOL. I once befriended the manager of a local range and he allowed me to shoot however I wanted as long as the range was empty. He didn't want the yahoo's that couldn't shoot straight destroying his range thinking they could rapid fire because of me.
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Old April 1, 2006, 07:01 PM   #24
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j1132s and zeroskillz

Good job for both of you...

To stabilize your weapon push forward with your trigger hand and pull back with your support hand

Now start putting two in the upper "9" on your target...
And then one in the eyeline.

Good shooting to both of you...
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